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Media => Single-Player RPGs => Topic started by: Holykael1 on November 21, 2013, 01:43:08 PM

Title: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Holykael1 on November 21, 2013, 01:43:08 PM
Similar to the other topic that was made for the top 20 psp rpg's list, let's discuss the recently released top 20 ds games from the website.
I am overall very pleased by this list though I would change the order of the games around a little bit. While I think TWEWY is a very awesome and innovative game, I personally wouldnt put it at number 1.

 Im also a little bit disappointed that Apollo Justice was chosen over Trials and Tribulations. While Apollo Justice is technically a better "Game" and actually my 2nd favorite in the series, I dont think it compares to the masterpiece of a storyline that Trials and Tribulations delivered, it was more memorable and there was more in the way of character development. I am also surprised to see FF IV above Chrono trigger, I guess it was positioned that way because of the major update they made to the game with the new graphics and whatnot(I would argue though that they are atrociously ugly 3d models, ff7 looks better than that imo.), also the game is just very slow paced compared to it's 2d counterpart(FF IV complete collection is the definitive version of FF IV imo).

My top 5 would be: 999-PW:AA:Trials and Tribulations-Castlevania Portrait of Ruin-Chrono Trigger-Ghost Trick(this with the 1 game per series restriction). I havent played Order of Ecclesia though, so maybe I will enjoy it more than PoR(I like PoR better than SOTN though)


Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Klutz64 on November 21, 2013, 01:56:24 PM
Not a whole lot I would change on there. I'd personally bump Order of Eclessia up a bit, but I don't think it's normal how much I love that game. I'd remove Tactics A2 from the list entirely for committing the SRPG sin of making it nigh impossible to level up alternate characters. I'd probably replace it with Rune Factory 3. And I would find a place for FFXII Revenant Wings. I really enjoyed it, shoot me.

I'd also switch around TWEWY and Devil Survivor, as I felt the latter had better gameplay and did a better job of capturing the "Trapped in an urban environment with no way out" atmosphere
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Darilon on November 21, 2013, 02:00:23 PM
I was a bit sad that Etrian Odyssey, Rune Factory or Rhapsody didn't show up but I suppose it makes sense. Also surprised Apollo was the one you chose from the series.

It was a good list though. Glad to see games like Professor Layton Unwound future and Ghost Trick there. 
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Ramza on November 21, 2013, 04:09:44 PM
I wonder if Apollo Justice was chosen over 1-3 because 1-3 were GBA games ported to DS (making no use of DS functionality, save for yelling "objection" into the mic) and Apollo Justice in contrast used the touch screen in all the fun detective-y ways that we saw in the bonus mission of the first game. But then, other ports/remakes made the list (including FFIV, which is ... well, it was a significant change in gameplay, so I guess I can get with that).

But in terms of story and importance to the plot of the key characters, it's hands-down no-question, the end of Trials and Tribulations was phenomenal.

Were it my own personal list, TWEWY wouldn't be on it (as I didn't play it), Rhapsody would be in the top ten, 999 would be #1 without blinking an eye (holy crap 999 I love you so much forever!). I'm glad they also chose Clash of Heroes, which was a great game (that's also on Steam) ... they came to me for the writeup, and it made me feel special.

I will also say that I thought Magical Starsign was surprisingly good.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Starmongoose on November 21, 2013, 04:17:36 PM
Wow, what a list.

Those guys at RPGfan sure know their stuff. ;)
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Holykael1 on November 21, 2013, 04:24:45 PM
But in terms of story and importance to the plot of the key characters, it's hands-down no-question, the end of Trials and Tribulations was phenomenal.
 999 would be #1 without blinking an eye (holy crap 999 I love you so much forever!).

I love you!
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Kevadu on November 21, 2013, 04:40:45 PM
Tales of Hearts?  I didn't realize you guys even considered imports for these lists.

I mean, if I were going to count imports then my PSP list would look very different...
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Mickeymac92 on November 21, 2013, 04:59:38 PM
Yeah, That Tales of Hearts threw me for a loop. Only complaint I have besides TWEWY getting #1 (only time I'll ever complain about placement is when TWEWY's involved. :P). Not that I don't think it's a good game, I just don't think it's fair to list imports. I'm also surprised Apollo Justice won out among the Phoenix Wrights. Not that I'm complaining, if anything it keeps things interesting. I hate lists that are too predictable.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Andrew on November 21, 2013, 05:04:51 PM
We discussed whether or not to include Tales of Hearts for quite some time. Ultimately, I think (if I remember correctly) we decided to go with it since we had reviewed it. [Disclaimer: My memory is not always the best.]
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on November 21, 2013, 05:08:05 PM
I'm never one to talk about what order things appeared in -- I'm mostly happy about what 'ranks' and doesnt.

I personally preferred The Last Window to Hotel Dusk (though both were excellent).

I have no problem with Apollo Justice there instead (whether it is or isn't because OUR original DS titles were Japan's GBA titles).  But I loved Apollo's character and Trucy was a great sidekick (and it was nice "dropping in" on 'Nick' instead of him as the POV character).  I'm actually really sad they didn't bring back the ability to look at evidence in 3D in Dual Destinies though...  Godot was a fantastic prosecutor though.

Twewy (best abbrev. ever) I thought is a solid title.  I loved the gameplay, but I -H-A-T-E-D- controlling two characters, AI aside, it was a pain to still monitor two at once.  But as far as "fresh" ideas go, TWEWY really came out on top when it was a bit "in" to make fun of Square Enix around this time (which started the ugly chain of a million FF4 remakes, ugly ports, and cashing in on the 13 series).  That being said though, I did think FF4-DS was fantastic, and I admired it more than the "upgraded 2D" versions.

Radiant is awesome, glad it's there; it was certainly my DS swan song.

999 is fucking baller.  I beat the game at 4am and had trouble sleeping well after with the amount of "whammies" that ending sequence throws.

Seeing Tales of Hearts was cool, and I'm not surprised Innocence didn't rank in comparison.

And woo Layton
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Monsoon on November 21, 2013, 05:20:28 PM
In that case, I'm surprised that Sora no Kiseki SC wasn't considered for the PSP list.  Whatever.  You guys seem to really like Hearts.  A few of my thoughts on the list:

Bowser's Inside Story is too low.  I'd put that in my personal top 5.  It's hilarious, the combat has good variety, and the story and set-pieces are completely bat**** insane.  I'd rank it higher than... pretty much any of the SMT games you put there.  

Trace Memory is not a good game.  This is the Riviera of the list.  The DS has several good traditional adventure  games / visual novels, but that is not one of them.  I have no idea why it's on the list at all, let alone 15th.  I'd put Disgaea DS, Phantom Hourglass, Revenant Wings, 4 Heroes of Light, or Inazuma Eleven ahead of Trace Memory.  

When it came to picking one game out of a series, you chose well.  Order of Ecclesia is my favorite DS Castlevania.  Unwound Future is my favorite DS Layton.  HGSS is my favorite of the DS Pokeymans.  V is my favorite of the DS Dragon Quests.  Bowser's Inside Story is better than Partners in Time.  Basically all I'm saying is that I agree with a large number of your sorta-sillly series-specific selections.  Pretty much all of them other than Apollo Justice.  

Where is Phantom Hourglass?  I'm not saying it should be in the top ten, and I am WELL aware of the frustrating and/or bad parts of the game (**** YOU TEMPLE OF THE OCEAN KING).  However, you guys gave it a 92% in your review (which was several years ago, but still) and I definitely think it's better than Trace Memory or Clash of Heroes.  

For giggles, Monsoon's top five:
5. Dragon Quest IX: Sentinels of the Starry Skies
4. Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
3. 999: 9 Hours, 9 Persons, 9 Doors
2. Radiant Historia
1. Dragon Quest V: Hand of the Heavenly Bride

(I really like Dragon Quest.  IV and VI would also be in my top fifteen).  

EDIT: And sorry Dice, you are incorrect.  Best abbreviation is for Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin.  PoRNDS. 
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dincrest on November 21, 2013, 06:49:53 PM
Trace Memory is not a good game.  It's a great game. 
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Aeolus on November 21, 2013, 07:18:25 PM
And while I know nobody cares about them, here's my opinions anyways.

Golden Sun shouldn't have been on that list. The original games are overrated as hell and Dark Dawn wasn't much better.

Bowser's Inside Story is way too low, especially in light of the many VNs that got rated over it (admittedly, I'm not the biggest fan of VNs given the whole "I don't find the writing amazing enough to offset the complete and total lack of gameplay."). This should've been at least within top the 15.

Tales of Hearts, lolwut? Call me when it actually makes it outside of Japan.

VNs. Half of these should have never made the list and should make room for actual games. That said, I'd say keep Hotel Dusk, 999, Ghost Trick. Maybe not where they are but keep them on the list.

Chrono Trigger is debatable. Obviously it should be lower just by virtue of only having portability as the only meaningful change made to this particular port. The rest of the changes are the usual Squeenix cramming in that ROM Hack Supra Dungeon +1 and littering it with Swords of Infinity +1. No bonus points for the useless monster arena and terribly shoe-horned in extra ending that exists solely to do a hilariously bad job tying this game into Chrono Cross.

FFIV I'd rank lower, but not by much. The fact that it's an actual remake (although maybe not the best remake, I would still rank it a better job than either FFIII or either of the FE games got) does justify it's presence on the list, but top ten is a bit much.

Radiant Historia should've made top 3 easily, shoddy production values be dammed. It's one of the biggest game changers in JRPGs in the last decade, losing out to an Ace Attorney game is unacceptable.

DQV and Devil Survivor. I can't say anything on Devil Survivor as I haven't played it yet but I do suspect that it this weren't SMTFan it wouldn't have made top 10 let alone top 3. DQV is a port of a remake, but admittedly its also the first time it's left Japan and its a damn shame that it took so long, I have no beef with it's placement.

And TWEWY. Yeah, objectively this is probably the correct decision, but only because it has better production values than RH got.


And for notable absences. FF:4HoL, maybe Infinite Space, and either Knights in the Nightmare or Rondo of Swords or VP: Covenant of the Plume or DQVI or FE:New Mystery of the Emblem (although debatable it did receive a fanslation) or LoZ:Spirit Tracks or Pokemon Black/White. One or two of the above (man, there were a lot of mediocre and/or stranded in Japan RPGs for the DS; there's like another half a dozen games that could've made the list if they had just left Japan (yes, including ToH)).


Ninja Edit: I will say thank you for not including more than SMT:SJ for dungeon crawlers. Those fuckers were everywhere and most were mediocre as hell.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Mickeymac92 on November 21, 2013, 07:52:13 PM
Personally, If there's any game on that list that deserved to be where it is, it'd be Devil Survivor. #3 just seems perfect for it in my eyes.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: TiamatNM on November 21, 2013, 07:58:08 PM
Infinite Space shoulda been on the list.  For me that's #1

...and Golden Sun DD is hot garbage.  I was baffled by all the positive reviews I saw
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Starmongoose on November 21, 2013, 08:00:11 PM
Everyones a critic.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on November 21, 2013, 08:08:20 PM
Everyones a critic.

I'm kinda cringing at a few of the titles people DID want to see...Or at the very least, they had one good feature amongst many other problems (Rondo of Swords was a cool idea but felt kinda gross and unpolished...and it was freaking hard).
(http://makeameme.org/media/templates/250/puffin.jpg)

Why all the hate for Dark Dawn?  I thought it was alright.  I think the "ending" is the biggest offence given the title's current status. :P
Then again, I might be cooler with it since I paid ten bucks and got a pretty good ride out of it
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Tooker on November 21, 2013, 08:38:54 PM
Everyones a critic.

I know I am!
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Aeolus on November 21, 2013, 09:20:52 PM
Everyones a critic.

I'm kinda cringing at a few of the titles people DID want to see...Or at the very least, they had one good feature amongst many other problems (Rondo of Swords was a cool idea but felt kinda gross and unpolished...and it was freaking hard).
(http://makeameme.org/media/templates/250/puffin.jpg)

Why all the hate for Dark Dawn?  I thought it was alright.  I think the "ending" is the biggest offence given the title's current status. :P
Then again, I might be cooler with it since I paid ten bucks and got a pretty good ride out of it


I'll admit, I was kinda reaching with that one. As I mentioned earlier, there were surprisingly few non-dungeon crawler, non-gimmicky bullshit laden RPGs for the DS. I mean, look at Black Sigil. It wanted to be a CT clone so badly but wound up stupidly long-winded, wasn't really balanced at all, and even felt like it was only play tested enough to determine that it was possible to beat it without the game crashing or turning into an unwinnable mess. Meanwhile there were games like Soma Bringer (admittedly a dungeon-crawler but far better than even Summon Knight: Twin Age let alone half the other dungeon crawlers on the system, and probably on par or even better than even EO3) or Metal Max 2/3 that would've kicked ass, yet they couldn't achieve escape velocity from Japan's orbit (not like that stopped ToH for some reason).

As for GS:DD, the problem is that it was 'only alright' at best. It's been over 15 years since Beyond the Beyond was made and the only thing I felt Camelot has learned since then is to make their games piss easy and flashy to compensate for their continuing inability to balance a game.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Mickeymac92 on November 21, 2013, 09:41:08 PM
I think the only game that I'd want to put on there that's not on there is The Dark Spire. As far as Wizardry-likes go, it's easily the best I've played. I know it's not a very popular game around here, though, so I wasn't expecting it to appear on the list.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Kevadu on November 21, 2013, 10:33:14 PM
I'll admit, I was kinda reaching with that one. As I mentioned earlier, there were surprisingly few non-dungeon crawler, non-gimmicky bullshit laden RPGs for the DS. I mean, look at Black Sigil. It wanted to be a CT clone so badly but wound up stupidly long-winded, wasn't really balanced at all, and even felt like it was only play tested enough to determine that it was possible to beat it without the game crashing or turning into an unwinnable mess. Meanwhile there were games like Soma Bringer (admittedly a dungeon-crawler but far better than even Summon Knight: Twin Age let alone half the other dungeon crawlers on the system, and probably on par or even better than even EO3) or Metal Max 2/3 that would've kicked ass, yet they couldn't achieve escape velocity from Japan's orbit (not like that stopped ToH for some reason).

As for GS:DD, the problem is that it was 'only alright' at best. It's been over 15 years since Beyond the Beyond was made and the only thing I felt Camelot has learned since then is to make their games piss easy and flashy to compensate for their continuing inability to balance a game.

You know, I've had this very argument with people before and they all seemed to think I was crazy.  "The DS was great for JRPGs" is a mantra that people repeat so much they don't even question it anymore.  But when you really look at the catalog...if you're not into pure dungeon crawlers (which I'm not, really) there are very few stand-out titles.  There may be a lot of games but most of them were pretty forgettable.  Personally I think the PSP had a much better selection of JRPGs but I've been called a heretic for saying that...

But I'm not surprised by the number of VNs on the list because there were some pretty good ones on the DS.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Yoda on November 22, 2013, 12:54:31 AM
I like a lot of the games on this list. But what drew me to this forum so many years ago were fresh opinions on Jrpgs. As a fella that was at that time returning to gaming after quite the sabbatical; I missed the PS2 generation. Well except for some xbox haps with my buddy. So when I was researching rpgs I found this site. The SMT series was highly touted, DDS among that, and I quickly bought a DS to play Strange Journey on a long train ride I was to be taking. (see the 1st post in the now legendary What's the Haps? thread.

As much as I can appreciate why some of you enjoy those particular entries into the SMT series... I can't stand them. I love the interface and presentation of Strange Journey but man I could not get into it. Had I played this game in grade school, or high school I probably would've dominated it and soaked 100 hours into it. However as a single guy trying to finish school, work full time, keep a nice and orderly apartment and car, and date some women that's not what I'm looking for in a game anymore.

However, researching THAT game has led me here and provided me with some solid online companions and great insight into a hobby I neglected for years (prior to being here again).

I loved 999 even though I stopped just short of beating it. I'll pick it up again, though. Ghost Trick was big fun too.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: MeshGearFox on November 22, 2013, 01:29:42 AM
@yoda: Strange Journey kind of sucks, and it's only long because of various bullshit reasons (hidden doors, being exceedingly luck based in some of the side quests, nonsense difficulty progression).

Although as much as I used to be an Atlus fanboy I think there's maybe like five or six total SMT-related games I like. And even then only Nocturne and Raidou 2 I don't have reservations about.

Quote
It wanted to be a CT clone so badly but wound up stupidly long-winded, wasn't really balanced at all, and even felt like it was only play tested enough to determine that it was possible to beat it without the game crashing or turning into an unwinnable mess.

It's a CT clone. Of course it's unbalanced and not really tested.

If I had to come up with a favorite DS RPG list, it'd be something like DQV, TWEWY, Front Mission, Contact, Radiant Historia, Bowser, Pokemon Conquest, and Rocket Slime?

I didn't care for Etrian Odyssey, partially because it did a lot of the same bullshit Dark Souls does, partially because it felt reductionist and grindy. Haven't cared for any of the RPG Castevanias because the RPG mechanics just end up breaking everything. Devil Survivor was too crashy for me to want to ever play it again. I don't consider visual novels to be games. I really don't get what's so special about CT outside of the music and graphics.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Aeolus on November 22, 2013, 03:50:54 AM
Pokemon Conquest, and Rocket Slime?

I forgot about these two. Rocket Slime in particular was criminally underrated.

As for Front Mission, the reason why I didn't bring that up was because the game was hilariously unbalanced. Rockets, Dual-wielding Pistols, and the eventual ability to target specific body parts just allowed you to one shot anybody, and enemies rarely if ever had anything really close to this in the main game.


I'll admit, I was kinda reaching with that one. As I mentioned earlier, there were surprisingly few non-dungeon crawler, non-gimmicky bullshit laden RPGs for the DS. I mean, look at Black Sigil. It wanted to be a CT clone so badly but wound up stupidly long-winded, wasn't really balanced at all, and even felt like it was only play tested enough to determine that it was possible to beat it without the game crashing or turning into an unwinnable mess. Meanwhile there were games like Soma Bringer (admittedly a dungeon-crawler but far better than even Summon Knight: Twin Age let alone half the other dungeon crawlers on the system, and probably on par or even better than even EO3) or Metal Max 2/3 that would've kicked ass, yet they couldn't achieve escape velocity from Japan's orbit (not like that stopped ToH for some reason).

As for GS:DD, the problem is that it was 'only alright' at best. It's been over 15 years since Beyond the Beyond was made and the only thing I felt Camelot has learned since then is to make their games piss easy and flashy to compensate for their continuing inability to balance a game.

You know, I've had this very argument with people before and they all seemed to think I was crazy.  "The DS was great for JRPGs" is a mantra that people repeat so much they don't even question it anymore.  But when you really look at the catalog...if you're not into pure dungeon crawlers (which I'm not, really) there are very few stand-out titles.  There may be a lot of games but most of them were pretty forgettable.  Personally I think the PSP had a much better selection of JRPGs but I've been called a heretic for saying that...

But I'm not surprised by the number of VNs on the list because there were some pretty good ones on the DS.

The problem with the DS is that it was where Squeenix really started to lose it (well actually, they started to lose it back during the PS2/GBA era but they still put effort and a shitload of cash into their mothership titles on the PS2; when the GBA died and they had to start focusing on the DS, they pretty much delegated it to ports/remakes, compilation entries, and experimental titles with DQIX being the only real exception to this) and the attempts at filling the void were largely met with lame dungeon crawlers, crappy SRPGs, or remakes. There weren't a lot of original CRPGs or good SRPGs, and of what was there, many wound up stranded in Japan. And I agree with you that the PSP had the better RPG selection that generation. Unfortunately, most of them came out after the PSP had died outside of Japan.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Darilon on November 22, 2013, 04:33:56 AM
Ninja Edit: I will say thank you for not including more than SMT:SJ for dungeon crawlers. Those fuckers were everywhere and most were mediocre as hell.

Are you talking about Mazes of Fate and Warlock of fire top mountain or everything outside of Strange Journey? I loved the Etrian Odyssey series although admittedly it is what introduced me into dungeon crawlers. Dark Spire is actually pretty decent. I wouldn't put it on the same level as EO and SJ but I had a lot of fun with it. Not worthy of the top 20 games though. I was not a great fan of it but my friends seemed to really like Orcs and Elves. Can't think of any others for the DS unless you want to include the top down one, Dungeon Explorer.

Then there are rougelikes but they are a completely different kettle of fish.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Ranadiel on November 22, 2013, 07:07:26 AM
Radiant Historia is the best RPG to come out for I don't know how many years. I am offended by the fact the fact that it was not given the number 1 spot.  I hope all of you choke on a cat. Harumph. :p

But seriously, Radiant Historia did deserve better than 6th.

You know, I've had this very argument with people before and they all seemed to think I was crazy.  "The DS was great for JRPGs" is a mantra that people repeat so much they don't even question it anymore.  But when you really look at the catalog...if you're not into pure dungeon crawlers (which I'm not, really) there are very few stand-out titles.  There may be a lot of games but most of them were pretty forgettable.  Personally I think the PSP had a much better selection of JRPGs but I've been called a heretic for saying that...

But I'm not surprised by the number of VNs on the list because there were some pretty good ones on the DS.
You know it is weird. I'm pretty sure that I have previously thought to myself that the DS was where all the good JRPGs had moved, but I just reviewed my DS collection.....and the selection I have sucks. A few good games followed with a bunch of games I never want to play again. Kind of sad really.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: insertnamehere on November 22, 2013, 12:56:07 PM
Did you guys distinguish between RPGs and games for VNs and graphic adventures could make the list?
Quote
Top 20 PSP RPGs
Top 20 DS Games
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Tooker on November 22, 2013, 01:03:23 PM
No, we just didn't have anything other than RPGs make the cut on PSP.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Holykael1 on November 22, 2013, 01:15:05 PM
I would also like to refer that I havent played some of the high profile games on the ds like SMT DS,SJ and Radiant Historia(SOON!), thinking a little bit more I think I would replace Chrono Trigger with TWEWY on my top 5 list.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Aeolus on November 22, 2013, 01:44:32 PM
Ninja Edit: I will say thank you for not including more than SMT:SJ for dungeon crawlers. Those fuckers were everywhere and most were mediocre as hell.

Are you talking about Mazes of Fate and Warlock of fire top mountain or everything outside of Strange Journey? I loved the Etrian Odyssey series although admittedly it is what introduced me into dungeon crawlers. Dark Spire is actually pretty decent. I wouldn't put it on the same level as EO and SJ but I had a lot of fun with it. Not worthy of the top 20 games though. I was not a great fan of it but my friends seemed to really like Orcs and Elves. Can't think of any others for the DS unless you want to include the top down one, Dungeon Explorer.

Then there are rougelikes but they are a completely different kettle of fish.

I was referring to games like Summon Night: Twin Age, Children of Mana, and From the Abyss in terms of games that are nothing but dungeons even if they play like ARPGs instead of either roguelikes like Shinren or Izuma or true dungeon crawlers like The Dark Spire, the EO series, and so on. Basically, I just settled on using dungeon crawlers since because that's what these games essentially consist of, monotonous crawling through randomly generated dungeons in a hollow facsimile of gameplay.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Starmongoose on November 22, 2013, 06:04:38 PM
Is Radiant Historia really that good? I feel like I got pretty far into it and I was never elevated above "playable rpg" for me. Did I give up before it got good? Does the story have some amazing revelation I hadn't seen?
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on November 22, 2013, 06:13:20 PM

[/quote]
Is Radiant Historia really that good? I feel like I got pretty far into it and I was never elevated above "playable rpg" for me. Did I give up before it got good? Does the story have some amazing revelation I hadn't seen?


Everyones a critic.

But seriously:
I kinda just liked the way it was written; I didn't feel it was childish, over-bearing or too heavy-handed (I was thinking a lot of J-titles were at the time too) and I liked how the first decision completely changed what happens in both timelines and still managed to create both diverse yet interesting plot lines (that address consequences for poor decisions through some weird/sad alternate endings and playing it up with needing to revisit people at certain times).  The battle system was simple, but I liked hitting multiple enemies A LOT (and I've got little patience for 'traditional' turn-based stuff these days).  The music was damn nice too.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Starmongoose on November 22, 2013, 06:18:23 PM
Hey, I legit am a critic. :P

I'll replay it some day, I'm not saying I didn't like it, it was good in its own way, I just can't say I was captured.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Andrew on November 22, 2013, 06:29:45 PM
I hated Radiant Historia. :P

*prepares barricade*
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: danholo on November 22, 2013, 06:30:19 PM
Why does the Top 20 list say there's no cutscenes in Chrono Trigger DS? I just played it and it certainly has the same FMVs as the Playstation version.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Starmongoose on November 22, 2013, 06:33:06 PM
I hated Radiant Historia. :P

*prepares barricade*

i'll defend you brother.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on November 22, 2013, 06:40:03 PM
Hey, I legit am a critic. :P

I'll replay it some day, I'm not saying I didn't like it, it was good in its own way, I just can't say I was captured.

The cutscenes aren't particularly exciting and the graphics are all over the place... but I liked it because it felt real, the people and conversations were terribly over-the-top and the political aspect felt realistic (for the most part; magical elements and "sand disease" aside).  
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: MeshGearFox on November 22, 2013, 06:50:33 PM
Quote
As for Front Mission, the reason why I didn't bring that up was because the game was hilariously unbalanced. Rockets, Dual-wielding Pistols, and the eventual ability to target specific body parts just allowed you to one shot anybody, and enemies rarely if ever had anything really close to this in the main game.

Also there's no point in experimenting with the other chassis/body parts except for whatever the best one is at any given moment, but whatever, it's still a lot more balanced than FM3, although apparently I ended up on the completely bullshit story branch in that. Anyway I still LIKED FM1 a lot for some reason.

I'd also like to point out that the retcons specific to the DS version of CT make especially little sense.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Kevadu on November 22, 2013, 07:45:00 PM
I enjoyed Radiant Historia quite a bit, but I wouldn't say I fell in love with it or anything.  I mean, it's no Trails in the Sky ;)

(I always end up comparing the two since they came out around the same time...)
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on November 22, 2013, 07:55:25 PM
I enjoyed Radiant Historia quite a bit, but I wouldn't say I fell in love with it or anything.  I mean, it's no Trails in the Sky ;)

(I always end up comparing the two since they came out around the same time...)

I thought both more than adequately told excellent stories, or at the very least, had some damn good writing.
Trails did so with a more predictable plot, but characters that were incredibly endearing.
Radiant had a more complicated plot and characters that fit (but not always entertained).

My $0.02
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Klutz64 on November 22, 2013, 07:58:56 PM
I thought Radiant Historia was an excellent game, but I also feel like it gets a slight boost from enthusiasts for also being a bit of a hidden gem.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dincrest on November 22, 2013, 08:04:16 PM
+1 to whomever mentioned Rocket Slime.  That game was loads of fun and easily my favorite Dragon Quest game.  If we're going to offer opinions, I will say that despite my admiration and respect for the Dragon Quest series and all it's done for JRPGs, I simply could not get into it.  Even the best titles in the series that everyone says are sublime examples of the JRPG experience just didn't do that intangible "it" for me. 

Loved Rocket Slime, though.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: jj984jj on November 22, 2013, 09:07:41 PM
Golden Sun was chosen over all three Etrian Odyssey games? What in the world?
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Lard on November 22, 2013, 10:08:09 PM
I have a real problem with remakes on these types of lists because they're generally included due to nostalgia more than anything else.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on November 22, 2013, 10:30:18 PM
I have a real problem with remakes on these types of lists because they're generally included due to nostalgia more than anything else.

Agreed.  I'm glad when they stay in the higher parts of a list at best; butt I don't like them as Top 3 when some reviewers do that.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: MeshGearFox on November 22, 2013, 11:21:05 PM
Radiant Historia was interesting to me because even your wrong choices led to end games that could be informative or neat. So even though you often only had one right choice and then a wrong one, the decision still FELT meaningful. Also the combat felt very... I don't know, it was more hands on.

TWEWY also felt like a game you were supposed to /play/ to me. My issue with a lot of RPGs is that they feel like something you're supposed to admire more distantly than /play/. TWEWY was a game I got into fight not because I NEEDED to but because I WANTED to. A game that was unabashedly a GAME.

I'm okay with remakes when they're substantially different -- DQ5 on the DS changes a lot from the SNES version. CT was pretty much a straight port, though.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Kevadu on November 23, 2013, 01:26:35 AM
TWEWY also felt like a game you were supposed to /play/ to me. My issue with a lot of RPGs is that they feel like something you're supposed to admire more distantly than /play/. TWEWY was a game I got into fight not because I NEEDED to but because I WANTED to. A game that was unabashedly a GAME.

Interesting.  While I really liked TWEWY's story and presentation, I hated the actual combat, which was the bulk of the gameplay.  Sure it was original, but it didn't play well.  Felt more like something I had to struggle through to get to the story bits which were what I actually cared about...
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on November 23, 2013, 01:35:22 AM
TWEWY also felt like a game you were supposed to /play/ to me. My issue with a lot of RPGs is that they feel like something you're supposed to admire more distantly than /play/. TWEWY was a game I got into fight not because I NEEDED to but because I WANTED to. A game that was unabashedly a GAME.

Interesting.  While I really liked TWEWY's story and presentation, I hated the actual combat, which was the bulk of the gameplay.  Sure it was original, but it didn't play well.  Felt more like something I had to struggle through to get to the story bits which were what I actually cared about...

100% to Kev.  I loved everything else, and I liked even the idea for the battle system, but it became chaotic too often and upgraded a headache I'd have that day to a full migrane.  I think that's why even though I love the game a lot, I doubt I'd want to play it again any time soon.

And Shiki, eat a goddamn steak.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: MeshGearFox on November 23, 2013, 02:02:09 AM
TWEWY also felt like a game you were supposed to /play/ to me. My issue with a lot of RPGs is that they feel like something you're supposed to admire more distantly than /play/. TWEWY was a game I got into fight not because I NEEDED to but because I WANTED to. A game that was unabashedly a GAME.

Interesting.  While I really liked TWEWY's story and presentation, I hated the actual combat, which was the bulk of the gameplay.  Sure it was original, but it didn't play well.  Felt more like something I had to struggle through to get to the story bits which were what I actually cared about...

I probably agree. Spoilers: Sometimes I feel like voicing some particular opinion -- whether its one I actually hold or not -- and then I just apply it to whatever game was most recently brought up. You can make a fun game out of figuring out which celebrity video game journalist I'm aping at the time!!!

Actually I think I gave up one TWEWY towards the end of the first seven day cycle because it was mostly just finding dudes telling you exactly where to go and then doing whatever they told you to. There wasn't much room for figuring anything out.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Ranadiel on November 23, 2013, 08:20:39 AM
Is Radiant Historia really that good? I feel like I got pretty far into it and I was never elevated above "playable rpg" for me. Did I give up before it got good? Does the story have some amazing revelation I hadn't seen?
I don't recall the game having any kind of "amazing revelation" at any late points in the game. It did have some revelations later in the game that made sense and added some interesting layers to the earlier parts of the game. However I loved the game before that. As Dice said, it was a well written game. They had an interesting game mechanic (a book that lets you travel through your personal history) and they use it to its full effect. It handles the mechanic perfectly, giving you countless bad ends where you get to stumble around as you try and find the proper path to saving the world. I guess it really just boils down to being a well written game with an interesting mechanic (the time travel) that is done extremely well.

On the topic of TWEWY, I thought it was an alright game. The story really only picks up around the second "round" or w/e you want to call them. The battle system however was quite unpleasant. I do not have fond memories of the game and would call it a above average game at best.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Holykael1 on November 23, 2013, 01:09:24 PM
Are the Fire emblem games on the ds any good?
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Darilon on November 23, 2013, 01:36:09 PM
Are the Fire emblem games on the ds any good?


I thought Shadow Dragon was kind of average. Awakening for 3DS is awesome though. I also liked the GBA ones. Out of all of them Shadow Dragon for DS was my least favourite. It is a remake of the first though so it is lacking certain features available in later games.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Monsoon on November 23, 2013, 02:31:16 PM
It's probably not counted as an RPG for the purpose of this site, but Advance Wars: Dual Strike is waaaay better than Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon.  Use that game for your DS strategy fix.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Aeolus on November 23, 2013, 04:29:19 PM
Radiant Historia was interesting to me because even your wrong choices led to end games that could be informative or neat. So even though you often only had one right choice and then a wrong one, the decision still FELT meaningful. Also the combat felt very... I don't know, it was more hands on.

Not only that but many of the bad ends in RH aren't so much the result of not just doing what the developers wanted you to do but because the other alternative was usually too inefficient to take and still prevent the doomsday scenario from playing out. Basically the game was really good at justifying why you just done fucked up (even if there weren't any dead man walking scenarios for you to play through). On that note, I will reiterate that RH's biggest failing was its lack of a budget. Looking at the game's official artwork, you can see that several locations looked a lot more impressive than they appeared in the game, moreover the aforementioned dead ends could've been expanded on or additional branches could've been added to give alternate perspectives on some of the events of the game and to make choices other than the first lead in different directions.

Quote
I'm okay with remakes when they're substantially different -- DQ5 on the DS changes a lot from the SNES version. CT was pretty much a straight port, though.

Technically speaking DQV is a port of the PS2 remake but it should count anyways since unless you've played the original through emulation or can read Japanese and imported the PS2 remake, it would've been your first experience with either version of the game. Whereas CT has had plenty of opportunities to be played and the differences between this specific version and previous are insubstantial at best. Even cases like FFIV can be justified by being rebuilt using a different engine and featuring different mechanical quirks like fewer enemies being encountered during battles and being made stronger as a result.


Are the Fire emblem games on the ds any good?


I thought Shadow Dragon was kind of average. Awakening for 3DS is awesome though. I also liked the GBA ones. Out of all of them Shadow Dragon for DS was my least favourite. It is a remake of the first though so it is lacking certain features available in later games.

Admittedly they weren't the best remakes. Much like the FF3 DS remake, the FE DS remakes tried to implement newer mechanics into games that weren't really balanced around them leading to such hilarity as Sedgar and Wolf becoming monstrous tanks after being reclassed into Generals and given a few levels to make use of their insane growths, Ceada and her four or so Win Spears making chumps of the game's massive number of mounted and armored forces thrown your way, the MU having such insane growths and 8 prologue chapters to use them in to make the other 75+ characters in New Mystery look like chumps, the wireless items/shops for ridiculous shit like Growth Drops, the Rainbow Potion, buyable Brave weaponry, and so on. Admittedly, I'd say as questionable as either FE DS game was, they're still better than the FF 3 remake by a country mile (the only changes that were pants-on-head retarded was increasing the stat caps on every class to reflect the GBA era games yet not do a thing for the bases making late joining characters useless by comparison, and making the difficult to access Falcon Knight class comparatively useless to the Dragon Knight class; whereas FF3 tried to make starting jobs more useful by nerfing the fuck out of the later jobs as well as providing an exclusive piece of gear if you stuck with a class for all 99 job levels, and to ensure that they'll nerf your stats for a bunch of battles after changing jobs even when you need to mass change jobs to handle the dungeon literally built around being in a certain job).

As for Shadow Dragon's Gaiden chapters requiring killing off the majority of your army to access, as lamentable as it is, I still have to give it props for helping break my habit of trying to save and use everybody evenly that I tend to fall into when I play FE games. It's encouraged me to try out specific runs based on certain arbitrary criteria like Marth + all females or Marth + all bald men. It's unfortunate that said requirements plus the lack of supports has everyone bent out of shape over the game (especially since Awakening's a good example of how tons of supports doesn't necessarily make the game that much better).
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Sagacious-T on November 23, 2013, 10:14:40 PM
This list makes me feel weird.

I feel like there should be more but in reality the DS's library of RPG-esque games is really weak.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Tooker on November 23, 2013, 10:18:14 PM
This list actually started out as 100 games that we thought had some shot of making the cut, so we definitely could have made a bigger list and not been embarrassed by any of the games we chose for it, but 20's a good stopping point.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: MeshGearFox on November 24, 2013, 03:53:07 AM
This list makes me feel weird.

I feel like there should be more but in reality the DS's library of RPG-esque games is really weak.

Browsing RPGfan's review section, I think the reality of the situation is that there just were not that many RPGs released period during the last generation.

--- edit ---

I am surprised EO isn't on the list, though. I don't really care for them but they are kind of iconic to the system.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: smmac41 on November 24, 2013, 10:57:44 AM
I find I very difficult to agree with this list as half the games aren't even RPGs. To add to this, some of the RPGs are ports or graphical remakes (i.e.. Dragon Quest V, VI, Final Fantasy IV). All of which don't belong on this list.

Saying all of that, I simply haven't played enough NDS RPGs to make a definitive list.

My Top 5 Nintendo DS RPGs (I've played) are:

05      The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass

04      Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor

03      Suikoden Tierkreis

02      Etrian Odyssey (I)

No. 1      Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: MeshGearFox on November 24, 2013, 11:44:28 AM
Quote
I find I very difficult to agree with this list as half the games aren't even RPGs. To add to this, some of the RPGs are ports or graphical remakes (i.e.. Dragon Quest V, VI, Final Fantasy IV). All of which don't belong on this list.

FFIVDS doesn't really play like the original. It's a different game as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on November 24, 2013, 11:52:20 AM
You guys doing the other system as well?
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Tooker on November 24, 2013, 11:59:23 AM
half the games aren't even RPGs.

Yeah, that's why it's RPGFan's Top 20 DS Games, not Top 20 DS RPGs.  We pulled from everything we cover.

You guys doing the other system as well?

No sarcasm at all - which one do you mean?
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Starmongoose on November 24, 2013, 12:37:16 PM
Mobile? I dunno.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on November 24, 2013, 12:41:51 PM
Mobile? I dunno.

I think I forgot that the PS360 was done. 

(http://i.imgur.com/SLSmqC7.gif?1)
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Tooker on November 24, 2013, 12:49:34 PM
I think that when we discussed making these lists, we decided that after the PS3 and 360 releases basically stop coming, we'll do the same for home consoles (although I'm guessing we'll probably just do one list rather than two because of cross-platform releases).  Today's announcement of a PS3 game (that we'd all hope will rank high on the list) probably coming to the US in 2015 significantly increases that window. :D
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on November 24, 2013, 12:52:00 PM
I think that when we discussed making these lists, we decided that after the PS3 and 360 releases basically stop coming, we'll do the same for home consoles (although I'm guessing we'll probably just do one list rather than two because of cross-platform releases).  Today's announcement of a PS3 game (that we'd all hope will rank high on the list) probably coming to the US in 2015 significantly increases that window. :D

touche, and I look forward to it!

I <3 RPGfan
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Tooker on November 24, 2013, 02:32:53 PM
And we <3 you. :)
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on November 24, 2013, 02:37:04 PM
And we <3 you. :)

(http://i.imgur.com/ngji0sX.gif)
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Klutz64 on November 24, 2013, 02:55:33 PM
You should do the Wii! You can call it "The First 20 Wii RPG's We Could Think Of"
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Starmongoose on November 24, 2013, 02:57:42 PM
Heh, that sounds close to what would happen if we had to think of a list. :P
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Tooker on November 24, 2013, 03:06:04 PM
Agreed.  Out of sheer curiosity, I pulled our Wii reviews, sorted by score in descending order, and removed duplicates.  Here are the top 21, since the last 3 have matching scores.  The list is better than one might think... but it still doesn't feel full of games we'd really want to celebrate.

Game (Score)
The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword (98%)
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (96%)
Shiren The Wanderer (91%)
Xenoblade Chronicles (91%)
Final Fantasy IV: The After Years (90%)
Sakura Wars ~So Long, My Love~ (90%)
Xenoblade Chronicles (90%)
Final Fantasy Fables: Chocobo's Dungeon (89%)
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers (88%)
Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn (88%)
Rune Factory Frontier (88%)
Super Paper Mario (88%)
Spectrobes: Origins (87%)
Muramasa: The Demon Blade (86%)
Harvest Moon: Animal Parade (85%)
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a King (84%)
Pandora's Tower (83%)
Arc Rise Fantasia (82%)
The Last Story (82%)
Little King's Story (82%)
Strong Bad's Cool Game for Attractive People (82%)
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Kevadu on November 24, 2013, 03:08:35 PM
You've got Xenoblade Chronicles listed twice.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Starmongoose on November 24, 2013, 03:10:20 PM
Yeah, I reviewed it when it came out in Europe and then Rob reviewed it when it came out in the states.

Still, minus that one it's a perfect 20. :P
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Klutz64 on November 24, 2013, 03:10:38 PM
You've got Xenoblade Chronicles listed twice.

Seems fitting. Xenoblade doesn't quite stand out among Wii RPG's so much as it lords over them.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Tooker on November 24, 2013, 03:26:28 PM
You've got Xenoblade Chronicles listed twice.

Weird - wonder how that worked.  Maybe a space at the end of one name when I removed the duplicates or something.

As our good buddy Goose points out, though, taking out the second makes it just 20, so I'm happy. :)
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: smmac41 on November 24, 2013, 03:48:23 PM
Add 2 more to that Wii RPG list

Opoona
and
Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World (Which is a great game)
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Tooker on November 24, 2013, 04:12:04 PM
I'm sorry, but I must disagree most wholeheartedly.  Opoona is terrible. (http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/opoona/index.html)

Dawn of the New World is apparently even worse. (http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/Tales_of_Symphonia_Dawn_of_the_New_World/index.html)  In fact, it received the lowest score we gave any Wii game.  (Opoona got only the #5 worst score.)
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on November 24, 2013, 04:25:48 PM
Yeah I think it's important to consider titles one personally loves amongst ones that are much more unanimously praised.  It's hard to please everyone.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Raze on November 24, 2013, 04:31:57 PM
 Radiant Historia, dragon quest 5, rune factory 3 and etrian odyssey 3 are the ds rpgs that stick out most to me. I'm kind of sad not to see RF3 on the list at all, especially with dark dawn on there. But, y'know, I get that nobody actually PLAYED RF3.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: MeshGearFox on November 24, 2013, 10:38:36 PM
I like Opoona but I think we're all in agreement that I'm an idiot, not a gamer, and probably just a Serbian botnet.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Aeolus on November 25, 2013, 12:42:38 AM
I'm sorry, but I must disagree most wholeheartedly.  Opoona is terrible. (http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/opoona/index.html)

Dawn of the New World is apparently even worse. (http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/Tales_of_Symphonia_Dawn_of_the_New_World/index.html)  In fact, it received the lowest score we gave any Wii game.  (Opoona got only the #5 worst score.)

And yet people are waiting for the Symphonia HD Chronicles for some reason (maybe if they updated DotNW to not suck, then it might be worth it (ToS1 is a good game for its time but I'm pretty sure the Tales of series is incredibly incremental in its advancements and overly reliant on archetypes, and I'm fairly certain there's been at least one worth successor to come along since then).

Also, I thought we already did a Top 20 Wii RPGs feature earlier this year?
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Tooker on November 25, 2013, 12:48:21 AM
I'm not sure.  We don't have one in the page that lists all of our past special features.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Aeolus on November 25, 2013, 12:55:05 AM
I'm not sure.  We don't have one in the page that lists all of our past special features.

I was just there myself, and I could swear we had an argument about the Wii and other console RPGs earlier this year (or maybe it was last year?).
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Tooker on November 25, 2013, 01:34:04 AM
Maybe you're remembering the suggestion thread that started this all?  It was on the public forums...
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on November 25, 2013, 01:41:49 AM
I like Opoona but I think we're all in agreement that I'm an idiot, not a gamer, and probably just a Serbian botnet.

I liked the music. :D

I'm sorry, but I must disagree most wholeheartedly.  Opoona is terrible. (http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/opoona/index.html)

Dawn of the New World is apparently even worse. (http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/Tales_of_Symphonia_Dawn_of_the_New_World/index.html)  In fact, it received the lowest score we gave any Wii game.  (Opoona got only the #5 worst score.)

And yet people are waiting for the Symphonia HD Chronicles for some reason (maybe if they updated DotNW to not suck, then it might be worth it (ToS1 is a good game for its time but I'm pretty sure the Tales of series is incredibly incremental in its advancements and overly reliant on archetypes, and I'm fairly certain there's been at least one worth successor to come along since then).

Also, I thought we already did a Top 20 Wii RPGs feature earlier this year?

Nostalgia. 

The characters were really something too.  But yeah, it's aged liked fine-ass, but it's still good for simple fun even if the newer titles outdo it a million-fold.

ToS2 was the definition of tawdry.  It brought all your favorite characters back in a half-ass sequel with irritating heroes and level caps on the old cast.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Elegance on November 25, 2013, 07:36:43 PM
Opoona does indeed have a great soundtrack.

It's good to see some great picks in the DS list (like Radiant Historia, Ghost Trick, and 999).  The lack of Infinite Space is astounding though.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dincrest on November 25, 2013, 07:40:25 PM
To be honest, I couldn't stand Infinite Space.  It was too ponderous for its own good, plot direction was too vague, and the music was forgettable.  I can see what it was aiming for, but I didn't enjoy it at all.  It's kinda like how I feel about 2001: A Space Odyssey.  I see it for its cinematic values, but holy mother of boring I couldn't sit through that film.  
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Andrew on November 25, 2013, 07:50:59 PM
I agree completely, Neal.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: MeshGearFox on November 25, 2013, 07:51:45 PM
Symphonia is seriously the only Tales game I liked. I thought the load times made Abyss unplayable and then I couldn't stand that game for a bunch of other reasons besides that anyway -- way too many cutscenes, easy to lock yourself out of things, a looooot of railroading. Also I think Abyss is when they really got into glorping on a bunch of useless gameplay systems.

Also could they seriously either make cooking useful or just remove it? I mean for the entire series?

wrt Infinite Space, a lot of open-ended space based games are super-grindy because Elite was really grindy and they can't get away from that for some reason. I never PLAYED IS, but that sounds like it's the case here -- more Elite-based than like, Star Control 2 based?
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Tooker on November 25, 2013, 07:58:20 PM
I am also not a fan of 2001.  Dr. Strangelove is the only Kubrick movie I've ever liked, and I don't think it's a coincidence that it's the movie he made before he got famous enough to override the studio on big stuff.  They forced him to keep the movie shorter.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Eusis on November 25, 2013, 08:00:02 PM
I've enjoyed every Kubrick film I saw BUT 2001. Though Full Metal Jacket was kind of lacking.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on November 25, 2013, 08:04:50 PM
Hey RPGFan, how about best RPG story feature??  For us who go in for a good show? :P
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Elegance on November 25, 2013, 08:09:33 PM
Never had to grind in Infinite Space.  It's actually pretty easy and the strategy is not as deep as it appears to be, but I found its greatest strength to be the grand story and character development.  I still haven't played a game that has what feels like a 20 hour introduction.  I know most people just divide the game into two parts, but the first part seems to be there only to set up plot points and character introductions so that the second part can go all out in terms of plot and character development, twists, and strategic warfare.   It really pulls no punches I didn't expect the payoff to be so satisfying.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: MeshGearFox on November 25, 2013, 08:11:33 PM
The book for 2001 is a looot better than he movie.

--- edit ---

To elaborate on this, it's not just typical HRRDRR BOOK BETTER THEY CHANGED STUFF IN MOVIE IT BAD, since the book and the movie were written at the same time, it's just that the book expanded on a lot of things. It's less cryptic, there's a little more depth to the characters... It's not drastically different but it has a lot of details the movie lacked, and it doesn't make the concessions for artsiness that the movie did.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Mickeymac92 on November 25, 2013, 08:33:14 PM
I was gonna try to quote a bunch of stuff, but I'll just leave it at this: The various statements made in this thread, from 'TWEWY is not that great' to 'Tales of Symphonia is not the best Tales game' to '2001: A Space Odyssey is boring', and the fact that the people making such statements have been treated courteously and even lead to interesting discussion, reminds me why I come to this forum (and reminds me I should probably come around here more often instead of going to forums where I get flamed for making similar statements).

As for Infinite Space, I wanted to like that game, but it look forever to get going, battles were rediculously slow, and if I recall correctly, I hated the general lack of exploration, but still having to deal with random battles during missions. Probably one of my biggest disappointments as far as RPGs go...
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Elegance on November 25, 2013, 08:37:26 PM
As for Infinite Space, I wanted to like that game, but it look forever to get going, battles were rediculously slow, and if I recall correctly, I hated the general lack of exploration, but still having to deal with random battles during missions. Probably one of my biggest disappointments as far as RPGs go...
I'll admit you have to be very patient with it, but it rewards that patience that most games just leave hanging.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Tooker on November 25, 2013, 08:49:20 PM
Hey RPGFan, how about best RPG story feature??  For us who go in for a good show? :P

We should - we did already write about the top 5 underwhelming storylines (http://www.rpgfan.com/features/Top_5_Underwhelming_Storylines/index.html)...
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Eusis on November 25, 2013, 08:59:16 PM
It's not drastically different but it has a lot of details the movie lacked, and it doesn't make the concessions for artsiness that the movie did.

Code for "you don't stare at a guy drifting in spaces for minutes on end" ergo book is better by default.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: MeshGearFox on November 25, 2013, 09:29:51 PM
It's not drastically different but it has a lot of details the movie lacked, and it doesn't make the concessions for artsiness that the movie did.

Code for "you don't stare at a guy drifting in spaces for minutes on end" ergo book is better by default.

Oh that's definitely part of it. In the book he's basically going past huge fleets of abandoned ships belonging to long dead civilizations. It's super cool and it's obvious they did what they did in the movie because special effects at the time weren't up to snuff for /that/. But it pervades the rest of the novel as well. Like the intro with the monkeys is another big one.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Tooker on November 25, 2013, 10:30:14 PM
I will agree that the book of 2001 is better. :)
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Aeolus on November 26, 2013, 12:15:31 AM
It's not drastically different but it has a lot of details the movie lacked, and it doesn't make the concessions for artsiness that the movie did.

Code for "you don't stare at a guy drifting in spaces for minutes on end" ergo book is better by default.

Oh that's definitely part of it. In the book he's basically going past huge fleets of abandoned ships belonging to long dead civilizations. It's super cool and it's obvious they did what they did in the movie because special effects at the time weren't up to snuff for /that/. But it pervades the rest of the novel as well. Like the intro with the monkeys is another big one.

Yeah, the whole flying into Jupiter scene was very much a case of the technology at the time being woefully inadequate for what they were trying to depict. That said, White Room scene was clearly poor pacing though. And with that said, and in its defense, scenes like watching the co-pilot drift off into the endless space wouldn't have worked nearly as well if less time was shown of the guy just drifting out of view. That shit's downright scary in the same way as getting buried alive or falling down into something and being unable to get back up in terms of ways to die.


Getting back on topic a bit, this list is invalid because nobody considered The Great Cave Offensive from Kirby's SuperStar Ultra and that very much had battles inspired by RPGs.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Monsoon on November 26, 2013, 01:05:52 AM
I would stay away from a list of "best stories in an RPG" because that is SO subjective.  Nobody could agree on anything.  It would only invite controversy.  The thread for that article would break 100 pages in 90 days. 

...You should start on the article tomorrow. 
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: MeshGearFox on November 26, 2013, 01:15:36 AM
DROWNING IN THAT DEEP
   ~≈≈≈≈~~~~~≈≈≈≈~
   ~~≈~~≈|o|≈~~≈≈≈≈
   ~~~≈≈≈≈~~~~~≈≈≈
  XENOGEARS OCEAN
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Eusis on November 26, 2013, 01:29:52 AM
Getting back on topic a bit, this list is invalid because nobody considered The Great Cave Offensive from Kirby's SuperStar Ultra and that very much had battles inspired by RPGs.

I saw someone wonder why the hell Canvas Curse wasn't on the list at all actually.

Before noticing the name of the site that produced the list.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Ranadiel on November 26, 2013, 07:27:14 AM
I would stay away from a list of "best stories in an RPG" because that is SO subjective.  Nobody could agree on anything.  It would only invite controversy.  The thread for that article would break 100 pages in 90 days. 

...You should start on the article tomorrow. 
Look all that has to be done is put Xenogears at number 1 and no one will care about the rest. Everyone can agree to that so there would be peace and harmony. *hides*
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Holykael1 on November 26, 2013, 01:44:37 PM
Ahem tbh, I think the xenosaga Trilogy has a better story than Xenogears. I think the Zero Escape series has the best plot of anything that ever existed so there is that.. That's just me though.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Darilon on November 26, 2013, 02:07:57 PM
Ahem tbh, I think the xenosaga Trilogy has a better story than Xenogears. I think the Zero Escape series has the best plot of anything that ever existed so there is that.. That's just me though.

I love the Zero Escape series to bits but don't think I could ever say it had the best story but as mentioned before, it is all subjective. People like different things and what may click for one person, might not interest another that much. That said, I do like the story in 999 and VLR. It is just, they seem pretty convoluted when I look back on them. Similar to how I loved the show Lost but looking back and thinking on episodes, it seems kind of ridiculous.

I like the stories from Nier, Planescape Torment and The Witcher. Then there are pieces of the story from certain games I really enjoy. I love stories where people face their inner demons like in Persona 4 and Z.H.P. Unlosing Ranger.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on November 26, 2013, 02:13:24 PM
The thing that bothers me about NieR is that the story is amazing, but I got upset with how much plot was sort of lost and not elaborated on in the game (but in the Grimoire NieR book....Japan only, or on a Google Doc).
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Holykael1 on November 26, 2013, 02:51:10 PM
Ahem tbh, I think the xenosaga Trilogy has a better story than Xenogears. I think the Zero Escape series has the best plot of anything that ever existed so there is that.. That's just me though.

I love the Zero Escape series to bits but don't think I could ever say it had the best story but as mentioned before, it is all subjective. People like different things and what may click for one person, might not interest another that much. That said, I do like the story in 999 and VLR. It is just, they seem pretty convoluted when I look back on them. Similar to how I loved the show Lost but looking back and thinking on episodes, it seems kind of ridiculous.

I like the stories from Nier, Planescape Torment and The Witcher. Then there are pieces of the story from certain games I really enjoy. I love stories where people face their inner demons like in Persona 4 and Z.H.P. Unlosing Ranger.

I like convoluted. I know a lot of people think of that as a negative but I for one don't. If it makes sense within the context of the story and within the rules setup by that universe, Im perfectly ok with it, it also makes my brain go crazy and I like that aswell.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Starmongoose on November 26, 2013, 03:25:45 PM
Lost is nothing like Zero Escape, shut yo mouth.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: TiamatNM on November 26, 2013, 05:53:35 PM

As for Infinite Space, I wanted to like that game, but it look forever to get going, battles were rediculously slow, and if I recall correctly, I hated the general lack of exploration, but still having to deal with random battles during missions. Probably one of my biggest disappointments as far as RPGs go...

Battles are only slow if you're watching every animation.  If you're tapping the bottom screen to skip animations the combat is very fast.  The game does not have the normal walking around type exploration but you certainly travel a lot.  The story made it feel very explorationy to me ;)
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Mickeymac92 on November 26, 2013, 06:40:50 PM
Maybe I don't remember right, but I just remember going in lots of straight lines and fighting stuff....which would've saved me hours had I known about the scene-skipping feature...
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: insertnamehere on November 27, 2013, 12:49:41 AM
Away deserves an honorable mention for being clever (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM9tzhoCHR8)
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: AuraChannelerChris on November 27, 2013, 02:08:29 PM
About that Chrono Trigger mention...

While the Nintendo DS version lacks the anime cutscenes of the PSone,

Excuse me, but the DS DOES have the anime cutscenes.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Starmongoose on November 27, 2013, 04:38:54 PM
Yeah, someone already mentioned. Don't get so hung up in a small detail, as if it matters.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: MeshGearFox on November 27, 2013, 07:28:50 PM
btw, to clarify about my previous comments about not considering visual novels to be games, that's not a statement of my thoughts on whether they're good or not I just think they need to be judged by a radically different set of criteria than you'd judge a game by, because they really live or die by their narrative to a degree that other games don't even come close to.

And to clarify about TWEWY's combat, I liked the stuff with Neku but I thought the top screen game and puck passing were completely pointless and unmanageable.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Mickeymac92 on November 27, 2013, 10:59:33 PM
I actually thought The basic Neku stuff was fairly shallow and boring as hell. It's my biggest complaint with that game. Like, if the Neku stuff was fun on its own, I'd maybe push through to the latter half of the narrative where the story apparently gets a million times better or something, but since that's not the case it's just one of the many reasons why I can't stand it.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Sagacious-T on November 29, 2013, 04:52:29 AM
I would stay away from a list of "best stories in an RPG" because that is SO subjective.  Nobody could agree on anything.  It would only invite controversy.  The thread for that article would break 100 pages in 90 days. 

...You should start on the article tomorrow. 

That, and most RPG storylines are pretty shitty.

I mean, from an overall media standpoint. Within video game context they're okay.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Yggdrasil on November 29, 2013, 03:47:55 PM
The thing that bothers me about NieR is that the story is amazing, but I got upset with how much plot was sort of lost and not elaborated on in the game (but in the Grimoire NieR book....Japan only, or on a Google Doc).

Supplemental material is nothing new for Japanese titles. It sucks that most of the time this sort of stuff has to be fan-translated to be enjoyed in the West.

I would stay away from a list of "best stories in an RPG" because that is SO subjective.  Nobody could agree on anything.  It would only invite controversy.  The thread for that article would break 100 pages in 90 days.  

...You should start on the article tomorrow.

That, and most RPG storylines are pretty shitty.

I mean, from an overall media standpoint. Within video game context they're okay.

Nah. The whole deal is really more about how narrative is there mainly (but not strictly) to create context, you can't please everybody in the process and that's always gonna be a thing.

...though, sometimes it gets really bad with how shitty people reacts when their expectations are not meet and take the position that they were "betrayed".
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: CluelessWonder on November 29, 2013, 11:51:35 PM
I just wanted to say that thanks to this thread/feature, I learned there was a sequel to Hotel Dusk never released in NA.  I also learned that I can buy an imported game and play it on my DS since it isn't region locked.  Thanks.  :)

Oh I agree with others that said Rune Factory 3 should be on the list.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Aeolus on November 30, 2013, 02:49:04 AM
The thing that bothers me about NieR is that the story is amazing, but I got upset with how much plot was sort of lost and not elaborated on in the game (but in the Grimoire NieR book....Japan only, or on a Google Doc).

Supplemental material is nothing new for Japanese titles. It sucks that most of the time this sort of stuff has to be fan-translated to be enjoyed in the West.

I would stay away from a list of "best stories in an RPG" because that is SO subjective.  Nobody could agree on anything.  It would only invite controversy.  The thread for that article would break 100 pages in 90 days.  

...You should start on the article tomorrow.

That, and most RPG storylines are pretty shitty.

I mean, from an overall media standpoint. Within video game context they're okay.

Nah. The whole deal is really more about how narrative is there mainly (but not strictly) to create context, you can't please everybody in the process and that's always gonna be a thing.

...though, sometimes it gets really bad with how shitty people reacts when their expectations are not meet and take the position that they were "betrayed".

Nope, he's right. Video game story lines are fairly low end on the narrative medium scale.

Hell, just as a case and point, take a look at how magic is treated within RPGs. Most of the time, magic becomes a simple matter of hitting enemies with a bigger stick or the correct one if elements are involved, and the rest is pretty much Healing. Rarely is magic ever treated like anything other than an ever improving collection of Nukes or a more renewable source of Healing, and in those rare cases its usually for fast or other forms of travel or gimmicky purposes. But even rarer is when the matter of having such a mass distribution of destruction or healing is ever reproached. Then there's the matter of the long term effects of being affected by magic, the effects of bungling spells, the use of magic in occupations and how magic affects the need or structure of occupations, the Geo-political effect of a remote village possessing a powerful magical relic, and so on.

And that's just one narrative element. I could write an entire dissertation on the awful and/or lazy writing included in not just RPGs but all video games. Even the best examples currently available aren't really that good when you think about it.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Darilon on November 30, 2013, 08:33:28 AM
Nope, he's right. Video game story lines are fairly low end on the narrative medium scale.

Hell, just as a case and point, take a look at how magic is treated within RPGs. Most of the time, magic becomes a simple matter of hitting enemies with a bigger stick or the correct one if elements are involved, and the rest is pretty much Healing. Rarely is magic ever treated like anything other than an ever improving collection of Nukes or a more renewable source of Healing, and in those rare cases its usually for fast or other forms of travel or gimmicky purposes. But even rarer is when the matter of having such a mass distribution of destruction or healing is ever reproached. Then there's the matter of the long term effects of being affected by magic, the effects of bungling spells, the use of magic in occupations and how magic affects the need or structure of occupations, the Geo-political effect of a remote village possessing a powerful magical relic, and so on.

And that's just one narrative element. I could write an entire dissertation on the awful and/or lazy writing included in not just RPGs but all video games. Even the best examples currently available aren't really that good when you think about it.

While I agree that most rpgs have pretty weak storylines I think it is unfair to specifically pick on the magic system. You could go to a bookstore and pick up a random book in the fantasy section. Chances are high that the magic system in it is just as weak as any rpg. There are exceptions of course but then the same applies for rpgs.

Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Mickeymac92 on November 30, 2013, 11:14:32 AM
While I agree that most rpgs have pretty weak storylines I think it is unfair to specifically pick on the magic system. You could go to a bookstore and pick up a random book in the fantasy section. Chances are high that the magic system in it is just as weak as any rpg. There are exceptions of course but then the same applies for rpgs.

You mean like all the cheap dimestore ones? I don't read a lot of fantasy novels...or really a lot of any books that don't have lots of pictures, but when I do I usually go for ones that either delve more into its world, or ones that are more realistic so I don't have to deal with poorly written RPG-inspired crap like magic that's just there for the heroes to lay on the occasional big bang.

As far as video games go, I can only think of Lost Odyssey as a game that really delves into how magic affects their world. And even then, I don't know how far it went into it and I kinda recall its main story being a bit of a mess (though I gotta start my replay of it someday to find out for sure...). Still, I can't think of any game that really made as much of an attempt as that game. Several Final Fantasy games made minor attempts, but never really went anywhere with it most of the time (I think 8-Bit Theater goes into more detail about the magic and the ramifications than the games ever do (been a while since I last read it, though), and that's just a fan parody). Occasionally it pops up in a few other games I've played, but again, it never go anywhere.

In fact, it's reasons like this that I rarely play games for their story. Whenever I take a story in a game seriously, I always seem to want more from them than what I'm getting, whether it's about the world, about the characters, or about the story and the reasonings behind the story, amd it just feels lazy compared to other mediums I've encountered.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Holykael1 on November 30, 2013, 11:39:42 AM
I think the Xenosaga trilogy makes a pretty darn good job at explaining the "magic" and "supernatural elements".

One of the biggest plot points in FF XII was the magic of the world, it was directly involved in the main conflict and I think it's explored fairly well there, also in FF VI,VII,IX and to a lesser extent VIII. 

I think there are some great storylines in videogames and I believe the medium itself has potential to outdo any other when it comes to storytelling, it has the potential to tick every box(music, writing, visuals and immersion). There are a few outstanding storylines in videogames if you ask me even if the average video game doesnt have one.

At the highest possible caliber I think videogames already outdo movies and novels but that's just me, there are much fewer examples of excellent narratives, that's a given, but movies and books have been around for far longer.

If the best novels were "translated" into a visual novel and they were done right, I think they would be vastly superior to the book itself. The same could be applied to movies if done right, that would require finding a good balance between the interactive nature of video games and the pacing of the narrative in films. The interactivity adjacent to the medium allows for a bigger emotional involvement from the audience.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Darilon on November 30, 2013, 12:36:40 PM
At the highest possible caliber I think videogames already outdo movies and novels but that's just me, there are much fewer examples of excellent narratives, that's a given, but movies and books have been around for far longer.

If the best novels were "translated" into a visual novel and they were done right, I think they would be vastly superior to the book itself. The same could be applied to movies if done right, that would require finding a good balance between the interactive nature of video games and the pacing of the narrative in films. The interactivity adjacent to the medium allows for a bigger emotional involvement from the audience.

That is a pretty bold thing to say. Can't say I agree though. It may be that video games as we see then today are still a relatively new thing that may need more time to reach their full potential. I can't think of any game that reached the same heights for me as To kill a Mockingbird, Othello or Shawshank Redemption.

Although I really liked visual novels such as Ever 17, I still don't think they have surpassed all other media yet. Main problem I see with translating other media to visual novels is that you would probably have to put in multiple routes and I can't see that working for everything. Unless you were to go with the more linear types such as Phoenix Wright or Ghost Trick.

I do think games like Ico and Shadow of the Colossus are brilliant examples of how a game can be done well. Can't really see either being surpassed by a book or movie based on them.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Holykael1 on November 30, 2013, 12:50:14 PM
Shawshank Redemption is an incredible movie and one of my absolute favourites but I dont feel nearly as passionate about it as a I feel about certain game storylines like Zero Escape, Ace Attorney, Final Fantasy and some others. Of course it's ultimately subjective.
What I said about the visual novel thing, ye certainly it doesnt need to have multiple endings. It can have a linear narrative like ace attorney and ghost trick which are great examples of more awesome video game storylines.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Mickeymac92 on November 30, 2013, 12:52:25 PM
Shadow of the Collosus is a great example of how I'd like to see story approached more in games. It's hard for me to explain since my brain is running on fumes at the moment, but I felt it was less direct and the gameplay itself played a part in the story. The two seemed to work together from what I recall, creating an experience that's different from what you'd see in other media. I don't want a story that surpasses other media, I want video game stories to be their own thing, uncomparable to that of other media. We already have a few good examples of that, especially in experimental indie games, but I think we still have a ways to go before they really get up there.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Holykael1 on November 30, 2013, 01:03:06 PM
Haven't experienced the other movie/novels you mentioned. Going to add To kill a Mockingbird to my movie watchlist. I dont like classic Literature though.. Here in Portugal we have renowned authors such as Jose Saramago(not really classic literature but a little more modern), Fernando Pessoa and Luis de Camoes.. I find them to be incredibly overrated, their social critique is solid but the actual narrative content is generic dribble if you ask me, their writing might be considered masterful but I for one dont give a shit if the story itself doesnt grab me and the characters are nothing more than archetypes for the purpose of social commentary. I dont like shakespearean writing aswell but I cant speak for the content itself because im not very familiar with it but it seems to be in the same vein. They may be pioneers and ahead of their time but I dont see myself going back to them by the same logic I dont go back to Atari games. Greater and better things have been created since and what makes them so unique doesnt appeal to me. I also dont like the objective hivemind surrounding these authors, it's like a fucking religion - "these are the absolute best and if you think otherwise you are an uneducated baboon"

Edit_ Mickeymac you are absolutely right, I was just responding to people who were making comparisons, I know ive used this example multiple times  but I dont see a game like 999 being replicated in any other medium besides videogames, the interactivity is key and the multiple endings are an absolute must in this particular narrative.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Darilon on November 30, 2013, 01:19:11 PM
Haven't experienced the other movie/novels you mentioned. Going to add To kill a Mockingbird to my movie watchlist. I dont like classic Literature though.. Here in Portugal we have renowned authors such as Jose Saramago(not really classic literature but a little more modern), Fernando Pessoa and Luis de Camoes.. I find them to be incredibly overrated, their social critique is solid but the actual narrative content is generic dribble if you ask me, their writing might be considered masterful but I for one dont give a shit if the story itself doesnt grab me and the characters are nothing more than archetypes for the purpose of social commentary. I dont like shakespearean writing aswell but I cant speak for the content itself because im not very familiar with it but it seems to be in the same vein. They may be pioneers or whatever but I dont see myself going back to them by the same logic I dont go back to Atari games. Greater and better things have been created since and what makes them so unique doesnt appeal to me.

If you want to watch Othello done as a movie, I suggest watching the one where Ian McKellan stars as Iago. I preferred To Kill a Mockingbird in its book format but the movie based on it was also great.

I tend to have the opposite issues with classics that you do. I love Wuthering Heights and how it portrays Heathcliff. My main beef with it is the way it is worded. Suppose it is similar to how you see Shakespearean works. I really enjoyed Philadelphia here I come and it had the benefit of the language flowing well.

More modern examples would be Cormac McCarthy's The Road and No Country for old men. Both the books and the movies based on them are brilliant. I would suggest both reading The Road and watching the movie.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: insertnamehere on November 30, 2013, 10:05:13 PM
I do think games like Ico and Shadow of the Colossus are brilliant examples of how a game can be done well. Can't really see either being surpassed by a book or movie based on them.

Ico has a book (http://www.amazon.com/ICO-Castle-Mist-Miyuki-Miyabe/dp/1421540630) and SotC has a movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1414372/) coming at some point so were those intentional references to their adaptations?
And about multiple endings translating across mediums, Run Lola Run does it pretty well.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dincrest on November 30, 2013, 10:23:35 PM
When it comes to magic, does it always need to have some sort of logical "science-y" system behind it?  Isn't part of what makes magic cool is its arcane and mysterious nature?  That it can't be explained or scientifically reasoned?  

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE me some "technical" magic systems (e.g. allomancy in the Mistborn novels; probably one of the coolest magic systems in fantasy novels) but sometimes mysterious magic that defies logic and reason is what a world and/or a plot call for.  But then the danger lies of magic being overused as a cop-out crutch with plot points...
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Klutz64 on November 30, 2013, 10:39:24 PM
The concern isn't that it isn't explained in these stories how magic "works," more that magic is just sort of there and doesn't seem to have any effect on the world or it's culture. Any world that has some form of magic would most definitely be affected by it.

And yes, there are examples of stories that handle magic's effect on society fairly well. The simplest example would be Final Fantasy IX, where magic is a fairly unique ability and the political powers of the world are seeking out any source of magic they can find to utilize as weapons against their enemies.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Yggdrasil on December 01, 2013, 12:34:31 AM
Nope, he's right. Video game story lines are fairly low end on the narrative medium scale.

Even if the "Nah" sounds dismissive to the point he makes I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with him on that.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Raze on December 01, 2013, 12:31:17 PM
You shouldn't try to explain magic. If you do, this happens.

(http://i.imgur.com/pioLt.jpg)

I do wish magic had story relevance more often beyond being a weapon of mass destruction or a power source though. Magic can do a lot of stuff. It can do anything. It's magic.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dice on December 01, 2013, 12:41:27 PM
I found Xillia really pushed my buttons on that.  Everything was fueled, made, or destroyed by magic.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Monsoon on December 01, 2013, 09:19:10 PM
That was one thing I thought was strong about the Dragon Age games.  Magic is given context and is key to the story, as well as being something equally useful and dangerous / risky.  Dragon Age III is probably going to have the legal vs. illegal use of magic as a key plot point. 

The Tales series, on the other hand... hasn't been very thorough about its magic systems since... Phantasia.  Maybe ever? 
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Annubis on December 01, 2013, 10:34:28 PM
I guess we'll see more with Xillia 2 since it's based more on the non-magical side (or so the trailers seem to show)

Given that DA3 is called inquisition... sounds more like we're going to destroy anything magical or mystic.
Killing every mage and every templar would kinda solve the issue I guess.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dincrest on December 01, 2013, 10:39:22 PM
This article may be relevant to the magic discussion: http://nkjemisin.com/2012/06/but-but-but-why-does-magic-have-to-make-sense/

Can't say I agree 100%, but there is a good point and sometimes magic should remain a mystery. 
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Tooker on December 02, 2013, 12:51:59 AM
If anyone hasn't heard of/read Brandon Sanderson's specific writings on the topic of the logic of magic systems, they are extremely relevant to this discussion.  They've been summarized very well on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Sanderson#Sanderson.27s_Laws), which I quote below.  I like that he has applied this to sci-fi as well, because his comments echo very nicely something that Asimov said about writing a successful sci-fi murder mystery - something Asimov was pretty good at.

----------------------------------------------------------

Sanderson's First Law is that "An author's ability to solve conflict satisfactorily with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic." While originally created as a rule for magic systems in fantasy novels, Sanderson has specified that this law need not apply just to fantasy, but is also applicable to science fiction. This Law was originally defined in Sanderson's online essay "Sanderson's First Law". In the essay he qualifies the two extremes of design as being:

Magic/technology has well defined rules that the audience understands. As a result, one can use this to solve conflict more easily as the capabilities are cleanly defined. Sanderson classifies this as "Hard Magic". C.L. Wilson in her essay "Worldbuilding 101 - Making Magic" advocated this method of creation, stating, "...create your rules, then follow them."

Magic/technology has unclear or vague rules, or none at all. This allows for a greater sense of wonder to be attained for the reader, but the ability to solve problems without resorting to deus ex machina decreases. Sanderson classifies this as "Soft Magic". Lawrence Watt-Evans specifically advised "The trick is to be a benevolent and consistent deity, not one who pulls miracles out of a hat as needed"

Sanderson's Second Law is "Limitations > Powers", that a character's weaknesses are more interesting than his or her abilities. It was initially set down in Episode 14 of the podcast Writing Excuses. John Brown, likewise looked to Sanderson's work in his own essay involving magic systems, noting "What are the ramifications and conflicts of using it?" Patricia Wrede likewise noted several issues on this topic ranging from magic suppressing other technologies, to how a magic might affect farming. In explaining the second law, Sanderson references the magic system of Superman, claiming that Superman's powers are not what make him interesting, but his limits, specifically his vulnerability to kryptonite and the code of ethics he received from his parents.

Sanderson's Third Law is that a writer should "Expand what you already have before you add something new."

Sanderson's Last Law is that a good magic system should be interconnected with the world around it. Sanderson points out that magic does not take place in a vacuum. It is related to the ecology, religion, economics, warfare, and politics of the world it inhabits. The job of the author is to think farther than the reader about the ramifications of the magic system. If magic can turn mud into diamonds, that has an effect on the value of diamonds. Sanderson states that readers of genre fiction are interested not just in the magic system but how the world and characters will be different because of the magic.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Aeolus on December 02, 2013, 01:55:34 AM
If anyone hasn't heard of/read Brandon Sanderson's specific writings on the topic of the logic of magic systems, they are extremely relevant to this discussion.  They've been summarized very well on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Sanderson#Sanderson.27s_Laws), which I quote below.  I like that he has applied this to sci-fi as well, because his comments echo very nicely something that Asimov said about writing a successful sci-fi murder mystery - something Asimov was pretty good at.

----------------------------------------------------------

Sanderson's First Law is that "An author's ability to solve conflict satisfactorily with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic." While originally created as a rule for magic systems in fantasy novels, Sanderson has specified that this law need not apply just to fantasy, but is also applicable to science fiction. This Law was originally defined in Sanderson's online essay "Sanderson's First Law". In the essay he qualifies the two extremes of design as being:

Magic/technology has well defined rules that the audience understands. As a result, one can use this to solve conflict more easily as the capabilities are cleanly defined. Sanderson classifies this as "Hard Magic". C.L. Wilson in her essay "Worldbuilding 101 - Making Magic" advocated this method of creation, stating, "...create your rules, then follow them."

Magic/technology has unclear or vague rules, or none at all. This allows for a greater sense of wonder to be attained for the reader, but the ability to solve problems without resorting to deus ex machina decreases. Sanderson classifies this as "Soft Magic". Lawrence Watt-Evans specifically advised "The trick is to be a benevolent and consistent deity, not one who pulls miracles out of a hat as needed"

Sanderson's Second Law is "Limitations > Powers", that a character's weaknesses are more interesting than his or her abilities. It was initially set down in Episode 14 of the podcast Writing Excuses. John Brown, likewise looked to Sanderson's work in his own essay involving magic systems, noting "What are the ramifications and conflicts of using it?" Patricia Wrede likewise noted several issues on this topic ranging from magic suppressing other technologies, to how a magic might affect farming. In explaining the second law, Sanderson references the magic system of Superman, claiming that Superman's powers are not what make him interesting, but his limits, specifically his vulnerability to kryptonite and the code of ethics he received from his parents.

Sanderson's Third Law is that a writer should "Expand what you already have before you add something new."

Sanderson's Last Law is that a good magic system should be interconnected with the world around it. Sanderson points out that magic does not take place in a vacuum. It is related to the ecology, religion, economics, warfare, and politics of the world it inhabits. The job of the author is to think farther than the reader about the ramifications of the magic system. If magic can turn mud into diamonds, that has an effect on the value of diamonds. Sanderson states that readers of genre fiction are interested not just in the magic system but how the world and characters will be different because of the magic.

^This! This was the exact thing I was trying to get at.

Well that, and the fact that crappy magic/technology implementation is but one of many flaws behind video game logic.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Holykael1 on December 02, 2013, 07:38:52 AM
I think Final Fantasy VII for instance does a remarkably good job at following those laws.
Although those laws, if followed, certainly extremely beneficial to the depth and richness of the narrative, I dont find them to be a dealbreaker if not there either.
Title: Re: RPGFan's 20 Top 20 DS Games
Post by: Dincrest on December 10, 2013, 09:00:21 PM
A wonderfully thought-out treatise by Sanderson.  I wouldn't expect anything less from the author of my favorite magic system (allomancy in Misborn.) 

But then, the discussion also merits this lovely little semi-NSFW meme:
http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/588691-dragons-crown