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Media => Single-Player RPGs => Topic started by: Aeolus on July 02, 2017, 11:32:21 PM

Title: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Aeolus on July 02, 2017, 11:32:21 PM
So it came up in the Game Journal that a new Tales of Megathread might be nice, especially considering that we have a barely used Symphonia thread on the front page along with a Beseria thread for the latest game, and neither is a good place to talk about Vesperia, the latest popularity poll results (http://www.siliconera.com/2017/06/04/tales-festival-2017-character-popularity-poll-results/), or the latest Tales of Crossover game (http://gematsu.com/2017/07/tales-rays-coming-west-summer).

So discuss your tales of Tales of Whatever, and hell, bring the crossover kids along. God knows we still need to keep talking about Project X Zones 1 & 2, amirite? (Don't answer this.)
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on July 03, 2017, 07:19:11 AM
Top 10 character wut?

Mikleo #1 ?
Blank silent protagonist #2 ?
Asbel above Velvet ?

I guess I don't see eye to eye with Japan on these ones (other than Yuri and Leon needing to be taken out of voting for winning too much).
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Aeolus on July 03, 2017, 07:39:51 AM
Top 10 character wut?

Mikleo #1 ?
Blank silent protagonist #2 ?
Asbel above Velvet ?

I guess I don't see eye to eye with Japan on these ones (other than Yuri and Leon needing to be taken out of voting for winning too much).

Sorey's waifu taking the #1 spot is both amazing and unprecedented as a Tales of Protagonist's Significant Other taking a spot above like 25th is extremely rare (at least, as far as I can recall).

Velvet ranking 7th is pretty lame though (even Sorey's beating her) and kinda speaks to the male dominated cast/female dominated fanbase. Especially given how the second highest rated female is Miss 'Not Appearing In This Game/Buy the DLC' 10 places later followed by Pascal and Milla. At least she did better than Judas (although I suspect that's more on the fact that the fanbase doesn't want to risk losing both Leons to the Hall of Fame).
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: ironmage on July 03, 2017, 10:38:05 AM
That ranking is indeed bizarre.  Were the voters predominantly fujoshi?  Mikleo wasn't even the best character in Zestiria; I'd say that was Edna.

If you asked me which Tales characters I quite liked, I'd say (in no particular order), Jade, Raine, Yuri, Luke, Velvet, Arche, Rita, Raven, Edna, Tear, Magilou.*  That's a pretty bad mismatch with the survey; I only picked two of the top ten, and at least a couple of mine aren't even in the top thirty.

Sorey and Asbel were rather generic, and wouldn't place in my top twenty.

*List may not be complete.  My memory ain't that good.  I think I'm missing a ninja or two.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Tomara on July 03, 2017, 11:23:59 AM
That ranking is indeed bizarre.  Were the voters predominantly fujoshi?  Mikleo wasn't even the best character in Zestiria; I'd say that was Edna.

I don't know if they're predominantly fujoshi, but the people voting are predominantly female. Technically the series has more male players, but female players tend to be much more engaged in the fandom and participate in (online) events much more often.

Edit: and if they were all fujoshi, we'd now be hearing a very heated discussion about Mikleo topping Sorey.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on July 03, 2017, 07:13:42 PM
Were the voters predominantly fujoshi?

Didn't want to bring it up as it could be seen in a negative light, but I did think this too.
That's the only way Ludger could ever top the chart.

Mikleo x Sorey
or
Sorey x Mikleo
?
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Dincrest on July 04, 2017, 06:15:27 AM
The people surveyed must have been young'uns, because the likes of Cless, Arche, Stahn, or Rutee weren't there.  I noticed Reid from Eternia was there to represent old school, but meh.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Aeolus on July 04, 2017, 07:03:58 AM
The people surveyed must have been young'uns, because the likes of Cless, Arche, Stahn, or Rutee weren't there.  I noticed Reid from Eternia was there to represent old school, but meh.

I don't think age has anything to do with it as they've been doing one of these for years now (hence why Yuri and Leon are in the Hall of Fame; in fact, Leon's right there).

Seriously, nobody really cares about Cress, Stahn or females (Cress is way too bland to matter that much, Stahn's brand of dumb bishie was succeeded by several generations of Tales of protags, Rutee is a magical healer type who stops mattering shortly after meeting Stahn (even her Swordian has the least relevance of them all), and Arche's biggest claim to fame is a western meme that has nothing to do with her or the game she comes from).
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on July 04, 2017, 07:04:01 AM
The best character in Eternia is clearly Meredy‎.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: MonCapitan2002 on July 21, 2017, 11:22:29 PM
I finally got around to playing Tales of Berseria.  I have to say that I enjoy the combat engine.  One thing I didn't know about the game before playing it is the fact that you get to play Velvet before she ends up in prison.  Her dramatic change in personality due to the circumstances that led her to end up in prison adds a strong sense of mood whiplash.  It makes me intensely dislike the person who caused her predicament.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: danholo on July 22, 2017, 12:20:27 PM
Berseria was a fun game but I don't think I'll get back to it.

I wonder when they'll announce a new Tales of game. Been pretty silent so far.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on July 22, 2017, 04:07:43 PM
Well, there's the cellphone game.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Dice on July 25, 2017, 12:16:58 PM
Berseria was a fun game but I don't think I'll get back to it.

I wonder when they'll announce a new Tales of game. Been pretty silent so far.

I was thinking about this just the other day.  Yeah they've been MIA lately, I'm guessing the next Tales title is gonna be vastly different and/or finally stepping away from the Xill/Zesty style and being developed exclusively for the PS4.

Can't wait for the day, this is that popular series that I'm still pretty excited for.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on July 25, 2017, 01:46:22 PM
It's probably because they are secretly working on Tales of Vesperia: Brave
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Klutz64 on July 25, 2017, 02:29:58 PM
It's probably because they are secretly working on Tales of Vesperia: Brave

For the Switch.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Kevadu on July 25, 2017, 02:44:10 PM
No, next game will be Tales of Gacha!

...actually that sounds frighteningly plausible.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Klutz64 on July 25, 2017, 04:42:28 PM
Not aware of Tales of Link?
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Kevadu on July 25, 2017, 05:12:28 PM
I wasn't, but I can't say that I'm terribly surprised.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Dice on July 26, 2017, 12:57:07 AM
We're so close to its 10th anniversary, and I've said for years something's gonna happen with Vespy to celebrate it... so I'm looking forward to cashing in...or eating crow.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Aeolus on July 26, 2017, 03:49:27 AM
We're so close to its 10th anniversary, and I've said for years something's gonna happen with Vespy to celebrate it... so I'm looking forward to cashing in...or eating crowe.

(http://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ToB_06-21-15.jpg)
God damn. That nose is just outlandishly small. Also, something something, phrasing, something, giggity, something, me totally not trying to empty quote the above, something....
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Alisha on July 27, 2017, 11:41:57 AM
We're so close to its 10th anniversary, and I've said for years something's gonna happen with Vespy to celebrate it... so I'm looking forward to cashing in...or eating crow.
that would be unfortunate for those that dont like vesperia
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Mickeymac92 on July 27, 2017, 01:32:47 PM
We're so close to its 10th anniversary, and I've said for years something's gonna happen with Vespy to celebrate it... so I'm looking forward to cashing in...or eating crow.
that would be unfortunate for those that dont like vesperia

...Why? Couldn't you just...ignore it, if that happened? Is Bamco gonna hack your Amazon account and order you a copy of the Anniversary Edition ToV, along with a dozen T-Shirts featuring the game's cast?
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Agent D. on July 27, 2017, 03:07:24 PM
We're so close to its 10th anniversary, and I've said for years something's gonna happen with Vespy to celebrate it... so I'm looking forward to cashing in...or eating crow.
that would be unfortunate for those that dont like vesperia

...Why? Couldn't you just...ignore it, if that happened? Is Bamco gonna hack your Amazon account and order you a copy of the Anniversary Edition ToV, along with a dozen T-Shirts featuring the game's cast?
DRAT, THEY'RE ON TO US, HIT THE GAS, BABA!
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Dice on July 27, 2017, 04:30:58 PM
We're so close to its 10th anniversary, and I've said for years something's gonna happen with Vespy to celebrate it... so I'm looking forward to cashing in...or eating crowe.

(http://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ToB_06-21-15.jpg)
God damn. That nose is just outlandishly small. Also, something something, phrasing, something, giggity, something, me totally not trying to empty quote the above, something....

Man she was kinda boring. Pass eating Velvet Crowe.  Even real crow, they're smart birds, wouldn't wanna eat them. 
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Artimicia on July 28, 2017, 03:15:50 AM
I've liked all the characters in Berseria so far basically, um, the players side, not, like, Artorious etc.

Depending on how the rest of Berseria goes, I may put this series past Star Ocean which would of been unthinkable back in the day..

That said I was only barely a fan of Symphonia.. .
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: MonCapitan2002 on July 28, 2017, 08:37:29 PM
Well, there's the cellphone game.
Fuck the cellphone game.  It's freemium and therefore garbage.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Agent D. on July 28, 2017, 09:06:54 PM
Well, there's the cellphone game.
Fuck the cellphone game.  It's freemium and therefore garbage.
Heeeyyy....not all freemium games are total garbage....entirely....maybe....ish?
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Dincrest on July 29, 2017, 06:29:05 AM
I never got to play Tales of Destiny II (nee Tales of Eternia) but I always heard that the English VA was "OMG worst voice acting ever!"  I watched 20 minutes of this LP and so far... I don't think the VA is all that bad.  I rather like Farah's VA. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vcfxtKStFjI
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: MonCapitan2002 on July 29, 2017, 07:49:15 AM
A part of me is wondering if we're watching the same video.  The acting seems very wooden to me.  While it isn't completely cringe inducing, it isn't exactly award winning.  What I will say is that Bandai Namco's translation and localization efforts have come a long way as the quality of Tales of Berseria's is far superior.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Dincrest on July 29, 2017, 08:24:26 AM
I think TDII's voice acting (at least what I heard) was pretty much the norm for a game of this type.  Even nowadays, I've heard voice acting in garden variety anime type games that fared about the same.  But given how everyone hyped up the voice acting in TDII as the worst thing ever, I was expecting Audio Atrocities levels of awful and got something that was... really not that bad.  The speech patterns sounded more natural than I expected, since the actors played it straight rather than go cartoony/exaggerated.  The point about natural sounding speech cadences is notable because things like awkward pauses were not uncommon in dubs of that era.  It's not Citizen Kane and some characters seem a little out-to-lunch, but it's what I'd expect from a tropey anime game.  Heck, I've played games where the Japanese voice acting was terrible: http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/aiyoriaoshi/index.html
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Alisha on July 29, 2017, 05:04:18 PM
We're so close to its 10th anniversary, and I've said for years something's gonna happen with Vespy to celebrate it... so I'm looking forward to cashing in...or eating crow.
that would be unfortunate for those that dont like vesperia

...Why? Couldn't you just...ignore it, if that happened? Is Bamco gonna hack your Amazon account and order you a copy of the Anniversary Edition ToV, along with a dozen T-Shirts featuring the game's cast?

while vespy may have a cult following it's not even among the best selling tales games
Quote
The series has generally sold well during its lifetime. The series' strongest sales base has been Japan: in 2007, sales distribution was 87% in Japan, 8% in North America, 3% in Europe and 2% in mainland Asia. The best-selling titles of the series at the time were Symphonia (953,000 copies for the GameCube, 486,000 for PlayStation 2), Destiny (1.1 million copies for PlayStation), Xillia (1 million copies for PlayStation 3) and Destiny 2 (977,000 copies for PlayStation 2). The sales data did not include mobile and online games.[151][152] The success of entries has also been linked with the consoles they are released on: Vesperia's release on the Xbox 360 caused the console to sell out for the first time in Japan, while Namco decided to release Zestiria on the PlayStation 3 due to the low sales prospects for next-gen consoles in their target audience.[3][153] As of December 2013, the series has shipped 16 million units worldwide across 100 different countries
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Agent D. on July 29, 2017, 05:10:01 PM
Just to be fair, Alisha, your quoted article even says that Vesperia caused the xbox 360 to sell out for the first time in japan. That alone should show what kind of dominating force it was at its time.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Ranadiel on July 29, 2017, 06:38:02 PM

while vespy may have a cult following it's not even among the best selling tales games
No one said it was? You are arguing against a point no one made.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Klutz64 on July 29, 2017, 07:05:15 PM
Why is everyone getting defensive about this anyway? All she did was say she didn't like Vesperia in her own way. This forum has a real issue with making mountains out of molehills.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Mickeymac92 on July 29, 2017, 08:02:29 PM
Why is everyone getting defensive about this anyway? All she did was say she didn't like Vesperia in her own way. This forum has a real issue with making mountains out of molehills.

Hey, I was being serious - what negative outcome could she possibly be percieving from anything Vesperia related, especially if it was, say, a sequel or port that would celebrate its 10th anniversary? She didn't just say "I don't like that game," she said it would be a problem for those who don't like Vesperia, and that's a mindset I couldn't wrap my head around. And believe me, when I see virgin soil, you can bet I'm going to bring out the drill.

...okay, this got weird...
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Aeolus on July 29, 2017, 09:15:46 PM
Why is everyone getting defensive about this anyway? All she did was say she didn't like Vesperia in her own way. This forum has a real issue with making mountains out of molehills.

Hey, I was being serious - what negative outcome could she possibly be percieving from anything Vesperia related, especially if it was, say, a sequel or port that would celebrate its 10th anniversary? She didn't just say "I don't like that game," she said it would be a problem for those who don't like Vesperia, and that's a mindset I couldn't wrap my head around. And believe me, when I see virgin soil, you can bet I'm going to bring out the drill.

...okay, this got weird...

(http://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ToB_06-21-15.jpg)

Velvet does not approve.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Ranadiel on July 29, 2017, 09:25:03 PM

Velvet does not approve.
Well to be fair, she doesn't really approve of anything. :p
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on July 29, 2017, 10:20:11 PM
As much as I found Berseria to be a step up when compared to the latest entries, I really can't see myself replaying it ever.
Feels like a lot of the story dragged on and the characters not named Velvet really aren't anything to write home about.

If anything, I think the link to Zesty hurt it more than it helped.
Eizen is the only good thing out of it.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Dincrest on July 30, 2017, 08:14:15 PM
I have not played a Tales game since Symphonia on Gamecube- which I rather liked except for the forgettable music. 

My favorite was definitely Destiny.  I played that one multiple times to completion. Of all the Tales games I've played, this one had the most exciting music.  Loved the soundtrack.

Phantasia was one of my favorite imports (I once had both a SFC cartridge and the PSX import) which I sold on eBay when money was tight.  All official English versions of Phantasia were lousy. 

Tales of the World: Radiant Mythology was fun, but it suffered from every pitfall that crossover games of that ilk fall into. 

Watching some of Eternia/Destiny II's longplay makes me want to actually play that game. 
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: MonCapitan2002 on August 18, 2017, 06:33:28 AM
I am still playing through Tales of Berseria when I came across the most frustrating minigame I have ever encountered.  Mug Match is a cancer and whoever it is at Bandai Namco that programmed it needs to die.  The game is utterly frustrating.  The speed with which the faces change expression is too fast to reliably match them right.  Fuck that minigame.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on August 18, 2017, 08:12:28 AM
I am still playing through Tales of Berseria when I came across the most frustrating minigame I have ever encountered.  Mug Match is a cancer and whoever it is at Bandai Namco that programmed it needs to die.  The game is utterly frustrating.  The speed with which the faces change expression is too fast to reliably match them right.  Fuck that minigame.

There's no special reward or trophy that needs Mug Match.
Skip it.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Mickeymac92 on August 18, 2017, 03:42:01 PM
Oh yeah, crap, I bought Tales of Berseria last week when it was on Sale at Gamestop. I haven't played Zesteria yet, however. How jarring would you say it would be to go from Berseria to Zesteria? Because I kind of want to prioritize Bersy, especially since Zesty has an anime adaption, but I still want to give the game a chance, I mean...I bought it, after all...I also still have Xillia 1 & 2 to finish, but those are kind of stuck on the Backburner until I finish every other Tales game except Legendia...
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on August 18, 2017, 04:45:58 PM
Oh yeah, crap, I bought Tales of Berseria last week when it was on Sale at Gamestop. I haven't played Zesteria yet, however. How jarring would you say it would be to go from Berseria to Zesteria? Because I kind of want to prioritize Bersy, especially since Zesty has an anime adaption, but I still want to give the game a chance, I mean...I bought it, after all...I also still have Xillia 1 & 2 to finish, but those are kind of stuck on the Backburner until I finish every other Tales game except Legendia...

I mean, you'll miss some of the lore but I could resume it to you pretty quickly. It's not that essential as the adventure of ToB is so far prior to ToZ that there is little that is shared by both games.

Seraphim = spirits - immortal - usually born from nothing but rarely born from human soul when dying
Malevolence = corruption; created by humans - cannot be cured other than by the flames of purification
Sheperd = human with the power to merge with seraphim and use the flames of purification (ToZ's main character)
Dragons = seraphim with too much malevolence
Hellion = animal/human with too much malevolence
The Lord of Calamity = the big evil from ToZ
Maotelus = one of the great spirits. There are 4 others (elementals)
[spoiler]
Maotelus (again) = became corrupted and was the source of The Lord of Calamity's power.
Eizen (ToB) is Edna (ToZ)'s brother and in ToZ he's a dragon[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Mickeymac92 on August 18, 2017, 07:24:42 PM
I meant Gameplay-wise. Like, going from Vesperia to ToA was hard because of how much they limit you at the beginning, which Vespy gives you at the start. Then Graces f and Xillia have vastly different combat systems...that sort of thing...I'm not sure if Berseria is just going spoil me or something...that's why I try to play games in order if I can...I never really pay close attention to the lore and story, outside of what the characters are doing/going through...
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on August 19, 2017, 02:26:19 AM
Combat system is completely different so there's little in the way of skills that gets carried over.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Isjaki on August 19, 2017, 03:20:09 AM
I preferred the combat in Berseria over Zestiria. A huge reason is that Zestiria has an absolute shit battle camera. I also just think Berseria is a more enjoyable video game.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Artimicia on August 19, 2017, 05:27:06 AM
Idk whatever I kinda like all the Tales games really somehow....

I think actually the sole exception would be Vesperia... just looked so off and uncharacteristically Tales.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Mickeymac92 on August 19, 2017, 07:58:28 PM
Combat system is completely different so there's little in the way of skills that gets carried over.

Alright. Thank you.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: MonCapitan2002 on August 27, 2017, 01:34:31 PM
Well, there's the cellphone game.
Fuck the cellphone game.  It's freemium and therefore garbage.
Heeeyyy....not all freemium games are total garbage....entirely....maybe....ish?
I'm of the opinion that if I'm not paying for it, then I'm the merchandise and not the customer.  Also, I fucking hate advertising.  With a fiery burning passion.  I also loathe micro-transactions and think that whoever invented the idea should be executed by torture, non-fatal crucifixion then dipped in acid feet first.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Mickeymac92 on August 27, 2017, 07:39:31 PM
Yeah, I'm not really okay with the whole idea. Sometimes they can be fun, but the long term strategy of any business is to make money. I'd feel that a game that expects you to pay up front is more trustworthy than one that expects you to pay eventually, because the latter is highly incentivised to resort to dirty tricks once they know they've got you...
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Arvis on August 28, 2017, 10:23:38 AM
I'm just happy I never once was tricked into spending real money on a F2P game.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Klutz64 on August 28, 2017, 11:09:50 AM
I've spent money on F2P before, but I've never felt "tricked." The only time I'll spend money on a F2P game is if the game is genuinely enjoyable and I want to give a little to the devs/publisher to say thanks for making a fun game. And then I only spend what I'd spend on a normal retail game/subscription (i.e. $60/$10 per month respectfully)
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Mickeymac92 on August 28, 2017, 06:16:24 PM
I only ever spent $5 in that stupid Pokemon puzzle game, which let me play it for 5 more minutes...
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: bigdeath on August 30, 2017, 11:22:07 PM
I'm playing Tales of Beseria for the first time right now. I have no idea why I didn't get this sooner. ITS AWESOME! The combat is a lot of fun and the OST sounds great.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on October 26, 2017, 07:49:49 PM
Did I miss something or has there been an unusually long radio silence about the next game?

Vesperia's 10th year is in 2018 btw... just saying ya know...
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Dice on October 26, 2017, 08:27:17 PM
Vesperia's 10th year is in 2018 btw... just saying ya know...

I'm betting a reasonable 90% likelihood they do something for it too.  I'd be super surprised if they don't port it to Steam at the very minimum.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Arvis on October 27, 2017, 12:08:26 PM
Vesperia's 10th year is in 2018 btw... just saying ya know...

I'm betting a reasonable 90% likelihood they do something for it too.  I'd be super surprised if they don't port it to Steam at the very minimum.

This would be ideal!

Although not too sure my laptop would run it.... :(
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: MonCapitan2002 on October 28, 2017, 03:05:59 AM
How powerful / old is your laptop?
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Arvis on October 30, 2017, 12:16:54 PM
Uh, it's like from 2007, 4gb RAM, not sure about the hertz it pulls.  It can kinda sorta run Trails in the Sky on max settings, although it does lose some framerate at times.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Rook on November 01, 2017, 05:49:16 PM
Did I miss something or has there been an unusually long radio silence about the next game?

Vesperia's 10th year is in 2018 btw... just saying ya know...

The switch is getting one in April 2018. Rumored to be Vesperia or Beseria.

Maybe the team is working on Code Vein.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on November 02, 2017, 08:15:31 PM
I did some research and there is very little know about the next main entry.
All that's been said is that it will release only on PS4 and PC.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: MonCapitan2002 on November 11, 2017, 05:59:50 AM
I am definitely looking forward to it.  Especially if they build on what they did right with Tales of Berseria.  The game was seriously awesome.  Still need to finish getting my shiny platinum trophy, though.  I just hope the next game brings back the navigable world map, but sadly, I think that might be a thing of the past. ;_;
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on November 11, 2017, 11:35:44 AM
I am definitely looking forward to it.  Especially if they build on what they did right with Tales of Berseria.  The game was seriously awesome.  Still need to finish getting my shiny platinum trophy, though.  I just hope the next game brings back the navigable world map, but sadly, I think that might be a thing of the past. ;_;

Be warned that the last boss on chaos is a complete chore.
Basically, you have to make a perma invincible Velvet and chip at him for a very long time.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: MonCapitan2002 on November 13, 2017, 02:15:28 PM
There's no difficulty related trophies to get in Tales of Berseria.  The ones I'm missing to get the Plat are Shattered Soul, A Solid B, the level 200 trophy, the item collection trophy and the Tales Coin trophy.  None of these are difficulty specific.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on March 07, 2018, 12:40:02 AM
Did I miss something or has there been an unusually long radio silence about the next game?

Vesperia's 10th year is in 2018 btw... just saying ya know...

Half a year later...
The lengthy radio silence just makes me keep believing it could be Vesperia.
Bamco, please make me happy or crush my hope once and for all already.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on June 07, 2018, 01:55:23 PM
A reputable source saying that basically:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfAiu2jX0AEu5Qd.jpg)
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Mickeymac92 on June 07, 2018, 02:13:25 PM
Yeah, was hoping to wait until the official announcement before getting excited, but it would be quite the treat if true. And Bamco doesn't find a way to screw it up.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Aeolus on June 07, 2018, 07:00:33 PM
Yeah, was hoping to wait until the official announcement before getting excited, but it would be quite the treat if true. And Bamco doesn't find a way to screw it up.

They don't even need to. Its so antiquated by now that going back to this after Graces F or Berseria will be quite the culture shock to some.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Electricb7 on June 08, 2018, 01:22:56 AM
I listened to the 'Tales of' episodes but I forgotten already.
What was the best and worst Tales games again?
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Mickeymac92 on June 08, 2018, 01:46:36 AM
I listened to the 'Tales of' episodes but I forgotten already.
What was the best and worst Tales games again?

It's still my favorite, at least.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Frostillicus on June 08, 2018, 09:49:39 AM
Yeah, was hoping to wait until the official announcement before getting excited, but it would be quite the treat if true. And Bamco doesn't find a way to screw it up.

They don't even need to. Its so antiquated by now that going back to this after Graces F or Berseria will be quite the culture shock to some.

Only in that they will be playing a much better game. I finally played Vesperia for the first time last year, almost right after playing Graces f and Xillia 1. The only thing that was difficult to adjust to was how clunky battle felt in comparison. Otherwise, Vesperia is a superior title to either, in my opinion. There's a ...'hollowness' to the newer Tales games. ...Like they are a re-manufactured formula. Vesperia feels much 'richer', and has a certain charm lacking in recent titles. You're given reason to care about what happens to the characters.
I'm glad to hear that people who never owned a 360 may finally get the chance to play what I believe is one of the best Tales games of all.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: MonCapitan2002 on June 08, 2018, 08:45:20 PM
If Tales of Vesperia is indeed being re-released for the Playstation 4, I will be one very, very happy MonCapitan2002.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Arvis on June 11, 2018, 10:28:44 AM
If Tales of Vesperia is indeed being re-released for the Playstation 4, I will be one very, very happy MonCapitan2002.

Congrats on becoming a very, very happy MonCapitan2002!
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Nel_Annette on June 12, 2018, 01:07:48 AM
Very happy about this news. Vesperia's in top three for Tales games, and has my favorite cast. Been ten years since I played it; will be nice to come back to it with the extra content.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: MonCapitan2002 on June 12, 2018, 02:53:56 PM
If Tales of Vesperia is indeed being re-released for the Playstation 4, I will be one very, very happy MonCapitan2002.

Congrats on becoming a very, very happy MonCapitan2002!
Not so fast.  We don't know if the PS 4 version will be released in the West.  I heard that Microsoft funded the localization of Tales of Vesperia.  If that is the case, we might only see the XBox One and PC version on our shores.  I am not yet happy.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Arvis on June 12, 2018, 02:56:36 PM
Would be awfully weird to announce the PS4 version at E3 (which is in the West) only to go "PSYCH!" later.  But I guess it's best not to get too excited if there's even a small possibility of everything being ruined.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Aeolus on June 12, 2018, 08:28:17 PM
According to Amazon, it will be coming out for all three systems in the west (and anything that's on the XBone will be on PC guaranteed; Halo, Forza or Gears aside).
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Kevadu on June 12, 2018, 09:20:32 PM
Not so fast.  We don't know if the PS 4 version will be released in the West.  I heard that Microsoft funded the localization of Tales of Vesperia.  If that is the case, we might only see the XBox One and PC version on our shores.  I am not yet happy.

This was an announcement for the west (E3 is a western trade show).  They explicitly said it was coming for the PS4.  You can literally preorder the PS4 version right now.

At some point you're being a little too paranoid...
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Ranadiel on June 13, 2018, 06:40:40 AM
If Tales of Vesperia is indeed being re-released for the Playstation 4, I will be one very, very happy MonCapitan2002.

Congrats on becoming a very, very happy MonCapitan2002!
Not so fast.  We don't know if the PS 4 version will be released in the West.  I heard that Microsoft funded the localization of Tales of Vesperia.  If that is the case, we might only see the XBox One and PC version on our shores.  I am not yet happy.
No we know there are PS4 and Switch versions. I have one on preorder already.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Arvis on June 13, 2018, 09:33:52 AM
Congrats on becoming a very, very happy (but still paranoid) MonCapitan 2002!
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Aeolus on June 17, 2018, 11:41:01 AM
https://gematsu.com/2018/06/brand-new-tales-of-series-rpg-in-development-for-console

Its that time once again to start waiting for the next Tales of Game.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: MonCapitan2002 on June 17, 2018, 12:26:44 PM
Congrats on becoming a very, very happy (but still paranoid) MonCapitan 2002!
I am still paranoid.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Arvis on June 18, 2018, 04:11:05 PM
I hope the main female in this one is just completely naked (save for just a cape).  That would be the next logical step forward from Velvet.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: MonCapitan2002 on June 18, 2018, 07:56:55 PM
If she's wearing a cape, then she won't be naked.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Dincrest on June 19, 2018, 08:15:53 AM
I hope the main female in this one is just completely naked (save for just a cape).  That would be the next logical step forward from Velvet.

Unless they decide to flip the script and go in the opposite direction, giving the leading lady proper armor and having her companions be the "cherry poptart chainmail bikini team" ya know?
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Arvis on June 19, 2018, 11:21:02 AM
Yes I could definitely see them going that route for a Tales game, Din, and when the heck did I make it into your sig?  I'm honored.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Frostillicus on June 19, 2018, 11:38:58 AM
I hope the main female in this one is just completely naked (save for just a cape).

Day 1 purchase for me.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Arvis on June 19, 2018, 01:41:18 PM
I hope the main female in this one is just completely naked (save for just a cape).

Day 1 purchase for me.

LOL Frosty!  You always put a grin on my face in spite of myself. :P
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: ironmage on June 20, 2018, 12:31:04 AM
I hope the main female in this one is just completely naked (save for just a cape).
Day 1 purchase for me.

...I thought we were already pretty close to that?  I guess neither of you unlocked Velvet's jacketless costume.  :P
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on June 20, 2018, 08:00:29 AM
What about people who played with "good girl Velvet" ?

(https://i.imgur.com/N9w43tw.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Arvis on June 20, 2018, 10:05:00 AM
You still get Underboob Velvet in every skit... :/
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Tomara on June 20, 2018, 11:04:35 AM
I wonder why wearing clothes is so difficult for so many female RPG protagonists...
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Dincrest on June 20, 2018, 02:59:56 PM
I wonder why wearing clothes is so difficult for so many female RPG protagonists...

And even when they wear clothes, they're ludicrously skin-tight or have "boob windows" or something ridiculous, right? 

Septerra Core seems to mostly buck that trend.  Maya wears full armor.  Okay, so Led (a girl who's maybe 18-20) wears a tank top and there is a brothel in the game with scantily clad prostitutes, but that's about it. 

As for a new Tales of... game, I don't expect too much from that series beyond a fun-to-play, pulpy, summer-blockbuster style romp.  I just hope that it bucks the trend I complain the most about in modern gaming- miniscule text fonts in dialogue boxes with no way to make them bigger.  If I'm allowed complete wishful thinking, I also want to see someone other than Motoi Sakuraba composing the music.  I think Sakuraba is an uninspired hack.  He farts out so much music that it all sounds boring, generic, repetitive, recycled, and completely unmemorable to me. 
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Aeolus on June 20, 2018, 07:10:29 PM
I wonder why wearing clothes is so difficult for so many female RPG protagonists...

Because, contrary to popular belief, the defensive rating of armor goes up as the area it covers goes down. The idea is to concentrate it all onto three spots (the bare minimum needed to retain the 'decency' status effect; incidentally losing said status effect is an automatic game over).


Septerra Core seems to mostly buck that trend.  Maya wears full armor.  Okay, so Led (a girl who's maybe 18-20) wears a tank top and there is a brothel in the game with scantily clad prostitutes, but that's about it. 

Lol at bringing up Septerra Core and further including the two party members who were most blatantly designed after noted anime characters Motoko Kusanagi and Sailor Moon.


What about people who played with "good girl Velvet" ?

(https://i.imgur.com/N9w43tw.jpg?1)

As I recall, most of Velvet's standard ensemble was assembled with her "good girl Velvet" outfit (or at least what was left of it).
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: MonCapitan2002 on June 22, 2018, 07:43:18 PM
I wonder why wearing clothes is so difficult for so many female RPG protagonists...

And even when they wear clothes, they're ludicrously skin-tight or have "boob windows" or something ridiculous, right? 

Septerra Core seems to mostly buck that trend.  Maya wears full armor.  Okay, so Led (a girl who's maybe 18-20) wears a tank top and there is a brothel in the game with scantily clad prostitutes, but that's about it. 

As for a new Tales of... game, I don't expect too much from that series beyond a fun-to-play, pulpy, summer-blockbuster style romp.  I just hope that it bucks the trend I complain the most about in modern gaming- miniscule text fonts in dialogue boxes with no way to make them bigger.  If I'm allowed complete wishful thinking, I also want to see someone other than Motoi Sakuraba composing the music.  I think Sakuraba is an uninspired hack.  He farts out so much music that it all sounds boring, generic, repetitive, recycled, and completely unmemorable to me.
While I do agree with you that his music is mostly forgettable, it is at least nice to listen to for the most part.  Having said that, though, I would definitely echo your desire to see someone new get a chance at composing a Tales game's score.  Yasunori Mitsuda or the woman behind the Wild Arms scores come to mind.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Grainofariver on June 23, 2018, 09:16:03 PM
The sad thing is, I might not have minded Velvet's outfit much if they'd approached the character with an 'I don't give a damn how I look' mentality. Instead she gets embarrassed when somebody draws attention to her attire... in literally the first town of the game. It's baffling that they would go out of their way to draw attention to this contradiction. Then again, I've never cared for Inomata's designs, so any further complaining would just feel like kicking a dead horse.

Sakuraba is an enigma. He composed Dark Souls, which presents one of my favourite final boss themes. He also composed Golden Sun/TLA: both boasting excellent soundtracks for the GBA. On the other hand, his work with titles like Tales and Star Ocean is all over the place. I rather enjoyed some of the Zestiria tracks (The Essence of Adventure Lies in Exploration is a pleasant little theme), but Tales of Graces has some of the most awful music I've heard from an officially published game (not only would I argue the standard boss theme is one of the worst battle themes ever, Sakuraba deserves some kind of lifetime achievement award for Lying in the Darkness). I'm not sure what to take away from his work: he has too many great tracks for me to write him off as a hack, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

I think people have been calling for a different composer for a long time: at least since 2012, when I started following the series. For better or worse, I can't ever see a Tales game without him. Legendia was done by a different team entirely, and aside from that he's been involved in every single game. Given the contradiction in quality between Tales and his other work, the question for me isn't so much 'how can we get rid of him' as much as 'does he even want to be there'.  Alas, I doubt we'll ever get a concrete answer. I'm more hopeful that we'll see a return of a co-composer. Funnily enough, I remember defending Sakuraba once (maybe on this very board), but have since found out that the majority of songs I liked weren't his.

My single biggest hope for the newest title is that they will finally work on the field/dungeon designs. They are spacious, empty, and lacking any kind of structure or design to make them feel like a real world. Four games in a row the exploration aspect has been a complete drag, which is a pretty big problem for an RPG. I can recall a lot of the locations in other games by their visual aesthetic and structure, but with Xillia/Xillia 2/Zestiria/Berseria everything that isn't a town just bleeds together into an open field of blah. If nothing else gets fixed or changed from Berseria except this one thing, I'll take it with gusto.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on June 24, 2018, 12:44:46 AM
At least Berseria added the hoverboard so you can travel those empty fields faster...
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Grainofariver on June 24, 2018, 06:44:34 AM
I don't dislike the hoverboard, although you get it far too late. I know the days of getting boats and airships which gradually open more of the map are long-gone, but I feel like, if implemented well, the hoverboard could fill that role. In theory it somewhat did by making travel quicker and opening new areas, but it felt a bit like an after-thought (not dissimilar to using the elemental abilities in Zestiria: that felt like such wasted potential).
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Aeolus on June 24, 2018, 10:39:55 AM
Playing through this game now, and not only are some locations stupidly huge *cough*that temple you face Artorious in*cough*, but generally speaking your land speed travel is slow enough that if an enemy gets a bead on you, unless you get outside of their aggro zone, you're likely getting into a battle since they're generally faster than you (and the other movement speed upgrade(s?) don't really do much of anything, especially when later enemies scale with it).
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: MonCapitan2002 on June 24, 2018, 11:25:14 AM
I don't dislike the hoverboard, although you get it far too late. I know the days of getting boats and airships which gradually open more of the map are long-gone, but I feel like, if implemented well, the hoverboard could fill that role. In theory it somewhat did by making travel quicker and opening new areas, but it felt a bit like an after-thought (not dissimilar to using the elemental abilities in Zestiria: that felt like such wasted potential).
Frankly, I think going pseudo open world is what hurt the dungeon and field designs of the Tales series.  I think the best thing the developers can do is to go back to a separate navigable world map with distinct dungeon and village zones. 
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Aeolus on June 24, 2018, 12:04:09 PM
I don't dislike the hoverboard, although you get it far too late. I know the days of getting boats and airships which gradually open more of the map are long-gone, but I feel like, if implemented well, the hoverboard could fill that role. In theory it somewhat did by making travel quicker and opening new areas, but it felt a bit like an after-thought (not dissimilar to using the elemental abilities in Zestiria: that felt like such wasted potential).
Frankly, I think going pseudo open world is what hurt the dungeon and field designs of the Tales series.  I think the best thing the developers can do is to go back to a separate navigable world map with distinct dungeon and village zones.

Its not the open world aspect as it is having battles take place on the field rather than their own distinct battlefield. It was atrocious for Zesty and not much better for Berseria (since at least they did a better job of designing field/dungeon maps to accommodate battle arenas; even if it led to all of the dungeons looking like an interconnected series of boxes; at least compared to Zesty's "what could possibly go wrong?").
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on June 24, 2018, 02:47:58 PM
BTW, is it really necessary for the final dungeon to be this epic 2h long labyrinth every time?
I wouldn't mind a more streamlined dungeon when I'm trying to push on and finish the game.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Kevadu on June 24, 2018, 03:37:45 PM
I'm currently playing through Berseria myself, actually.  And I have to say that while I am generally liking the game so far the endless fields (and caves...so many caves...) of enemies really does wear on me at times.  It's like they heard the complaints about the mediocre dungeons in Xillia (maybe Zesteria too but I haven't played that one) and said, "OK we'll make everything bigger".  Not more interesting, not more content, just bigger.  And filled with endless swarms of the same enemies which you feel like you shouldn't even try to avoid because it takes so many battles to get all those equipment skills.

Graces (I always seem to come back to Graces...) actually handled this kind of stuff really well in my opinion.  It didn't have a world map or anything but most of the 'overworld' links between cities and stuff were quite short.  Too short to be truly realistic, honestly, but who really cares.  On the other hand it has some huge, expansive, and actually interesting dungeons filled with puzzles, exploration, etc.  Didn't hurt that when you did fight enemies it was with the best battle system the series has produced to date.  Yeah, that was a really good game...

The plot in Berseria is definitely one of the most interesting I've seen in a Tales game but it feels like they still don't know how to get the gameplay right...even though they've gotten it right before but decided to abandon that direction for whatever reason.

BTW, is it really necessary for the final dungeon to be this epic 2h long labyrinth every time?
I wouldn't mind a more streamlined dungeon when I'm trying to push on and finish the game.

Now that is crazy talk.  Epic final dungeons is one JRPG tradition I actually like!  It's the final dungeon, it should be epic.  Just hopefully make it a more interesting location than the endless basically identical caves I've been going through so far...
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Grainofariver on June 24, 2018, 05:10:30 PM
BTW, is it really necessary for the final dungeon to be this epic 2h long labyrinth every time?
I wouldn't mind a more streamlined dungeon when I'm trying to push on and finish the game.

For me the problem lies less with the length and more with the design. Xillia and Xillia 2 both had very short final dungeons, to the point that it felt stupidly anti-climactic. Zestiria's final dungeon, it turns out, can be cleared in about 10-20 minutes with a holy bottle (which my co-op partner and I found out after being forced to do it THREE TIMES (I'd never had, nor have I since, had a PS4 game crash), but at least they got the look and sound right... Berseria's dungeon just doesn't have anything interesting or unique enough to justify the length. There's no puzzles, the environments feel over-sized, and there's only two variations to the visuals. By contrast Abyss and Vesperia had pretty lengthy final dungeons, but there was a lot of visual variety and a few puzzles to keep changing things up.

That is, ultimately a dungeon should be as long as its design and structure can remain interesting.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Grainofariver on June 28, 2018, 08:45:47 PM
I've always had a problem with CC ever since I first played Graces back in the day, and I have never, ever been able to articulate why. Lately I've been playing a bunch of action games, I think finally I can articulate (after literal years) why this resource system bothers me so much. After writing it down and running through it a few times, I want to post it here and get some feedback. Apologies for the length.

Stamina in Tales is indicative of the conflict between returning RPG elements and the greater emphasis that newer games place on action. Having not played Destiny DC, I'm approaching this from the perspective of Graces, Zestiria and Berseria, all played on higher difficulties. Please note that I'm not saying, implying, or in any way giving a single care as to whether or not TP is the superior resource: this is solely a look at stamina.

So before we really get into stamina, it's important to first look at what is arguably the biggest change to the series since free-run: side-stepping. Side-stepping is so noteworthy for how it heavily angles the gameplay more towards a pure action game by relying on a your physical reaction rather than a stat. Where once the focus was on damage mitigation through defence-stats and blocking, the series now emphasises perfectly timed dodging. Where once you could have a dedicated healer playing support, the effectiveness of healing spells has diminished significantly with each new release.

This is where the contradiction arises: Tales is clearly pushing the player towards a more combo-heavy action-game style of play, yet restricts it through the inclusion of a number of RPG elements. It allows your defensive capabilities to be limited only by physical skill and reaction, yet your offensive capabilities are limited by an RPG-styled resource system: stamina (CC/SC/SG). As if having stamina wasn't bad enough, extending your stamina requires dabbling in micro-management heavy equipment systems like Graces' dualising or Berseria's upgrading. Ultimately my defensive capacity reflective of (and rewarded by) my physical ability, but my offensive capacity is so heavily tied to (and rewarded by) my management of equipment.

Why is this bad? Well any action game worth its salt allows the player to dictate the flow of battle through their skill. The better one understands their own abilities and those of the enemies, the more aggressive they can be. Games like Devil May Cry or Bayonetta -- the peak of the combo-heavy action game -- exemplify this. With enough skill, bosses can be downed in a single ceaseless assault. By contrast, no matter how skilled a Tales player is (or how well they manage their equipment), they will inevitably run out of stamina.

The interesting thing is, it's not like the two must be mutually exclusive. Nier: Automata is a combo-heavy ARPG, yet it combined the action game elements and RPG elements very well. The player's physical skill is always rewarded, yet it featured levels, stats, and the chip system which affected the way you play the game. Best of all, the flow of combat is always controlled by the player, thanks to the lack of a stamina meter.

Now I'm not suggesting that Tales needs to copy Platinum Games. There are a dozen different approaches they could take. For years Tales has been a solid JRPG, but as it moves more fully into the realm of the ARPG (with an emphasis on action), I hope it can draw inspiration from other games which have tread this path before. I enjoy Abyss and Vesperia as RPGs, but for me Graces, Zestiria and Berseria feel like sub-par action games. A big first step to fixing this is to get rid of that stamina meter.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Kevadu on June 29, 2018, 03:04:28 AM
Going to have to completely disagree with you there.

First of all Graces and Berseria (I didn't play Zesteria so I won't comment on it) may both have 'stamina meters' (except not really) but they play completely differently so I wouldn't group them together like that.   I am going to focus on Graces because it actually did this system well... unfortunately strictly in terms of the battle system at least Berseria was a big step backwards.

I take issue with the very premise of your argument that stringing together long combos is somehow the defining characteristic of what makes a good action game, or that they are somehow necessary for the player to dictate the flow of the game.  BS.  One of my favorite 'fighting games' (using that term loosely) of all time, Virtual On, didn't even have combos.  Seriously, if your oponent takes more than a minor hit they would be knocked down and made temporarily invulnerable.  There was literally no way to pull off combos in that game.  Must be hard to dictate the flow of battle, right?  Far from it, that game was entirely about battle flow.  Being able to herd your opponent, anticipate their moves, feints, etc.  It was actually quite intense even when not a single hit was landing.

But let's get back to Tales of Graces.  Yes it has combos (and they could actually be rather long combos if you did it right) but it also has some of the elements I appreciated in a game like Virtual On.  Not a lot of faking out an opponent when you're fighting an AI I'm afraid but there still was a good amount of trying to read their moves and counter and punish them.  Sorry but the Tales games you praise such as Vesperia just felt like button mashers to me.  Graces was much more precise and technical.

And the CC meter fits nicely into that.  It was never difficult to recover CC and if you played the game correctly it really didn't slow things down.  But it did force you to have to play the game correctly.  Dodging, countering, exploiting weaknesses, etc.  If you did things right you got your CC back almost immediately.  If you screwed up...well, then you had to wait a bit for it to recharge.  But I think that's a fair penalty for screwing up.

This is also where Berseria unfortunately screwed up I think.  I spent vastly more time in Berseria waiting for SG to recharge than I ever waited for CC in Graces.  In Graces getting CC was a natural part of the flow in combat.  In Berseria it just isn't...all it does is slow things down.  So I can get your complaint if you were just talking about Berseria.  But you had to lump Graces in with it...no.  Just no.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Grainofariver on June 29, 2018, 04:10:29 AM
I take issue with the very premise of your argument that stringing together long combos is somehow the defining characteristic of what makes a good action game, or that they are somehow necessary for the player to dictate the flow of the game.
I never said that. I said that Tales was moving toward a combo-heavy styled action game. The emphasis on combos in Tales has grown ever since Symphonia (excluding Rebirth). This is obvious not only by the addition of mechanics which allow more freedom for comboing (Team Symphonia's gradual combo-extension skills, Xillia's free-chaining, etc.), but also the fact that the game literally gives you bonus experience based on your combo. Even grade rewards you for bigger combos.

Also I also never said that combos are necessary to dictating the flow of the game, only that a stamina meter inhibits it, which it inevitably does. Run out of CC/SC/SG and you are forced to go on the defensive. No amount of skill or technique will ever allow you to permanently remain on the offense. Ergo the flow of battle is not dictated by the player, but by the stamina bar.
Quote
BS.  One of my favorite 'fighting games' (using that term loosely) of all time, Virtual On, didn't even have combos.  Seriously, if your oponent takes more than a minor hit they would be knocked down and made temporarily invulnerable.  There was literally no way to pull off combos in that game.  Must be hard to dictate the flow of battle, right?  Far from it, that game was entirely about battle flow.  Being able to herd your opponent, anticipate their moves, feints, etc.  It was actually quite intense even when not a single hit was landing.
So it's not a combo heavy action game. That's fine. There are tons of games like that. Heck, Dark Souls is like that, and I love that game. But again, this is Tales, and Tales has been pushing more combo-heavy play for the past several games.
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But let's get back to Tales of Graces.  Yes it has combos (and they could actually be rather long combos if you did it right) but it also has some of the elements I appreciated in a game like Virtual On.  Not a lot of faking out an opponent when you're fighting an AI I'm afraid but there still was a good amount of trying to read their moves and counter and punish them.  Sorry but the Tales games you praise such as Vesperia just felt like button mashers to me.  Graces was much more precise and technical.
But that's the problem: only the defensive aspect is more precise and technical. If you dodge every single attack perfectly, you can be literally invincible. In other words, the only limit to your defensive capabilities is your skill (as I said).  Your offensive capability, on the other hand, is not equally rewarded. Rather, no matter how well you play offensively, you will inevitably run out of stamina , ending your combo and putting you on the defensive. No amount of skill can prevent this.
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And the CC meter fits nicely into that.  It was never difficult to recover CC and if you played the game correctly it really didn't slow things down.  But it did force you to have to play the game correctly.  Dodging, countering, exploiting weaknesses, etc.  If you did things right you got your CC back almost immediately.  If you screwed up...well, then you had to wait a bit for it to recharge.  But I think that's a fair penalty for screwing up.
This is where I call BS. No matter how well you played, you inevitably had to wait for CC to recharge. It was not a penalty, it was forced on the player regardless of what they did, which is my overall problem. I think if there was a system by which skilled OFFENSIVE play COULD consistently and reliably regenerate stamina, I might not take so much issue with it (though I'd definitely question why you'd even bother with stamina at this point).
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Aeolus on June 29, 2018, 03:23:27 PM
Oh hey, its the TP or not TP debate again.

I should note that TP was also a combo limiting factor, but that TP was originally treated like MP in DQ games which can let you go whole hog, but typically balanced it in a longer term capacity by forcing you to carry supplies or go back to town to resupply.

Its a matter of battle wide resource management or dungeon wide resource management.

But yeah, Berseria had the added issue of making it so that you really wanted at least 3 SG at all times to keep the Velveteen Blender running (of course, like so much of the rest of Berseria, while a neat idea on paper, the devs aren't willing to give you the tools to really leverage their system until the very tail end of the game, wherein they immediately tune everything to expect that you've fully utilized said tools, at which point you go "Why bother?").
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Grainofariver on June 29, 2018, 05:11:21 PM
Oh hey, its the TP or not TP debate again.
Noooooooooooooo! I specifically mentioned that it was not this because I don't want this to devolve into another TS v TD argument! I mention Abyss and Vesperia ONLY as references to how the series was once more reliant on stats and traditional JRPG mechanics, not as comparisons of their resource systems. You can look at past TD games for more RPG heavy systems too, but as none of them were translated, I haven't been able to play them (aside from about 5 hours of Rebirth), and therefor am not able to include them in this analysis.

FWIW I genuinely miss the old-school fighting-game styled camera more than the resource associated with it, but I think that's another thing that we'll never see again.

(I'm not really upset, I just greatly fear this would get turned into a TS v TD debate when that's absolutely not what I'm trying to say)

But let's get back to Tales of Graces.  Yes it has combos (and they could actually be rather long combos if you did it right) but it also has some of the elements I appreciated in a game like Virtual On.  Not a lot of faking out an opponent when you're fighting an AI I'm afraid but there still was a good amount of trying to read their moves and counter and punish them. 
The more I read this and think about it, the less I see it as a counter to my point. My post was never against the defensive half of Graces (or Zesteria/Berseria), but rather how the reactive-based defensive half didn't mesh with the RPG-based offensive one. I wasn't suggesting that they go back to the old way. In fact, I made no suggestions whatsoever other than the removal of stamina and to prop up Nier: Automata as an example of a better mesh of this type of hybrid gameplay.

If they DO opt to continue with this reactive-style defense, they absolutely should keep these elements -- in fact they should improve on them, because I feel enemy AI is severely lacking. However it needs to be accompanied by a complementary offensive system which isn't so rigidly limited by RPG mechanics.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Grainofariver on July 07, 2018, 12:50:26 PM
Okay Kevadu, I think I had a massive revelation, so hear me out.

I don't mean to suggest that all action games should be combo-centric, but for Tales combos are the bread-and-butter of your offense. They are really the only way to deal damage to an enemy, so the longer the combo, the more damage is done. This especially true in Graces, Zestiria and Berseria, where the damage bonuses for hitting weaknesses becomes a necessity on higher difficulties. If you can't string together a decent combo that hits all of those weaknesses, you're gonna have a bad time.

But here's the thing I realised -- the thing I kinda kept hinting at, but doing so clumsily because I didn't fully understand it: a 'combo' in Tales and a 'combo' in most action games are not the same thing. In most action games, a 'combo' only ends if you stop attacking for an extended period of time or you take damage. In Tales, a combo is defined exclusively by whether or not an enemy is stunned.

I think this is because the limited mobility in older games meant that the player needed more time to react to enemies. Since there was no intended way to cancel out of attack animations, sending a clear message to the player that the enemy was able to attack became really important. Stunned, keep attacking. Not stunned, attack at your own risk.

But with side-stepping, mobility has greatly improved. This sharp contrast between attack and defense is, in my opinion, no longer necessary. Some hit-stun is expected, but an enemy should be able to break out of it and retaliate. If the player reads this and side-steps at the right time, they can avoid damage and position themselves to resume their 'combo' (a.k.a. offense).

 CC/SC/SG (and other limits) exist because Tales is so reliant on hit-stun to define 'combos' (and thus the player's offense), but this way you don't need them: the better you can read and react to enemies, the longer you can maintain your combo. The precision you talk about still exists, and the player is still rewarded for skilled defensive play. It seems to me a much more natural way of merging the defensive/offensive sides of battle.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: bigdeath on July 10, 2018, 02:29:48 PM
I'll just say that I'm terrible at reading opponents moves, getting proper timing and countering enemy moves. Its why I suck at fighting games and avoid them so I'm quite happy to see tales games move away from that. Yeah, Beseria is quite a button masher but theres still depth to the gameplay on higher difficulty. The less I have to worry about proper timing the better.

The big downside for me with Beseria is the Dungeon design. Very bland with too many enemies, I don't bother to fight everything. Theres not much reward in doing so either. Its just a waste of time.

As for Velvet's design, I have no problem with it. *looks at avatar Err, if you couldn't tell already. I really don't mind fan service designs. :P
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Grainofariver on July 11, 2018, 07:39:49 PM
I'll just say that I'm terrible at reading opponents moves, getting proper timing and countering enemy moves. Its why I suck at fighting games and avoid them so I'm quite happy to see tales games move away from that. Yeah, Beseria is quite a button masher but theres still depth to the gameplay on higher difficulty. The less I have to worry about proper timing the better.
Thing is, on harder difficulties you kinda HAVE to be able to side-step and dodge. Healing is so reliant on break souls that you're gonna get annihilated if you don't avoid a healthy number of attacks. Given Graces' and Berseria's popularity I don't think this is the direction they're moving away from, but rather something we're gonna be seeing a lot more of. Personally I don't care: I like JRPGs and action games, so I'm fine either way. What bothers me is this in-between where neither aspect feels rewarding.

For example, party composition in Berseria was a complete joke. Since every character was designed to be competent on their own (a good trait from an action perspective!), it also means that the only character that matters is the one you chose. I played Berseria cycling party members out with each dungeon just to see different post-battle skits, and never noticed a difference in combat. Combined with the reduced significance of levels and skills/stats being tied to a god-awful equipment system (nevermind the RNG of random skills, why the HELL do I want to invest in upgrading a weapon a bunch of times when I know I'll find a new one in the next friggin' town!), it just felt really lame as an RPG

Unfortunately it didn't fare much better as an action game. All the environments are empty squares and circles, combos are limited by a stupid resource system, teammates can distract half the enemies in a battle, and this system of 'comboing' turns most enemies into sand-bags. Action-games are all about finding unique ways of challenging the player, but these elements -- inherited from older games -- keeps Berseria from providing the kind of engaging encounters I've come to expect from the best in the genre.

I don't care if they go back to the older style or not: I just want them to create something that can make combat feel rewarding again. Nier: Automata, Ys, Dark Souls 1... each of these games took a different approach to balancing their action elements and RPG elements, and in my opinion each one did so in a much, much better way than modern Tales.

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The big downside for me with Beseria is the Dungeon design. Very bland with too many enemies, I don't bother to fight everything. Theres not much reward in doing so either. Its just a waste of time.
With you 100% there. This is my single biggest problem with the post-Xillia games. I complain about the combat, but I'd much rather see this fixed. Contrary to what I've typed up here, Berseria really is my third favourite in the series due mostly to the characters, but it might be higher if not for the terrible environments. The thing I enjoy most about Tales is the adventure, so when that takes you through bland field and bland cave, it's a bit of a damper on the overall experience.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: bigdeath on July 11, 2018, 08:08:47 PM
I always up the difficulty of Beseria and I didn't have much a problem. And I'm terrible at timing. I'm not good at using Rokurou's counter though. lol
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Grainofariver on July 11, 2018, 10:54:11 PM
Maybe you're better than you think you are. No need for humility here friend: god knows I have none.

Excepting a few choice battles Tales has never been the most challenging of series, even on higher difficulties. I'm okay with that: just as a hard game shouldn't need to compromise its difficulty for the sake of accessibility, nor should every game need to demand my very best. I don't want Tales to be 'hard' in the sense that I die several times, but to be 'challenging' in the sense that I can feel some kind of satisfaction for winning battles.

On a side note, difficulty settings that do more than just give enemies more health would be neat. Lower difficulties make for slower enemies and longer hit-stun. The more you up the difficulty, the more aggressive enemies get and the shorter they remain stunned. And while I'm dreaming, throw a turbo mode that speeds everything up by 20%, because none of this will happen anyway.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: bigdeath on July 12, 2018, 12:20:49 AM
It might have to do with Velvet being OP. The game is much more challanging for me with some other characters on high difficulty.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on September 10, 2018, 01:31:12 PM
January 11th 2019 on PS4, XB1, PC Digital and Switch!

Too bad it's right after x-mas. I would have binged a playthrough on my holiday otherwise.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Aeolus on September 10, 2018, 05:15:19 PM
January 11th 2019 on PS4, XB1, PC Digital and Switch!

Too bad it's right after x-mas. I would have binged a playthrough on my holiday otherwise.

You didn't post an image of the Repede Steelbook Case. For shame.

(https://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/ToVDE-Init_09-10-18-600x600.jpg)

https://gematsu.com/2018/09/tales-of-vesperia-definitive-edition-launches-january-11-2019-in-the-americas-and-europe
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Limlight on September 11, 2018, 02:12:02 AM
I did a replay of the xbox version about 3 years ago, it still held up imo (nothing ground breaking it's a tales game ya know?) I'm really looking forward to trying it out with the new content and characters. The game is a gem to me.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Aeolus on September 11, 2018, 08:12:37 AM
https://gematsu.com/2018/09/tales-of-crestoria-announced-for-smartphones

So who ordered the mobage?

Hopefully this isn't the next mainline Tales game or its gonna be a long long while before I find myself round again in this thread.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on September 11, 2018, 08:36:48 PM
For a second there, I thought you said that the next Tales was a MOBA game.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: MonCapitan2002 on September 17, 2018, 02:19:44 PM
There is no new Tales game.  That garbage isn't part of the Tales series.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Annubis on November 24, 2018, 09:45:26 AM
It just occurred to me that now that we're getting a Vesperia remake... I don't know which remake I'd want next.
Feels like everything will be current enough after Vesperia.

I think anything 2D is too old now to be remade.
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Nel_Annette on November 25, 2018, 02:48:20 AM
I suppose if they really wanted to, they could go the Pokemon/Spyro/Crash route and remake the old 2D games in 3D with the latest engine and stuff. They wouldn't have to write any new scripts for a while. XD
Title: Re: Tales of Discussion 2: Dawn of the New Megathread
Post by: Aeolus on November 25, 2018, 04:48:58 AM
I suppose if they really wanted to, they could go the Pokemon/Spyro/Crash route and remake the old 2D games in 3D with the latest engine and stuff. They wouldn't have to write any new scripts for a while. XD

They can start with Tales of Destiny Director's Cut Definitive Edition H3D.