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Media => Single-Player RPGs => Topic started by: Alisha on March 18, 2011, 07:12:10 PM

Title: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Alisha on March 18, 2011, 07:12:10 PM
i pose this question. do you think the jrpg hate in this country is an actually hate of the games themselves,or hate of those that like jrpg's? even i have noticed that if i'm around my brothers and someone asks if i want to play halo someone will almost always say "nah she plays rpg's" as if because i play jrpg's some sterotype is being placed on me. sorta reminds me of the nerd bashing in the 80's.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Starmongoose on March 18, 2011, 07:15:27 PM
I have a lot of friends who do indeed mock me for liking JRPGs. Some of it is certainly deserved but some isn't, most of them have never even played a JRPG. Not that it would help, me showing them one now. Your game preference is something that catches you at an early age I think, and just sticks with you.

JRPGs are just simply not in the majority right now, compared to the mid-90's and pretty much anything now enjoyed by the majority is viewed with at least some degree of mocking.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: CDFN on March 18, 2011, 07:26:10 PM
I play a ton of rpgs. I also play lots of shooters. And racing games. And beat'em ups. These things aren't mutually exclusive. If you only play rpgs it's probably normal that people don't expect you to enter a halo deathmatch. I dunno, In my mind there are 2 genres of games, the ones that I like and the ones that I don't like.
I guess jrpgs aren't cool anymore so mainstream oriented gamers might consider people who play them nerds or something, I dunno.
You're talking about America so what the fuck do I know anyway, never been there in my life :-)
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Starmongoose on March 18, 2011, 07:28:17 PM
You're talking about America so what the fuck do I know anyway, never been there in my life :-)

I just expanded her question to "The World Outside of Japan" so that I could comment on it :P
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Sagacious-T on March 18, 2011, 07:28:44 PM
I like all genres of RPGs. It's just that JRPGs these days have gotten shittier and shittier, and the only good ones are the "Anime" JRPGs like Persona, or the ones that are western-inspired like Demons Souls. I'd say the biggest issue is quality.

Both the WRPG and JRPG genres have major dilemmas right now, traditional JRPGs are stale as fuck and WRPGs keep shifting and adjusting to accommodate the typical call of duty gamer.

It's not the era that is hurting JRPGs, it's the games themselves. The JRPG Genre is also extremely brand-name driven. Remember in the 90s where Squaresoft would just bust out some awesome new independent property RPG? Good luck with that now..

Then there's the whole maturity thing. JRPGs are literally aimed at children, while the bulk of the gaming market are people 20 and up.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Kevadu on March 18, 2011, 07:30:24 PM
Back in the good old days you were a nerd for playing any kind of video game.  When did this shit go mainstream?
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: John on March 18, 2011, 07:37:35 PM
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about, Alicia.  I have been made fun of by more people for loving hockey (several) than I ever have for liking JRPGs (0).
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Starmongoose on March 18, 2011, 07:43:46 PM
I don't think Alisha is making it up, I probably get made fun of for it more than any other thing I do. And I collect plushies. I'm not saying it is this epidemic, but yeah.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Commander Jubby Shepard on March 18, 2011, 07:50:33 PM
I think the worst I've seen is from someone who refused to like anything that wasn't set in the real world at a real time in a realistic way. This even included Cooking Mama apparently. Back to the RPG thing though; his reason for hating every RPG (didn't matter what it was, if it was an RPG this was his reason for hating it) was that "...monsters won't wait their turn to attack you." That included action RPGs too. I think that's about all I've seen for RPG hate though... Hrm... Umm... I've had a friend tell me why Halo was better than Mass Effect once. Does that count?

(The point of this bad post is to say that I don't really think I've seen RPG hate/ have never been made fun of or anything for liking RPGs (I have been made fun of for liking games no one has ever heard of though (which usually happen to be JRPGs, but that isn't the reason)))
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: CDFN on March 18, 2011, 07:50:49 PM
Back in the good old days you were a nerd for playing any kind of video game.  When did this shit go mainstream?


For me it was with the psone. I still remember how games like gran turismo, resident evil and tomb raider suddenly eradicated the "games are for kids" mentality.
People were too embarrassed to play sonic or super mario at a demo station in the middle of a mall, but GT? Hell no, that shit was cool. There were no cute animals jumping around, there were cars and they looked fucking real.
And Lara Croft? For the first time people would look at a videogame character (the art, not the in-game model mind you) and say "she's hot". I remember buying a gaming mag that had a special about tomb raider with lots of pics of Lara in bikini and night dress and some friends of mine who had never shown any interest in videogames were like: "wow is that from a game? What game is it? What's it like?"
Then later another friend of mine was reading the mag. He opens it on the Nights review and was like "wow, this is retarded, you're too old for this shit man". Next there's a review of F1 for the psone. "He looks at the pics for a few minutes in complete silence and then asks: "wow, games look like this now? This is so cool!". Then he looks at the score, realizes that it's slightly lower than Nights' and goes on a rant about how the reviewers must be retarded.
I was actually stupid enough to try to explain how great Nights was but he just looks at me and says: "Dude... WTF?"
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: dyeager on March 18, 2011, 08:10:22 PM
John likes JRPGs. He sucks!!!! Let's all laugh at him!

There, now the number is ONE.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Commander Jubby Shepard on March 18, 2011, 08:12:19 PM
John likes JRPGs. He sucks!!!! Let's all laugh at him!

There, now the number is ONE.

Now that I think about it, I think JRPG hate really only exists on the internet. In fact, good JRPGs seem to be played by everyone. I've even made the most harcore FPS gamer fawn over SMT: Strange Journey. Of course, I'm still one of the only two people I know who play JRPGs as close to religiously as I do.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Esper_Crusader on March 18, 2011, 08:20:17 PM
I can dig what she's getting at.  I can count on one hand the number of gamer friends that I have who like JRPG's.  Maybe 3 or 4.  Most(of my friends) are of the FPS or 'sandbox' genre but personally, JRPG's comprise a big chunk of my all-time favorites.  It's just that these days there aren't many titles that are of the caliber of say, the SQUARE juggernaut of the mid 90's. I guess that to appreciate the genre you'd have to be at least in your 20's(for the most part).  Get what i'm saying?
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: PotRoast on March 18, 2011, 08:25:21 PM
I was going to give a more elaborate response. But I'll give the quick version instead:

Xenophobia, ignorance, and the growing option to play games designed for Western instead of Eastern audiences.

I can't think of a single complaint of JRPGs that doesn't have an analogous complaint in WRPGs. A lot of the times it isn't even analogous, it's the exact same complaint!
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Kevadu on March 18, 2011, 08:25:39 PM
To everyone claiming it's a quality problem: There are still good JRPGs coming out, they're just obscure and largely ignored.  Look at Radiant Historia.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Commander Jubby Shepard on March 18, 2011, 08:31:26 PM
To everyone claiming it's a quality problem: There are still good JRPGs coming out, they're just obscure and largely ignored.  Look at Radiant Historia.


When I mention this, everyone ignores it. The JRPGs people know are Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, and anything released before this generation of consoles (and not even many at that). As far as they're concerned, Radiant Historia is some random, shitty Chrono Trigger ripoff I'm gay for.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Lard on March 18, 2011, 08:48:38 PM
Before, I think people would look at the anime stereotypes and/or the voice acting and laugh them off.

Now, it's trendy to say JRPGs (and Japan in general) are tired and Western RPGs are Teh Best. Plus the look at the character design and say something along the lines of "Is that a guy"? They totally dismiss a genre because of character design.

So, I would say it's more based on the games themselves.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: PotRoast on March 18, 2011, 09:08:44 PM
Plus the look at the character design and say something along the lines of "Is that a guy"?

I've had very little issue with distinguishing the gender of RPG characters. But I was starting to doubt this until my nephew of 5 years old was watching me play Digital Devil Saga one day. It immediately caught my attention when he referred to this guy:

http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/dds/art-009.jpg (http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/dds/art-009.jpg)

As a guy. He hadn't even heard him speak. He just knew. After quizzing him on all the characters I had acquired he didn't confuse the gender of any of them. In fact, he was rather confused why I was asking him questions with such obvious answers.

I don't know how a five year old who's not even allowed to play video games (they hype him up WAY too much if he actually plays) is so much better at this than all the complainers.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Commander Jubby Shepard on March 18, 2011, 09:14:04 PM
Before, I think people would look at the anime stereotypes and/or the voice acting and laugh them off.

Now, it's trendy to say JRPGs (and Japan in general) are tired and Western RPGs are Teh Best. Plus the look at the character design and say something along the lines of "Is that a guy"? They totally dismiss a genre because of character design.

So, I would say it's more based on the games themselves.

I've actually found the opposite is true. Most people I know who are un-knowledgeable about RPGs would prefer to play a JRPG to a WRPG because they assume it's more like the difference between anime and western cartoons. Of course now that I've reread what you said, I think I'm responding to the wrong idea/ can't tell what your point is...
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Annubis on March 18, 2011, 09:25:57 PM
Isn't it because America hates everything that isn't America?
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Yggdrasil on March 18, 2011, 09:37:16 PM
Isn't it because America hates everything that isn't America?

B-but Infinite Undiscovery and Star Ocean 4 are hilarious.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MeshGearFox on March 18, 2011, 09:48:34 PM
americas just hate everything that isn't farmville or halo
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Commander Jubby Shepard on March 18, 2011, 09:49:58 PM
americas just hate everything that isn't farmville or halo

This is just more proof that my mom must have cheated on my dad, otherwise I would be too white to enjoy Radiant Historia.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Arhkaos on March 18, 2011, 10:35:45 PM
I agree with you Kevadu. In fact, I'll extend by saying that the best RPGs I played in recent years are on the DS. I think the problem right now is that there is a high standard of quality on HD consoles, and it's tough to develop a good RPG on them. It forces developpers to make a game with good graphics, but loses some of the magic that some JRPGs had. Look at FFXIII: it looks amazing, but many people disliked its linearity. Well, I don't think it's possible for anybody to make a game that will be an epic 60-hour adventure and meeting the industry standard. Look at Nier. I think it was a great and original game well worth playing. The problem: it received bad reviews because its graphics weren't good enough. But the sad thing is, most people didn't buy it because of those bad reviews. Hell, I don't give a shit about graphics, I just want to have fun playing a good game. That is possible on the DS, with its limited graphics. A 32-bit styled game can receive great reviews as well, because of the console on which is released. Same thing on the PSP, which has some great "2D" RPGs. So, my point is: most people don't think playing the DS is "cool" enough and play PS3/360. And the JRPGs on these consoles are mostly bad, or if they're good theyr receive a bad reception from the mainstream. I think that's what lowers the general opinion of JRPGs. My conclusion: they should buy a DS!
Oh, and let's share a story. I work in a Gamestop. I think it happens one time every month that a customer asks me for a good RPG. I tell them that they are mostly on the DS nowadays. The answer is always something like: "Oh well, DS, you know... I prefer my PS3". I don't know why but it seems most people have a fear of the DS! Anyway, the solution is pretty much on the PSN/Xbox Live, where devs can release low-graphics games for a minimal price, and still receive good reviews because they're "indie".
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Commander Jubby Shepard on March 18, 2011, 10:41:42 PM
Oh, and let's share a story. I work in a Gamestop. I think it happens one time every month that a customer asks me for a good RPG. I tell them that they are mostly on the DS nowadays. The answer is always something like: "Oh well, DS, you know... I prefer my PS3". I don't know why but it seems most people have a fear of the DS! Anyway, the solution is pretty much on the PSN/Xbox Live, where devs can release low-graphics games for a minimal price, and still receive good reviews because they're "indie".

That reminds me of a story. The FPS person I know once tried to convince me to cancel my 3DS pre-order and buy a PS3 instead. His whole argument was, "The PS3 will have more games released on it than the 3DS." Over and over again. HE had no rhyme or reason, just a hate for Nintendo.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Annubis on March 18, 2011, 10:45:57 PM
Nintendo lost me want they told me they wanted me to move while playing games.
I play games to sit on my ass and move as little as possible, not the opposite.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Chronix112 on March 18, 2011, 11:01:25 PM
The problem with handhelds are simply a lot of people do not want to play on them.  I have adapted, but I do not care for them much either. I'd  rather play with a controller on my 50 inch plasma TV,  and  7.1 surround  sound system, which is what home consoles are good for.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MeshGearFox on March 18, 2011, 11:27:01 PM
Quote
Anyway, the solution is pretty much on the PSN/Xbox Live, where devs can release low-graphics games for a minimal price, and still receive good reviews because they're "indie".

'low-graphics'

Look if you were me I'd just assume you were being ironic, but you're not me. I'm me. And therefor I refuse to assume anything.

Quote
That reminds me of a story. The FPS person I know once tried to convince me to cancel my 3DS pre-order and buy a PS3 instead.

It's funny because all of the good FPSes are on the PC anyway.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Arhkaos on March 18, 2011, 11:46:50 PM
Oh, and let's share a story. I work in a Gamestop. I think it happens one time every month that a customer asks me for a good RPG. I tell them that they are mostly on the DS nowadays. The answer is always something like: "Oh well, DS, you know... I prefer my PS3". I don't know why but it seems most people have a fear of the DS! Anyway, the solution is pretty much on the PSN/Xbox Live, where devs can release low-graphics games for a minimal price, and still receive good reviews because they're "indie".

That reminds me of a story. The FPS person I know once tried to convince me to cancel my 3DS pre-order and buy a PS3 instead. His whole argument was, "The PS3 will have more games released on it than the 3DS." Over and over again. HE had no rhyme or reason, just a hate for Nintendo.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not the kind a person to force someone to share my ideas. When I'm asked for a good RPG, I just ask if the person has a DS as I have more suggestions on this one. But I do try to find a RPG on the console I'm asked. Well, on Wii it's harder though :P On PS3 i usually suggest either Fallout or Dragon Age: Fallout had a tremendous success, while less people seem to like DA:O (I usually get the graphics argument :P.
Oh and didn't mean wrong by "low-graphic" Jubby. I only used the term by opposition to HD and because most people seem to think that if it's not HD, it's ugly (well there was a little irony indeed!) But anyway, as I said, I don't care about graphics. I prefer things like a good story and good art direction. I don't really care about technical quality and resolution. Hell, I still have fun with my GameBoy and hell, are those games ugly!
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Commander Jubby Shepard on March 19, 2011, 12:02:05 AM
Oh, and let's share a story. I work in a Gamestop. I think it happens one time every month that a customer asks me for a good RPG. I tell them that they are mostly on the DS nowadays. The answer is always something like: "Oh well, DS, you know... I prefer my PS3". I don't know why but it seems most people have a fear of the DS! Anyway, the solution is pretty much on the PSN/Xbox Live, where devs can release low-graphics games for a minimal price, and still receive good reviews because they're "indie".

That reminds me of a story. The FPS person I know once tried to convince me to cancel my 3DS pre-order and buy a PS3 instead. His whole argument was, "The PS3 will have more games released on it than the 3DS." Over and over again. HE had no rhyme or reason, just a hate for Nintendo.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not the kind a person to force someone to share my ideas. When I'm asked for a good RPG, I just ask if the person has a DS as I have more suggestions on this one. But I do try to find a RPG on the console I'm asked. Well, on Wii it's harder though :P On PS3 i usually suggest either Fallout or Dragon Age: Fallout had a tremendous success, while less people seem to like DA:O (I usually get the graphics argument :P.
Oh and didn't mean wrong by "low-graphic" Jubby. I only used the term by opposition to HD and because most people seem to think that if it's not HD, it's ugly (well there was a little irony indeed!) But anyway, as I said, I don't care about graphics. I prefer things like a good story and good art direction. I don't really care about technical quality and resolution. Hell, I still have fun with my GameBoy and hell, are those games ugly!

I wasn't sayingyou were doing anything it just reminded me of a story. Oh, and I'm now going to suggest saying "Eternal Sonata" for the 360/ PS3 people if they're looking for something for kids. I think it's T-rated due to the theme of death or something. I think a total of two characters die though... One tries to commit suicide. In the opening sequence. I think Eternal Sonata is the epitome of JRPGness though. It hits every JRPG standard that isn't a cliche (and it hits some of those too).
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MindCandy on March 19, 2011, 11:33:44 AM
Well, shit like Ar Tanalco 3 sure won't help.
And I know I spelled it wrong. Don't care
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: bigdeath on March 19, 2011, 02:39:48 PM
Back in the good old days you were a nerd for playing any kind of video game.  When did this shit go mainstream?


QFT

Seriously, I'm just not friends with people that would mock me for playing JRPGs. I have friends that don't like JRPGs but they are mature enough not to pester me for enjoying them. Then again, most of my friends love RPGs, Anime, Sci-Fi and are generally geeky so life is good.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Zendervai on March 19, 2011, 03:50:51 PM
All I know is that a few people at my university hate everything from Japan. Their first exposure was that horrible Dante's Inferno anime. They refused to believe that Zelda and Mario were Japanese games though, because 'they're good games! They can't be from Japan!'
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Eusis on March 19, 2011, 04:18:21 PM
All I know is that a few people at my university hate everything from Japan. Their first exposure was that horrible Dante's Inferno anime. They refused to believe that Zelda and Mario were Japanese games though, because 'they're good games! They can't be from Japan!'

So much for wanting to shoot down xenophobia! Though that's an awful reason to be judgmental because it's more Korean and AMERICAN than Japanese (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1401113/fullcredits#cast).

Anyways, I think a lot of the backlash could be getting tired of the genre and novelty of WRPGs that are now more prevalent on consoles. Tying into that there's a lot about JRPGs that are considered archaic whether or not they should be (I tend to get annoyed with turn based being cited as such), but there really are a lot of JRPGs that are tiresome and dull to play because they don't address the faults very well (part of the reason I imagine turn based is considered archaic is due to drawn out, boring battles in games like Lost Odyssey), and it doesn't help when some like NIS seem to be increasingly more interested in pandering than keeping a modicum of taste.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Parn on March 19, 2011, 04:47:14 PM
people who play jrpgs are reek of doritos and sweaty socks and i avoid eye contact so their germs dont spread to me

i dont want to be judged by the public their opinion matters a lot

brb buyin iodized salt jrpgs are from japan and may have the radiation
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Alisha on March 19, 2011, 08:36:00 PM
haha. you forgot we also have rooms fulled with empty bottles of various flavors of mountain dew!
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MeshGearFox on March 19, 2011, 10:08:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OdE13itVZ0&feature=related

Relevant.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Akanbe- on March 19, 2011, 10:26:02 PM
Lately, like others have mentioned, I think it's just the state of the genre.  It's all pretty stale.  You know something is wrong when a Tales of game is considered one of the best current gen jrpgs. 

Thankfully, I do have some PSX/2 games I missed out on growing up and have them in my backlog to play now.  I also appreciate that I can throw on my rose-colored glasses and enjoy those older rpgs as well.


All I know is that a few people at my university hate everything from Japan. Their first exposure was that horrible Dante's Inferno anime. They refused to believe that Zelda and Mario were Japanese games though, because 'they're good games! They can't be from Japan!'

In same the same vein, people who make rants like that, then go off on their love of Street Fighter make me facepalm so hard.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about, Alicia.  I have been made fun of by more people for loving hockey (several) than I ever have for liking JRPGs (0).

Snooty people?  I haven't run into anyone like that on the east coast.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Alisha on March 19, 2011, 11:26:15 PM
thats just the thing i dont think its stale.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: bigdeath on March 20, 2011, 01:26:59 AM
thats just the thing i dont think its stale.

I even love FF13

*runs before the shit hits the fan*
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Sagacious-T on March 20, 2011, 02:02:35 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/q8N2E.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/MujfJ.jpg)
(http://www.gamingangels.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/HopeTidus.jpg)(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l50a4cWf461qbvmym.jpg)
this. this is why.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: insertnamehere on March 20, 2011, 02:07:56 AM
AEDIS ECLIPSE, MOTHERFUCKERS.
play it (http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/aediseclipse/index.html)
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Vaporeon on March 20, 2011, 02:56:02 AM
I don't understand the whole "androgynous characters" criticism. I know it's a matter of personal taste, but it just seems like a dumb reason to bash a game. I don't see how it detracts from the gameplay or storytelling. And frankly, I feel that with some(not all) of the people who make this criticism there's an undercurrent of homophobia. I noticed this watching Spoony's FFX review. Some people act as if all men should conform to our notions of masculinity, and if they don't they must be gay and gay=bad.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MeshGearFox on March 20, 2011, 03:01:32 AM
Vaan and Tidus aren't androgynous. It's just that Vaan looks like he's a 30 year old tanning bed addict trying to pass off as a 14 year old so he can star in some sort of creepy 'barely legal' "teenage" porno thing, whereas Tidus kind of does too actually only he dresses a lot worse.

Also alicia weren't you going to draw some monsters or something DON'T LEAVE ME HANGING BRO-LADY.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Lazlowe1984 on March 20, 2011, 04:03:50 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/q8N2E.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/MujfJ.jpg)
(http://www.gamingangels.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/HopeTidus.jpg)(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l50a4cWf461qbvmym.jpg)
this. this is why.

Sexy
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Aeolus on March 20, 2011, 04:08:50 AM
Ah. I remember the good old days when FFX first came out and everyone referred to him as to looking way too much like Meg Ryan.

And now that I think about it Hope was probably the stealth MC of FFXIII. Not-Cloud may have gotten top billing, but Hope was the Tidus/Vaan incarnate disguised as a side character. Notice how much time he spends with Not-Cloud much like Chad and Alys of PS4 (and really, all incarnations of the MC/Mentor relationship) except in this case Hope never gets the opportunity to take over for Not-Cloud. My guess is that Not-Cloud will die shortly into FFXIII2 and Hope will finally assume his rightful place as the game's Real MC.


Bullshit aside though, the issue is complicated for a number of reasons, but to boil it down into a short post that I can get out quickly and without confusing the forum goers of this site (because I can get really fucking confusing at times) is that the combination of the fallout from the PS2 era, MMOs, and the utter lack of quality meshed with the blind drive to turn JRPGs into semi-interactive movies. The PS2 era saw a huge boom of JRPGs, many of which are semi decent at best, but were considered to be visual tour de forces thanks to the power of the system versus the cost to develop on it. Thanks to the increased potential of the latest generation and thus cost as well as not quite having a clear surefire frontrunner console like the PS2, many developers sought to find cheaper alternatives like the DS, the PSP, or even Mobile Phones which have developed to the point of being able to play SuperNES and PSX era ports. Further they're still pulling the tricks and bad habits they learned back during the PS2 era like unnecessarily dividing one game into 3 or 4, reducing world building to employing an encyclopedia and turning the rest of it into bland hallways, or still following Squeenix's example of making JRPGs when they really haven't done anything worth mimicking. Additionally MMOs like WoW take a tremendous amount of available playtime for many people cutting into playtime for JRPGs and considering the social aspects of an MMO over the stodgy, recycled, plots of today's JRPGs there isn't even a competition. And finally, to alienate the core JRPG crowd they're moving further and further away from what little perceived control players might of had in the past (in all honesty they haven't lost much at all, if anything, it's just that they aren't even bothering to keep up the charade anymore) to make even more rigid and forced gameplay segments so that developers can focus on writing their stories that they were inspired to write based on their favorite day-time soaps' episode or whatever. They make the games based on how they want them to play out and further remove any sense of chance or variance for their stories to go wrong.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Alisha on March 20, 2011, 04:22:27 AM
this. this is why.
unconscious homophobia much? Lady Gaga would not be pleased >:(
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Yggdrasil on March 20, 2011, 05:20:45 AM
It's not homophobia, it's bad character design. And the fact that those characters are usually considered "annoying" by the majority doesn't help either.

I like Hope from Final Fantasy XIII though, is not a bad character (unlike Serah... or Snow to some degree).
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Desert Walker on March 20, 2011, 01:14:07 PM
I feel that the issue of devaluing the DS (and to a lesser extent, the PSP) which was mentioned earlier is an important piece of the puzzle.  Many people -- myself included until I got back into gaming recently -- tend to think of a portable gaming console as being, by nature, for on-the-go casual gaming.  They view it as being there for Brain Age, Picross, the latest handheld Mario, perhaps Tetris or a Sonic port.  (Please note that this is NOT a criticism of any of the titles I listed.)  Certainly not for a 30 + hour RPG.  It doesn't help matters that the DS has the dual screen/stylus feature which gives some outsiders a 'blackberry' vibe which cements their feeling that is an exclusively casual console.  (Again, not a criticism.)  It's hard for cthem to accept the idea that high-quality, massive, innovative RPGs are coming out on a device that does not hook up to a big screen TV.  And, it seems that in the current generation, this is where most of the great JRPGs are going, for a number of reasons listed earlier in the thread.  If the great JRPGs are going to handheld consoles which many people categorically refuse to acknowledge as a 'proper' place for RPGs and the consoles get mediocrities (with a few great games here and there) that sector of the gaming community is going to conclude that the (good) JRPG has gone the way of the dodo.

I don't understand the whole "androgynous characters" criticism. I know it's a matter of personal taste, but it just seems like a dumb reason to bash a game. I don't see how it detracts from the gameplay or storytelling.

In principle, I agree with this statement.  In practice, I think this viewpoint is somewhat naive.  The character design and art style of a game can, and will be used to judge the game, and it isn't limited to RPGs.  As an example:  Back in high school a JRPG obsessed friend of mine asked me what game I was playing.  At the time, it was Maximo: Ghosts to Glory.  He immediately started making fun of me, insisting that it was a children's game, citing that he had seen the box for the game at the rental store and that the cartoony art style and character design of the game was proof of this.  I repeatedly insisted that it was a challenging platformer that was clearly meant for a teenage and up crowd, because a child wouldn't be able to handle the level of difficulty it presented.  The mocking continued and he eventually agreed to rent the game for play over a weekend on the grounds that I would pay for the rental if it was a children's game.  He came back on Monday bitching about how I caused him to rent a game that was kicking his ass.  For another, more widespread example, think of the reaction to Wind Waker before (and shortly after) it came out.  In any case, his attitude represents that of a large number of gamers.  In an ideal world most gamers would make educated purchases wherein they spent time reading reviews for (or renting) games prior to buying them and didn't form prejudices based on the character design or art style of a game.  In reality,  many are more likely to look at a commercial for a game, or look at the box, or screenshots and say "Dude, that's bad-ass!" or, as you noted, "Dude, that's gay!" and make their decisions based on that.  Hell, look at how many copies CoD: Black Ops has sold!

Just for the record, I do not think that disliking androgynous character designs is intrinsically linked with homophobia, but I do feel that there is a common link between the two among average joe 'GTA *insert newest sequel* IS THE BEST GAME EVER' games.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: ULTROS! on March 20, 2011, 01:20:59 PM
Never knew America hated JRPGs.

I live in a culture where JRPGs and animu are highly embraced (games like Persona, BlazBlue, Final Fantasy, and Kingdom Hearts).
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Parn on March 20, 2011, 01:54:07 PM
more copies of ffxiii sold in america than in japan

japan hates jrpgs
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Yoda on March 20, 2011, 01:58:44 PM
I have a ton of friends that are gamers. My cousin Pete was huge into jrpgs before the days of WoW. He even has a ton of import psx titles.

Some of my earliest gaming memories are playing phantasy star on sms w/ him.


Most of my other buddies aren't into jrpgs except for a few exceptions but they don't hate them or hate on me for having an interest in them.

I think they stray away from them because of the time commitment some of the games demand. They probably also feel that the genre has become stagnant, and from a certain point of view that's valid. A lot of them enjoyed jrpgs in the PS2 generation but after all the games that system had to offer this group of consoles has been sort of a let down.

So in summary, they probably don't want to play 40-60hour games that have (in their minds) changed little and offer the same ole same ole


My buddy does love him some demon's souls though.  
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: TiamatNM on March 20, 2011, 02:13:45 PM
It's not homophobia, it's bad character design.

It really is.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Parn on March 20, 2011, 02:16:44 PM
you guys are homophobes

(http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk207/Meicyn/personaggi-seymour.jpg)

nomura is a genius
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: cj_iwakura on March 20, 2011, 02:30:22 PM
AEDIS ECLIPSE, MOTHERFUCKERS.
play it (http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/aediseclipse/index.html)

Quote
Developer:    Idea Factory

How about no.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Raze on March 20, 2011, 02:36:34 PM
Now there's plenty of manly men in jrpgs. Like this badass.

(http://i51.tinypic.com/23m3pkj.jpg)
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: ZeronHitaro on March 20, 2011, 02:59:02 PM
AEDIS ECLIPSE, MOTHERFUCKERS.
play it (http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/aediseclipse/index.html)

Quote
Developer:    Idea Factory

How about no.

How about...Firestone? :-P Just because a company makes a mistake here or there doesn't mean you should avoid them the rest of your days. There are some good games IF has had a hand in.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Vaporeon on March 20, 2011, 03:13:21 PM
In an ideal world most gamers would make educated purchases wherein they spent time reading reviews for (or renting) games prior to buying them and didn't form prejudices based on the character design or art style of a game.  In reality,  many are more likely to look at a commercial for a game, or look at the box, or screenshots and say "Dude, that's bad-ass!" or, as you noted, "Dude, that's gay!" and make their decisions based on that.  Hell, look at how many copies CoD: Black Ops has sold!

I agree. My point wasn't to dispute the notion that a prevalent amount of gamers will dismiss or bash games for insensible reasons, but to criticize the fact that they do.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Vaporeon on March 20, 2011, 03:17:27 PM
oops posting error
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Vanguard on March 20, 2011, 03:21:57 PM
I am America, and I hate JRPGs.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Starmongoose on March 20, 2011, 03:25:16 PM
I am America, and I hate JRPGs.

I am Britain and I agree with America, as usual.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Akanbe- on March 20, 2011, 03:52:53 PM
Pictures

Yeah, character designs like that are probably half the reason why there is hate.  The other half are probably because of irrational fanboys, like what you see on Gamefaqs, are incredibly annoying.  Ironically enough, the anti-fanboys that spawned are equally annoying.

Bullshit aside though, the issue is complicated for a number of reasons, but to boil it down into a short post that I can get out quickly and without confusing the forum goers of this site (because I can get really fucking confusing at times) is that the combination of the fallout from the PS2 era, MMOs, and the utter lack of quality meshed with the blind drive to turn JRPGs into semi-interactive movies. The PS2 era saw a huge boom of JRPGs, many of which are semi decent at best

PS2 had a lot of great games.  No clue what the fuck you're talking about.

Quote
Additionally MMOs like WoW take a tremendous amount of available playtime for many people cutting into playtime for JRPGs and considering the social aspects of an MMO over the stodgy, recycled, plots of today's JRPGs there isn't even a competition.

MMOs cut into all gaming playtime, not just RPGs.  Not even a competition?  Nope.  Sorry, but I'd rather not waste time out of my day to play with the dredges of life aka your average MMO player.  After awhile, holding the hand of the rest of your party because they stand in the fire or are spouting off random racist jokes gets old very very quickly.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: CDFN on March 20, 2011, 03:56:08 PM
Now there's plenty of manly men in jrpgs. Like this badass.

(http://i51.tinypic.com/23m3pkj.jpg)

That's a guy?! You can't be serious. From what game is that?
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: kyuusei on March 20, 2011, 03:57:30 PM
Quote
In reality,  many are more likely to look at a commercial for a game, or look at the box, or screenshots and say "Dude, that's bad-ass!" or, as you noted, "Dude, that's gay!" and make their decisions based on that.  Hell, look at how many copies CoD: Black Ops has sold!

Welllll, some companies (cough cough Activision, Treyarch) also have way more marketing $$$ than most JRPG devs/pubs. JRPGs don't have a very wide audience these days to begin with especially compared to FPSes, let alone the resources for a good promotion campaign.

Now there's plenty of manly men in jrpgs. Like this badass.

(http://i51.tinypic.com/23m3pkj.jpg)

That's a guy?! You can't be serious. From what game is that?


Ha, Lucius from Fire Emblem GBA. I can't get over the womanly hips on him.  (Fun fact: he was 'Lucia' in the Japanese version of FE: Rekka no Ken. :-P)

I am Canada and still love some JRPGs. I've been much more selective these days.

The PS2 was also a fantastic JRPG era, and my favourite for the genre (tied with the late SNES era that is - the latter didn't bring me MegaTen, though).
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Fei on March 20, 2011, 04:09:39 PM
(http://elder-geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Top.jpg)

Hyperdimension Neptunia: a JRPG for the straight man or homosexual woman, AKA the people

not that gay men aren't people, I'm just playing on the homophobia angle here
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: cj_iwakura on March 20, 2011, 04:20:30 PM
Now there's plenty of manly men in jrpgs. Like this badass.

(http://i51.tinypic.com/23m3pkj.jpg)

My example would be Wein Cruz from Growlanser 2.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Annubis on March 20, 2011, 04:27:29 PM
Memorable Traps in Video Games - Games at IGN
http://games.ign.com/articles/916/916102p1.html

oh wai...
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Sagacious-T on March 20, 2011, 05:08:38 PM
I don't care about transgendered or homosexual characters, they're fine. Characters like Vaan and Tidus are just pure shit though. The little kid gimmicks have to go as well.

I mean look at this shit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlHZrBUimuY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-KL0Cpke9U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNauq6_9iP0
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Annubis on March 20, 2011, 05:17:46 PM
I don't care about transgendered or homosexual characters, they're fine. Characters like Vaan and Tidus are just pure shit though. The little kid gimmicks have to go as well.

If Vaan looked this badass, I would have put him in my party

(http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/4946/9ca3b49e91077ab633d49b7.jpg)
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Starmongoose on March 20, 2011, 05:19:13 PM
What is wrong with her legs!?
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Annubis on March 20, 2011, 05:21:42 PM
That's a very Korean style of drawing. Nothing weird.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Parn on March 20, 2011, 05:25:20 PM
(http://elder-geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Top.jpg)

(http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk207/Meicyn/trolling/damn.jpg)
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Sagacious-T on March 20, 2011, 05:26:11 PM
I don't care about transgendered or homosexual characters, they're fine. Characters like Vaan and Tidus are just pure shit though. The little kid gimmicks have to go as well.

If Vaan looked this badass, I would have put him in my party

(http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/4946/9ca3b49e91077ab633d49b7.jpg)

Hell yeah. I mean the vest still looks stupid, but that's a big improvement. Vaan could have been so much cooler but he ended up being a personality void hunk of flamboyant man-meat.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Desert Walker on March 20, 2011, 07:12:14 PM
Quote
In reality,  many are more likely to look at a commercial for a game, or look at the box, or screenshots and say "Dude, that's bad-ass!" or, as you noted, "Dude, that's gay!" and make their decisions based on that.  Hell, look at how many copies CoD: Black Ops has sold!

Welllll, some companies (cough cough Activision, Treyarch) also have way more marketing $$$ than most JRPG devs/pubs. JRPGs don't have a very wide audience these days to begin with especially compared to FPSes, let alone the resources for a good promotion campaign.

Agreed, but I'm not saying that makers of RPGs need massive marketing dollars and TV commercials to compete.  All I'm saying is that, for better or for worse, more 'normal' (less androgynous) character design would likely contribute to sales because even without commercials people would still focus on box art, screen shots they found online, that sort of thing.  Whether they should do that is another matter entirely, and is not a point that I'm trying to argue.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Fei on March 20, 2011, 07:17:07 PM
What is wrong with her legs!?

Fish eye lens.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Starmongoose on March 20, 2011, 07:18:17 PM
What is wrong with her legs!?

Fish eye lens.


Ah that makes a lot more sense.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Chronix112 on March 20, 2011, 07:25:05 PM
There  will always be androgynous looking male characters in jrpgs. Its what is popular  with the Japanese youth in general. The beefy meatheads we westerners like are considered hard-gay over there. Hell, just look at male J rock or J-pop stars. If you did not know any better some of them could pass for being female.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Sagacious-T on March 20, 2011, 07:29:52 PM
Quote
In reality,  many are more likely to look at a commercial for a game, or look at the box, or screenshots and say "Dude, that's bad-ass!" or, as you noted, "Dude, that's gay!" and make their decisions based on that.  Hell, look at how many copies CoD: Black Ops has sold!

Welllll, some companies (cough cough Activision, Treyarch) also have way more marketing $$$ than most JRPG devs/pubs. JRPGs don't have a very wide audience these days to begin with especially compared to FPSes, let alone the resources for a good promotion campaign.

Agreed, but I'm not saying that makers of RPGs need massive marketing dollars and TV commercials to compete.  All I'm saying is that, for better or for worse, more 'normal' (less androgynous) character design would likely contribute to sales because even without commercials people would still focus on box art, screen shots they found online, that sort of thing.  Whether they should do that is another matter entirely, and is not a point that I'm trying to argue.

Its not about being normal its about not being retarded.

I mean look at Geralt from the Witcher. He's an 80 year old buff man with long white hair and cat eyes.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Alisha on March 20, 2011, 07:33:06 PM
maybe its eye candy for girl gamers in japan? not sure if a higher percentage of girls in japan play rpgs when compared with western girls. i know i was surprised when Naoto won the beauty contest in P4 largely due to female votes.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Desert Walker on March 20, 2011, 07:34:50 PM
Quote
In reality,  many are more likely to look at a commercial for a game, or look at the box, or screenshots and say "Dude, that's bad-ass!" or, as you noted, "Dude, that's gay!" and make their decisions based on that.  Hell, look at how many copies CoD: Black Ops has sold!

Welllll, some companies (cough cough Activision, Treyarch) also have way more marketing $$$ than most JRPG devs/pubs. JRPGs don't have a very wide audience these days to begin with especially compared to FPSes, let alone the resources for a good promotion campaign.

Agreed, but I'm not saying that makers of RPGs need massive marketing dollars and TV commercials to compete.  All I'm saying is that, for better or for worse, more 'normal' (less androgynous) character design would likely contribute to sales because even without commercials people would still focus on box art, screen shots they found online, that sort of thing.  Whether they should do that is another matter entirely, and is not a point that I'm trying to argue.

Its not about being normal its about not being retarded.

I mean look at Geralt from the Witcher. He's an 80 year old buff man with long white hair and cat eyes.

I put normal in scare quotes for a reason.  I'm not trying to argue that the sort of stereotypical musclebound meat heads you'll find in western games are superior, just that they may sell better.  That said, yes, WRPGs have some ridiculous character designs, too.  I think that Bioware tends to strike a nice balance most of the time, though.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: kyuusei on March 20, 2011, 08:26:41 PM

Agreed, but I'm not saying that makers of RPGs need massive marketing dollars and TV commercials to compete.  All I'm saying is that, for better or for worse, more 'normal' (less androgynous) character design would likely contribute to sales because even without commercials people would still focus on box art, screen shots they found online, that sort of thing.  Whether they should do that is another matter entirely, and is not a point that I'm trying to argue.

In no way am I suggesting an ad campaign like Black Ops (or any CoD) had. That was hugely extensive, and the TV spot was great. But no, JRPGs don't need that, it's impossible if you're not Activision. I'm saying advertising would help on ANY level. It doesn't have to be on TV. You get your game out there, people will ask what it is and look into it and talk about it. You don't, people will have no idea what the fuck it is and often not bother with researching.

In terms of JRPGs, we are not likely to lose the androgynous characters anytime soon. Japan seems particularly fond of them, even if some westerns aren't so much. I doubt they're as much a factor to many people as say, gameplay is.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Ashton on March 20, 2011, 08:34:12 PM
It's kind of funny the opposite generalizations of gay men in east-west society.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Desert Walker on March 20, 2011, 08:36:06 PM

Agreed, but I'm not saying that makers of RPGs need massive marketing dollars and TV commercials to compete.  All I'm saying is that, for better or for worse, more 'normal' (less androgynous) character design would likely contribute to sales because even without commercials people would still focus on box art, screen shots they found online, that sort of thing.  Whether they should do that is another matter entirely, and is not a point that I'm trying to argue.

In no way am I suggesting an ad campaign like Black Ops (or any CoD) had. That was hugely extensive, and the TV spot was great. But no, JRPGs don't need that, it's impossible if you're not Activision. I'm saying advertising would help on ANY level. It doesn't have to be on TV. You get your game out there, people will ask what it is and look into it and talk about it. You don't, people will have no idea what the fuck it is and often not bother with researching.

In terms of JRPGs, we are not likely to lose the androgynous characters anytime soon. Japan seems particularly fond of them, even if some westerns aren't so much. I doubt they're as much a factor to many people as say, gameplay is.

I understand what you're saying now.  And you're right on point in regards to advertising, I think, most JRPG advertising is reliant upon e-mailing lists and game reviews.  (Essentially, word of mouth.)  I agree that we're not going to lose those androgynous characters any time soon given the Japanese market for them, I'm just suggesting that they don't hold an appeal to the western market of casual gamers which is at least some of what leads to the JRPG hate the thread is about.  There are some elements of game play that turn people off (turn-based combat comes to mind), but any time I see someone making fun of JRPGs it tends to be related to the image, not the game play.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: cj_iwakura on March 20, 2011, 08:48:12 PM
It's not a JRPG, but Catherine built up a ridiculous amount of hype just on word of mouth based on how weird the dang game was.

I'd never seen a niche Atlus game pick up that much attention.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Prime Mover on March 20, 2011, 10:11:10 PM
I think there are several reasons western gamers don't like jRPGs. Some nationalistic, some cultural, some just plain ignorant (though probably less than we'd like to think).

First, look how many people in America refuse to even look at a Toyota? I mean, Toyota has HUGE MAN TRUCKS! Never short on the testosterone, hard-core image, and have an automobile to fit just about every american lifestyle. They get better mileage, last longer, etc. Honda, Nissan and Subaru too. Yet nationalistic pride keeps some from reaching outside of their culture for items. That makes up a certain percentage.

Then there's a few major cultural reasons:

First, there's the "freedom" issue. Americans / Westerners love their freedom (and I'm generalizing here, so bear with me). The concept of unbridled freedom is a bit of a rally cry to Westerners. Sometimes to a fault. Many times we'd lower our quality of living and/or happiness for one small freedom. Maybe it's something we can be proud of, maybe not. But it is something that plays into Western perception of jRPGs. Some people of the world find peace in feeling like they have a given destiny. Japanese culture and spirituality has had a long history of learning to enjoy ones place, and not having to feel like they have to spend their lives fighting an uphill battle. I think that has translated into Japanese people being much more willing to appreciate a pre-dictated story environment in a game. One of the biggest complaints about jRPGs I hear from american game critics is that they lack freedom. We may see that as a defect, while some may see it as a chance of exploring a rich, pre-determined world, and enjoying the artistry of its creator. The differences are very stark. Almost all wRPGs have user-creatable characters with intense decision making. Almost all jRPGs have pre-determined characters with their own un-modifiable personalities. There are obviously exceptions on both sides.

There's differences in aesthetic value. Americans have a strong love for stark realism. We took to photography (a German invention) extremely well, and cinematography (a French invention) even more. We're a young nation, and we came about during a period of scientific advancement, and I think it defined our national psyche quite a bit. Where-as nations like England and Japan have rich history of stylized stage plays, America got busy with making photography and cinematography as physically and scientifically "real" as we could hope to accomplish. We take a lot of pride in this, and indeed, we've made huge advancements in creating life-like entertainment. So it would make sense that American games (as in film) would strive toward stark realism, while other cultures may be more at peace with stylization. Even our fantasy and science fiction attempts stylistic realism.

Finally, there are different demographic comfort zones between different cultures. I'm not going to argue that Americans/westerners are obsessed with gender identity... on the contrary, I think that's pretty typical for all cultures. But gender and age identity is different between different cultures. To a Japanese person, a bishonan Sephiroth isn't any less masculine than Auron. We often mistake this for "Sephiroth looks feminine", but within Japanese culture, he has a distinctly masculine image. It's much more normal and acceptable. Similarly, the boundaries between what is defined as "childish" and "adult" are different. They're probably just as distinct as they are in the west, just different. An image or style that may be viewed as being with the "adult" realm of taste may be considered childish to a westerner. Hence, greater acceptance of animation and hand-drawn styling in adult Japanese entertainment.

So much of personal enjoyment is based on what we're told, by our cultures, is appropriate for our demographic. Something that is aimed at a totally different demographic often makes us feel uncomfortable. "I shouldn't enjoy this because only young girls are supposed to like this... enjoying this must mean that I'm like I'm a young girl, not a adult man". So when one culture's stylistic boundaries are different for different demographics than another culture's, it can be very confusing, and can be uncomfortable for the same demographic in the other culture.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Sagacious-T on March 20, 2011, 11:07:46 PM
I think there are several reasons western gamers don't like jRPGs. Some nationalistic, some cultural, some just plain ignorant (though probably less than we'd like to think).

First, look how many people in America refuse to even look at a Toyota? I mean, Toyota has HUGE MAN TRUCKS! Never short on the testosterone, hard-core image, and have an automobile to fit just about every american lifestyle. They get better mileage, last longer, etc. Honda, Nissan and Subaru too. Yet nationalistic pride keeps some from reaching outside of their culture for items. That makes up a certain percentage.

Then there's a few major cultural reasons:

First, there's the "freedom" issue. Americans / Westerners love their freedom (and I'm generalizing here, so bear with me). The concept of unbridled freedom is a bit of a rally cry to Westerners. Sometimes to a fault. Many times we'd lower our quality of living and/or happiness for one small freedom. Maybe it's something we can be proud of, maybe not. But it is something that plays into Western perception of jRPGs. Some people of the world find peace in feeling like they have a given destiny. Japanese culture and spirituality has had a long history of learning to enjoy ones place, and not having to feel like they have to spend their lives fighting an uphill battle. I think that has translated into Japanese people being much more willing to appreciate a pre-dictated story environment in a game. One of the biggest complaints about jRPGs I hear from american game critics is that they lack freedom. We may see that as a defect, while some may see it as a chance of exploring a rich, pre-determined world, and enjoying the artistry of its creator. The differences are very stark. Almost all wRPGs have user-creatable characters with intense decision making. Almost all jRPGs have pre-determined characters with their own un-modifiable personalities. There are obviously exceptions on both sides.

Translators Note:
"Will you help me?"
Yes
[No]
"C'mon please?"
Yes
[No]
"C'mon please?"
Yes
[No]
"C'mon please?"
[Yes]
No
"Enjoy your Quest"

There's differences in aesthetic value. Americans have a strong love for stark realism. We took to photography (a German invention) extremely well, and cinematography (a French invention) even more. We're a young nation, and we came about during a period of scientific advancement, and I think it defined our national psyche quite a bit. Where-as nations like England and Japan have rich history of stylized stage plays, America got busy with making photography and cinematography as physically and scientifically "real" as we could hope to accomplish. We take a lot of pride in this, and indeed, we've made huge advancements in creating life-like entertainment. So it would make sense that American games (as in film) would strive toward stark realism, while other cultures may be more at peace with stylization. Even our fantasy and science fiction attempts stylistic realism.

(http://www.diablo3.com.au/wow/images/gnomes/characters-gnomes.gif)

"12 million fans of Stark Realism"

Finally, there are different demographic comfort zones between different cultures. I'm not going to argue that Americans/westerners are obsessed with gender identity... on the contrary, I think that's pretty typical for all cultures. But gender and age identity is different between different cultures. To a Japanese person, a bishonan Sephiroth isn't any less masculine than Auron. We often mistake this for "Sephiroth looks feminine", but within Japanese culture, he has a distinctly masculine image. It's much more normal and acceptable. Similarly, the boundaries between what is defined as "childish" and "adult" are different. They're probably just as distinct as they are in the west, just different. An image or style that may be viewed as being with the "adult" realm of taste may be considered childish to a westerner. Hence, greater acceptance of animation and hand-drawn styling in adult Japanese entertainment.

PhD on Japanese Culture folks right here. Sephiroth = Auron. Target demographic for JRPGs and shonen/shoujo anime are 40 year old Japanese Businessmen. Nobody in Japan considers JRPG characters childish.

So much of personal enjoyment is based on what we're told, by our cultures, is appropriate for our demographic. Something that is aimed at a totally different demographic often makes us feel uncomfortable. "I shouldn't enjoy this because only young girls are supposed to like this... enjoying this must mean that I'm like I'm a young girl, not a adult man". So when one culture's stylistic boundaries are different for different demographics than another culture's, it can be very confusing, and can be uncomfortable for the same demographic in the other culture.
(http://i.imgur.com/CuLRR.jpg)
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Ashton on March 20, 2011, 11:11:22 PM
I have to admit, that was actually pretty funny for once.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MeshGearFox on March 20, 2011, 11:51:33 PM
Stuff.

I agree with basically none of your points. I will refute them as such:

Argument: Americans love realism.

Counterargument 1: The most popular WRPG ever has blue space cows and werewolves in top hats, also you can ride giant blue cats.

Counterargument 2: Most JRPG art is seriously just godawful and looks like it was pulled from DeviantArt.

Addendum to Counterargument 2: Same applies to M:TG art from the last eight years or so. Seriously, what the fuck?

Counterargument 3: The sort of realism you see in American games and cinemas is more romanticism revival anyway. Muted, natural colors? Bloom? Epic grandiosity? That's by the numbers romanticism.

Argument: Americans and Japanese have different views on gender roles which affects how Americans perceive JRPGs.

Counterargument: I haven't actually seen an WRPG player call JRPGs girly or refer to the characters as girl. I've only seen other JRPG players do that. Usually in regards to why Kefka is better than Sephiroth.

Addendum to Counterargument: Sephiroth's in-game art is more malproportioned and preternaturally aged than 'bishounen' anyway.

Argument: Americans perceive cartoons as childish.

Counterargument: The Simpsons, Pixar. Also bronies.

Argument: Americans love freedom.

Counterargument 1: A lot of WRPGs are not made by Americans.

Counterargument 2: The degree of freedom evolved out of the medium. More open ended games need bigger save files to track all the stuff you can be doing. NES games, by comparison, didn't even really have save batteries till later on and they didn't allow for particularly big saves anyway, so the degree of freedom you had was sort of constrained...

Counterargument 3: Except even then, even early JRPGs weren't THAT linear. Dragon Quest 1 technically let you go anywhere from the beginning. The only constraint was monster difficulty. Zelda wasn't linear. Phantasy Star 1 allowed for quite a bit of sequence breaking.

Counterargument 4: And even then, there were a lot of more Westernish/non-linear JRPGs that never got localized, so the US perception of JRPGs is sort of skewed from that anyway.

Counterargument 5: Extremely open-ended American-made WRPGs are hardly the norm and are pretty much restricted to The Elder Scrolls, Might and Magic, and a few sort-of-obscure titles like Darklands. I was going to list some other titles like The UnReal World and Mount & Blade except those are Finnish and Turkish. The other series that has TES style openendedness, I guess, was Realms of Arkania, except that was German.

Addendum to Counterargument 5: TES is sort of reviled outside of its fanbase. I mean, among WRPG fans. Contrary to popular belief, WRPG fans actually like storylines.

Counterargument 6: Gamers also have really weird notions of linearity and what it even entails. Non-linearity in WRPGs usually means you don't have plot-induced travel restrictions on where you can go in the game world. Storylines are still fairly linear in their basic layout although they generally allow for some branching.

Counterargument Fin: Gamers love to argue and will inflate minor differences until they seem huge to prove that their side is better out of some misguided sense of elitism.

Toyota

Americans don't like Toyotas because the brakes don't work.

---edit---

Oh fuck you WoW was my example.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Ashton on March 21, 2011, 12:34:43 AM
Prime Mover's post is the biggest pile of horseshit I've ever had the misfortune of reading. If you haven't read it yet, do yourself a favor and don't.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Dice on March 21, 2011, 12:53:52 AM
Prime Mover's post is the biggest pile of horseshit I've ever had the misfortune of reading. If you haven't read it yet, do yourself a favor and don't.

It's got a few points, but it's way, waaay too generalized. 

I think the biggest point in the differences is mostly a matter of culture.  It's a difficult notion to pin down otherwise, especially with the decline of JRPGs in the recent years.
I personally throw it to: tradition (JRPGs are moreso), aesthtics (sometimes over-sized key weapons, and hair that is made up of all sorts of diagonals aren't the best route to appeal to all), themes (WRPGs are more to the point, Japanese like inserting themes and have trouble not hitting cheeseball dialogue as they do it), and yeah, culture.

I think anime itself has been getting a bad rap over the years for it's over-the-top-ness, combining cute and sexy, epic and retardedly ludicrous, and odd balance of cartoon but potentially adult.  Audiences here may have trouble with it, we haven't grown with it the same way the Japanese have.

I've said it before; but I credit FF's constant success in the States part of the fact they diverted from the cartoon-y style that FF7 had and kept it real (which seems to work for audiences here). 

Nevertheless, numerous Japanese publishers enjoy a ton of success here too, no?
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Ashton on March 21, 2011, 01:08:25 AM
It does have to do with culture, but more due to how Asian cultures and society in general tend to remain stagnant and stay with what they're comfortable with rather than accept any deviation from the norm. Innovation is embraced and praised in the west but in the east every stray nail has to be smashed down; it's all about staying inside the box. Of course, there ARE always exceptions, but yeah....

I mean, DQ9 furor, anybody?
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Dice on March 21, 2011, 01:12:19 AM
Hard to say that without applying it to the West either.  Quite frankly, both cultures seem cozy in the "box" where the video game ideas come from.

It's a tough debate.  But the definite pride in masculinity and femininity I think has another big part into it.  Unless, 2ch has remarks that SquareEnix's latest lead character looks to feminine.

I don't know.  I don't feel like typing, this debate could go on forever and more than I'm willing to talk about at the moment.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Ashton on March 21, 2011, 01:24:27 AM
True, the West also has a box, but people and companies are judged much less harshly - sometimes even praised - for thinking outside of it.

In many of my experiences, Asians equate different with bad, regardless of the difference. It's why I'm still out of my element in Asian countries despite being Asian myself.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MeshGearFox on March 21, 2011, 01:27:48 AM
You had me at 'box'.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Mullane on March 21, 2011, 01:33:22 AM
I think PrimeMover has some good points and while these kinds of things certainly are adding to the problem, they are probably not the biggest factor. Game quality over the last few years is probably playing a major part.

I do think however that since gaming has becoming trend driven/cool, the things that sell and things that don't are much more defined. American gamers (generalising here) are currently following the trend of "cool" games, being shooters and a the like, and people who would have normally been interested in JRPG's are pressured into liking the "cool" games (either by society or people they associate with). It would seem that good games in the JRPG genre are largely overlooked by the general populace/trends (Nier and Valkyria Chronicles) and are only spread through more gamers by VERY strong word of mouth, anything less than stellar is not given that kind of attention by the fans.

There also seems to be a fad for reviewers rating an average JRPG a lot lower than an average shooter, and as far as I can tell, sites like Metacritic and reviews are having a very large impact on game sales.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MeshGearFox on March 21, 2011, 03:30:21 AM
Stuff.

1. Games have always been trend driven. Assuming that means what I think it means.

2. Gaming trends are unpredictable as hell and trying to do so is largely pointless. Look at last year. Minecraft and Angry Birds were pretty damn successful. So were several FPSes and the Pokemon remakes. There probably IS an underlying trend there but good luck finding it.

3. Games are like 60 dollars these days anything less than stellar from any genre gets ignored because nobody can afford it.

4. From what I can gather the average JRPG lately has been pretty mediocre. JRPGs generally need to go out of their way to be fun more than your average FPS does because if an FPS is sort of mediocre, it's still an FPS. If a JRPG is mediocre, it's just a bunch of menus.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Mullane on March 21, 2011, 04:58:39 AM
Stuff.

1. Games have always been trend driven. Assuming that means what I think it means.

2. Gaming trends are unpredictable as hell and trying to do so is largely pointless. Look at last year. Minecraft and Angry Birds were pretty damn successful. So were several FPSes and the Pokemon remakes. There probably IS an underlying trend there but good luck finding it.

3. Games are like 60 dollars these days anything less than stellar from any genre gets ignored because nobody can afford it.

4. From what I can gather the average JRPG lately has been pretty mediocre. JRPGs generally need to go out of their way to be fun more than your average FPS does because if an FPS is sort of mediocre, it's still an FPS. If a JRPG is mediocre, it's just a bunch of menus.

1&2)All you seem to have done is nitpick on terms I have used.

What I meant by "trend" would probably be better described by "hit". Similar to movies, only the hyped movies, well known and "cool" (again generalising) do consistantly well in box office. There are exceptions, like you mentioned, and I will liken those to sleeper hits in the indie movie scene.

3) What I meant by "anything less than stellar is not given that kind of attention by the fans". Is that anything less than stellar in the JRPG genre won't get the kind of word of mouth driven sales given to all the popular games selling today.

4) Is it really the case that comparing average JRPG to average shooter will have the shooter come out the better game? That seems exactly like the belief that many reviewers have at the moment. (I am seriously asking, I do not play a whole lot of shooters, but from my experience the average shooters I have played have been less than that.)
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Eusis on March 21, 2011, 05:10:06 AM
The thing with being more hit driven is due to the cost going into developing games. Mega Man 2 got 2 million sales years back and that was a smash success, some games won't even break even pulling that many, or will be considered underwhelming for it.

And while I don't think this is what Mesh was getting at with FPSes (probably the basic "run and shoot things" gameplay), they ARE on average much shorter games, usually between a fifth and a tenth the size. Personally I think I'm harder to please with FPSes, especially since I generally like them best when they're at least somewhat open ended (contrast Doom and Bioshock with Call of Duty), but I'm more likely to actually finish a mediocre FPS because it's that much smaller of a time investment than a mediocre RPG.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Sagacious-T on March 21, 2011, 05:21:24 AM
Good FPS have longevity through Multiplayer. Hell, Multiplayer IS the game for a lot of the more popular FPS. The Single Player is just garnishing.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Alisha on March 21, 2011, 06:35:51 AM
its that group of online mutiplayer fps players that i see most of the hate come from. and because the gaming media *coughgameinformercough* wants to apease them they jump on the bandwagon.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Sagacious-T on March 21, 2011, 06:42:17 AM
oh shut up
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: CDFN on March 21, 2011, 07:04:17 AM
Pokemon sure doesn't seem to be affected by this. Damn thing still sells really well in every region. I guess the monster collecting thing has universal appeal, something that most jrpgs just don't.
Like every entertainment industry, the videogame market is driven by trends but because of cultural differences these aren't necessarily the same in every region. That's pretty much all there is to it.
Same thing happens in music for example. It's like the metalheads making fun or even being condescending towards people who listen to pop and vice versa. Actually, Alisha's initial post reminded me of the weird looks I used to get as a teen from people who didn't like metal, especially from the metal = satanic crowd.

Personally I'm glad there's so much variety or else I would've gotten bored of this hobby years ago.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MeshGearFox on March 21, 2011, 11:31:33 AM
Nobody takes Game Informer seriously.

Nobody even buys magazines any more jesus christ this is 2007 bro-lady get IN the picture.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Yoda on March 21, 2011, 12:26:39 PM


its that group of online mutiplayer fps players that i see most of the hate come from. and because the gaming media *coughgameinformercough* wants to apease them they jump on the bandwagon.

Gameinformer reviewed and gave good scores to Radiant Historia, DQ6, Tactics Ogre, Ys: Oath... etc.


I personally find this conversation lame. At every gaming convention I see vids and pics of I see plenty of jrpg cosplay action, and sales seem to be decent at least for most new jrpgs released.

Who cares if outspoken CoD fans think jrpgs suck?
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MindCandy on March 21, 2011, 02:42:12 PM
GI love how the very title of this thread is a generalization, and when someone makes another generalization in a reply they get flamed.
My opinion is they aren't as fun as they used to be and I don't know why. Something just plain broke. 90% of the Jrpgs I've played reccently had great concepts,  but had some very nagging flaws as well. NIER is ugly. FF13 is a mindless tunnel run. Resonance of Fate was grindy. Magna Carta 2 was boring.
Can't put my finger on it, but mabe it's not a simple problem. Maybe it's something that really can't be pegged as a genre wide failure. Maybe it's just a stream of games that simply aren't up to the same quality we've come to expect from Japan. I keep coming back to JRPGs looking for that spark I used to feel playing those games, and while some of them are fun for a bit, the thrill is gone. I think the negetive view comes from this general discontent with games in the genre.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: supersonic on March 21, 2011, 02:49:17 PM
Or maybe you are burned out and should take a break from JRPGs or gaming in general. For me, JRPGs are as fun as they were 5 or 10 years ago.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: John on March 21, 2011, 03:49:07 PM
Eww! God of War!

This post (taken from the game journal) I think sums up a great deal of why many people get their favorite types of games shit on.  I've seen quite a few RPG fans who are completely apoplectic when someone suggests that they play something that's not an RPG.

I'd guess that more than a small portion of the fans that feel like they've been placed in the JRPG ghetto have said (to the people that they feel are making them outcasts) something that's hateful toward "mainstream" gaming, or whatever you'd like to call it.

I think that you're going to get uninformed statements back at you if you make them.  I don't care about God of War (or the aforementioned post about it), but it just made me think of this thread.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Vanguard on March 21, 2011, 03:54:19 PM
Honestly who the fuck cares? They're video games.

I don't play these things to climb any social ladder. I play them because they're fun.

Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Starmongoose on March 21, 2011, 04:06:12 PM
Yeah, this is a little bit like saying football is better than baseball or whatever. People are gonna play them and like them regardless, nothing you say is going to change it.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: John on March 21, 2011, 04:10:08 PM
I don't play these things to climb any social ladder. I play them because they're fun.

Bingo.  I'm all about playing nice and enjoying what I find fun.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: dyeager on March 21, 2011, 04:27:58 PM
Yeah, this is a little bit like saying football is better than baseball or whatever. People are gonna play them and like them regardless, nothing you say is going to change it.

BASEBALL IS BETTER THAN FOOTBALL GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

go phils
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MindCandy on March 21, 2011, 04:30:10 PM
Yeah, this is a little bit like saying football is better than baseball or whatever. People are gonna play them and like them regardless, nothing you say is going to change it.
If you said that, you'd be wrong.
I like all kinds of games, but I tend to hate on 3rd person button masher/ddr hybrids like God of war. I love Gears of War, but hate FPS games. Love platformers. Love Elder scrolls games but hate most other western RPGS.

Hell, I like what I like and hate what I hate, and frankly, I don't give a shit what's in style these days. It's going to change next month anyway. When I was a in HS FF7 was the shit, now it's not. Despite my displeasure with ff13 I did finish the game, I just didn't love it. I borderline hated it, but I was able to tough it out. Same with all the games I mentioned earlier. When ff7 was over though, I remember thinking damn, that's it? I want more! That was after like... 70 hours! I miss being hooked like that.

So far Radient Historia is getting me what I was looking for, we'll see if it sticks.

[Edit] dammit Dyeager beat me...
Well go Yanks anyway!
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Starmongoose on March 21, 2011, 04:32:33 PM
Yeah, this is a little bit like saying football is better than baseball or whatever. People are gonna play them and like them regardless, nothing you say is going to change it.
If you said that, you'd be wrong.
I like all kinds of games, but I tend to hate on 3rd person button masher/ddr hybrids like God of war. I love Gears of War, but hate FPS games. Love platformers. Love Elder scrolls games but hate most other western RPGS.
Hell, I like what I like and hate what I hate, and frankly, I don't give a shit what's in style these days. It's going to change next month anyway. When I was a in HS FF7 was the shit, now it's not. Despite my displeasure with ff13 I did finish the game, I just didn't love it. I borderline hated it, but I was able to tough it out. Same with all the games I mentioned earlier. When ff7 was over though, I remember thinking damn, that's it? I want more! That was after like... 70 hours! I miss being hooked like that.
So far Radient Historia is getting me what I was looking for, we'll see if it sticks.

I have no idea whether or not you just agreed with me or said I was wrong.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MindCandy on March 21, 2011, 04:34:21 PM
Yeah, this is a little bit like saying football is better than baseball or whatever. People are gonna play them and like them regardless, nothing you say is going to change it.
If you said that, you'd be wrong.
I like all kinds of games, but I tend to hate on 3rd person button masher/ddr hybrids like God of war. I love Gears of War, but hate FPS games. Love platformers. Love Elder scrolls games but hate most other western RPGS.
Hell, I like what I like and hate what I hate, and frankly, I don't give a shit what's in style these days. It's going to change next month anyway. When I was a in HS FF7 was the shit, now it's not. Despite my displeasure with ff13 I did finish the game, I just didn't love it. I borderline hated it, but I was able to tough it out. Same with all the games I mentioned earlier. When ff7 was over though, I remember thinking damn, that's it? I want more! That was after like... 70 hours! I miss being hooked like that.
So far Radient Historia is getting me what I was looking for, we'll see if it sticks.

I have no idea whether or not you just agreed with me or said I was wrong.
Yes
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Kevadu on March 21, 2011, 06:48:31 PM
I don't play these things to climb any social ladder. I play them because they're fun.

This is probably the most intelligent statement made in this thread.

BTW, I like JRPGs and God of War!  What's with all the God of War hate? ;)
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MindCandy on March 21, 2011, 09:26:35 PM
Opinion's a bitch like that.
Mongoose, disagree on baseball, agree on the rest.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Starmongoose on March 21, 2011, 09:29:17 PM
I've never even seen a game of baseball or football, what do I know?
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: kyuusei on March 21, 2011, 09:58:32 PM
I don't play these things to climb any social ladder. I play them because they're fun.

This is probably the most intelligent statement made in this thread.

BTW, I like JRPGs and God of War!  What's with all the God of War hate? ;)
I assume because it's gory, heh.

I like JRPGs, God of War, and FPSes. :-P
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Eusis on March 21, 2011, 10:10:08 PM
God of War's a little bland for me. I prefer Bayonetta or, for a more similar game, Lords of Shadow. I did like II more than I though.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Sagacious-T on March 21, 2011, 11:54:17 PM
Yeah, this is a little bit like saying football is better than baseball or whatever. People are gonna play them and like them regardless, nothing you say is going to change it.

BASEBALL IS BETTER THAN FOOTBALL GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

go phils

LMAO! Baseball is now the literal JRPG of the sports world.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Starmongoose on March 21, 2011, 11:55:32 PM
My simile has grown a mind of its own.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Lard on March 22, 2011, 03:04:44 AM

I've said it before; but I credit FF's constant success in the States part of the fact they diverted from the cartoon-y style that FF7 had and kept it real (which seems to work for audiences here).  

Nevertheless, numerous Japanese publishers enjoy a ton of success here too, no?

FF9 was cartoony. (Though it was a much better game than FF8. But hell, Legend of Dragoon would be a better game than FF8 if it didn't have such a terrible battle system)

I think the publishers that are having success now, like Atlus, XSeed and Level 5,are the ones that are bringing over interesting things that may be Japanese but are also things we haven't seen before. I think that's why stuff like the newer Persona games, Professor Layton, 999 and even stuff like Retro Game Challenge seems to get buzz.

Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Dice on March 22, 2011, 03:17:07 AM

I've said it before; but I credit FF's constant success in the States part of the fact they diverted from the cartoon-y style that FF7 had and kept it real (which seems to work for audiences here). 

Nevertheless, numerous Japanese publishers enjoy a ton of success here too, no?

FF9 was cartoony. (Though it was a much better game than FF8. But hell, Legend of Dragoon would be a better game than FF8 if it didn't have such a terrible battle system)

I think the publishers that are having success now are the ones like Atlus, XSeed and Level 5 that are bringing over interesting things that may be Japanese but is also stuff we haven't seen before. I think that's why stuff like the newer Persona games, Professor Layton, 999 and even stuff like Retro Game Challenge seems to get buzz.

Mileage varies in that point.  Besides, what are the sales figures on some of these games?  My point isn't trying to look at cult-value...  Atlus, Level5 and XSeed *does* make interesting games, but....
...and, wait a minute, in talking of visual aesthetics, I'd actually chalk-up Layton to French animated stylings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPdLrxxo4mg) way more than Japanese (which could be a point of appeal for non-J-ers).
FF9 still tried to retain semi-real elements that could be interpreted more "cartoony" than necessarily anime (you see the especially with Steiner and various NPCs - those who don't fit typcical "anime" conventions).  I think the only title in the FF series (main series anyhow) that was overtly anime was FF7 (before then, the graphics were too small to call them out as anything other than tiny-sprites, not "chibi-SD" ones; furthermore, anime exposure wasn't all that strong in NA by this point for anyone to care, no?).  FF8 and after seemed to have taken a more realistic approach that stuck-on well with the (and I hate using the word for it) "maturing" North American audience who stopped being taken in by the J-charm.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Themadcow on March 22, 2011, 05:42:15 AM
Development costs are the killer. Every new generation of console brings with it new demands on development costs to fulfil the promise of better graphics and sound. Unfortunately, good JRPG experiences have rarely depended on such things so they end up having to attach the significant development costs to a well known name in order to guarantee a certain amount of sales.

I guess that's why handhelds are the RPG format of choice - low graphics expectations allowing for more resource on gamplay and storytelling.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: PotRoast on March 22, 2011, 06:49:22 AM
...and, wait a minute, in talking of visual aesthetics, I'd actually chalk-up Layton to French animated stylings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPdLrxxo4mg) way more than Japanese (which could be a point of appeal for non-J-ers).

Which brings us back to whole ignorance thing. The visual style used for JRPGs is quite diverse. But you tell the right person it's from Japan and they poo poo it no matter which country's artistic style was most influential in its development.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MeshGearFox on March 22, 2011, 11:55:59 AM
Quote
I guess that's why handhelds are the RPG format of choice - low graphics expectations allowing for more resource on gamplay and storytelling.

Hi 1999 called they want their strawman back~

Serious refutation:

1. Unless you have a tiny studio art isn't handled by the 'gamplay' or storytelling dudes. No resource diversion there.

2. High-quality pixel art and high-quality 3D art don't really take different amount of 'work' or 'effort' inherently. Especially if the artists are actually good at what they are doing.

3. The DS is a perfectly capable piece of hardware and does not really have inherently lowered expectations about visual quality, whatever something so nebulous even means. I'm guessing development costs on the DS are cheaper since the hardware is simpler in other regards and isn't some multiprocessor clusterfuck that is impossible to program.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Dice on March 22, 2011, 12:04:18 PM
...and, wait a minute, in talking of visual aesthetics, I'd actually chalk-up Layton to French animated stylings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPdLrxxo4mg) way more than Japanese (which could be a point of appeal for non-J-ers).

Which brings us back to whole ignorance thing. The visual style used for JRPGs is quite diverse. But you tell the right person it's from Japan and they poo poo it no matter which country's artistic style was most influential in its development.

They can be.  I'm kinda deviating here...but...  Some games make a blatant effort to be something other than J (Layton), but I can't help but think how ...ubiquitous "anime" styles are in Japan - it seems if you're a cartoonist in that country, you ARE drawing anime's big eyes, full and colourful hairdos, and whatever else.  I personally find American cartoons more diverse in terms of style at times; even Japanese realism tends to look unquestionably anime -- in fact, have they ever made a cartoon that *wasn't* anime-esque? (as is, FF titles containing almost impossible looking humans at times, and Prof Layton titles squeezed some anime broads into their title's youthful females).

Then I stop and question -- is this all a mere matter of perspective?
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MindCandy on March 22, 2011, 12:35:16 PM
...and, wait a minute, in talking of visual aesthetics, I'd actually chalk-up Layton to French animated stylings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPdLrxxo4mg) way more than Japanese (which could be a point of appeal for non-J-ers).

Which brings us back to whole ignorance thing. The visual style used for JRPGs is quite diverse. But you tell the right person it's from Japan and they poo poo it no matter which country's artistic style was most influential in its development.

They can be.  I'm kinda deviating here...but...  Some games make a blatant effort to be something other than J (Layton), but I can't help but think how ...ubiquitous "anime" styles are in Japan - it seems if you're a cartoonist in that country, you ARE drawing anime's big eyes, full and colourful hairdos, and whatever else.  I personally find American cartoons more diverse in terms of style at times; even Japanese realism tends to look unquestionably anime -- in fact, have they ever made a cartoon that *wasn't* anime-esque? (as is, FF titles containing almost impossible looking humans at times, and Prof Layton titles squeezed some anime broads into their title's youthful females).

Then I stop and question -- is this all a mere matter of perspective?

Well look at the ff games, especially the difference between 7 and 8. Nobody can arfue that the costumes and world art weren't anime in nature, but I thought the characters in 8 sure looked much more realistic.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MeshGearFox on March 22, 2011, 01:40:07 PM
...and, wait a minute, in talking of visual aesthetics, I'd actually chalk-up Layton to French animated stylings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPdLrxxo4mg) way more than Japanese (which could be a point of appeal for non-J-ers).

Which brings us back to whole ignorance thing. The visual style used for JRPGs is quite diverse. But you tell the right person it's from Japan and they poo poo it no matter which country's artistic style was most influential in its development.

They can be.  I'm kinda deviating here...but...  Some games make a blatant effort to be something other than J (Layton), but I can't help but think how ...ubiquitous "anime" styles are in Japan - it seems if you're a cartoonist in that country, you ARE drawing anime's big eyes, full and colourful hairdos, and whatever else.  I personally find American cartoons more diverse in terms of style at times; even Japanese realism tends to look unquestionably anime -- in fact, have they ever made a cartoon that *wasn't* anime-esque? (as is, FF titles containing almost impossible looking humans at times, and Prof Layton titles squeezed some anime broads into their title's youthful females).

Then I stop and question -- is this all a mere matter of perspective?

Anime is sort of interesting in that a lot of the common features you see in it aren't really limited to anime. I don't know a lot about cartoons in general, but I think what you see in a lot of Western animation is like, heavily rooted in Chuck Jones and Walt Disney. Which wasn't that dissimilar from what you saw, IDK, from Osamu Tezuka (Lion King being a shitty ripoff of Kimba notwithstanding).

Although I probably would also raise the point that I think anime's just gotten really bad looking lately. I don't really watch a lot of it anymore thanks to my lack of cable, but it's like, yeah, there's really great looking stuff like Ghost in the Shell, but then you also get stuff like Full Metal Alchemist that's pretty generic looking (albeit not badly animated), or Naruto which is BARELY ANIMATED AT ALL apparently I mean seriously 50% of an episode will just be closeups of eyes shifting back and forth or dramatic pauses where nothing happens.

Also I think a lot of Westerners tend to call everything from Japan anime even if it isn't. Jack Layton was brought up as an example of being closer to French animation. Kaneko's art is... idk something between modernist and art deco. Legend of Mana and Romancing Song were pretty much based in like, Indo-European folk art. And Odin Sphere seems REALLY heavily inspired by Indonesian shadow puppetry. I've heard them all described as anime, though. There is an anime influence in a lot of JRPG art, but there's an anime influence on a lot of Western art as well. I wouldn't say that MOST JRPGs have a hardcore anime style in the same way that IDK Tales does.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Sagacious-T on March 22, 2011, 01:49:22 PM
Guys, Americans dont hate anime.
I've met the most ghetto ass dudes who love Dragonball Z
I don't know how much you were all picked on in high school for wearing naruto headbands but this isnt the reality of the world
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Annubis on March 22, 2011, 02:09:39 PM
Guys, Americans dont hate anime.
I've met the most ghetto ass dudes who love Dragonball Z
I don't know how much you were all picked on in high school for wearing naruto headbands but this isnt the reality of the world

but but but... even I make fun of narutards.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: MindCandy on March 22, 2011, 03:31:14 PM
Guys, Americans dont hate anime.
I've met the most ghetto ass dudes who love Dragonball Z
I don't know how much you were all picked on in high school for wearing naruto headbands but this isnt the reality of the world

but but but... even I make fun of narutards.
Yeah, I love me some animme too, but if you ran around with a dragonball shirt or Naruto headband i'd make fun of you too.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Starmongoose on March 22, 2011, 04:01:19 PM
Well that's...dumb.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Annubis on March 22, 2011, 04:14:07 PM
The difference between a fan of Naruto and a Narutard is akin to the difference between admiration and obsession.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Sagacious-T on March 22, 2011, 05:03:13 PM
You're all hypocrites
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Dice on March 22, 2011, 05:16:09 PM
The difference between a fan of Naruto and a Narutard is akin to the difference between admiration and obsession.

I have "loved" things... like really love them.  But never to the weird point it gets to with Narutards and Twilighters and all that....
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Lard on March 22, 2011, 07:27:38 PM

Mileage varies in that point.  Besides, what are the sales figures on some of these games?  My point isn't trying to look at cult-value...  Atlus, Level5 and XSeed *does* make interesting games, but....
...and, wait a minute, in talking of visual aesthetics, I'd actually chalk-up Layton to French animated stylings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPdLrxxo4mg) way more than Japanese (which could be a point of appeal for non-J-ers).
FF9 still tried to retain semi-real elements that could be interpreted more "cartoony" than necessarily anime (you see the especially with Steiner and various NPCs - those who don't fit typcical "anime" conventions). 

I wasn't looking at cultishness exactly. I guess I was making the same point as you using different examples, in that people look at the cutesy, "generic" jrpgs and roll their eyes, but will look at other Japanese stuff that branches out or seems a bit different. I think 999 is probably the example to that observation - it succeeded despite looking very cutesy in the character design.
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Aeolus on March 23, 2011, 01:56:02 AM

I've said it before; but I credit FF's constant success in the States part of the fact they diverted from the cartoon-y style that FF7 had and kept it real (which seems to work for audiences here).  

Nevertheless, numerous Japanese publishers enjoy a ton of success here too, no?

FF9 was cartoony. (Though it was a much better game than FF8. But hell, Legend of Dragoon would be a better game than FF8 if it didn't have such a terrible battle system)

I think the publishers that are having success now, like Atlus, XSeed and Level 5,are the ones that are bringing over interesting things that may be Japanese but are also things we haven't seen before. I think that's why stuff like the newer Persona games, Professor Layton, 999 and even stuff like Retro Game Challenge seems to get buzz.



And yet nobody bought Retro Gaming Challenge thus stranding the sequel and the TV series they're based on in Japan. ;_;
Title: Re: jrpg hate in america.
Post by: Sagacious-T on March 23, 2011, 02:28:03 AM

I've said it before; but I credit FF's constant success in the States part of the fact they diverted from the cartoon-y style that FF7 had and kept it real (which seems to work for audiences here).  

Nevertheless, numerous Japanese publishers enjoy a ton of success here too, no?

FF9 was cartoony. (Though it was a much better game than FF8. But hell, Legend of Dragoon would be a better game than FF8 if it didn't have such a terrible battle system)

I think the publishers that are having success now, like Atlus, XSeed and Level 5,are the ones that are bringing over interesting things that may be Japanese but are also things we haven't seen before. I think that's why stuff like the newer Persona games, Professor Layton, 999 and even stuff like Retro Game Challenge seems to get buzz.



And yet nobody bought Retro Gaming Challenge thus stranding the sequel and the TV series they're based on in Japan. ;_;

I bought it man fuck the haters