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16  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread on: April 24, 2015, 12:30:57 PM
All right, I'll bite.

Yes, Kefka was a henchman who elevated himself into the game's primary antagonist. Considering how often that actually occurs in JRPGs both then and now, its still a noteworthy feat. As for Gestahl's ignorance of the magic-field? That's mostly due to the fact that most of his experience with magic came from the research done on Magi-tek, whereas Kefka by this point had already figured out how Magicite worked and applied that knowledge to the Warring Triad statues.

That said, yeah. The whole Statues thing kinda comes out of nowhere and isn't really all that well explained past the Crescent Island expedition which does lay down the basic groundwork of the Statues and their purpose and role within the War of the Magi, but not about purposefully placing oneself into said Balance in order to partake in and absorb their magic field. Then again, it seems like something that very few would be crazy enough to even attempt, given the possible ramifications of disrupting the balance (of course Kefka certainly fits that bill; and look what happened, a large quantity of magical energy spilled over and caused a chain reaction that shattered continents and rearranged the face of the world).

As for Kefka getting stabbed during the Floating Continent sequence? First off, we don't even know the extent of the blow he took given that we're at most looking at a pair of sprites bump each other with visual and audio effects supporting the thesis that he was stabbed. He could've been stabbed in the shoulder for all we know (admittedly we do know that it had to be somewhere he could see since he does observe the blood flowing from his wound, but that's the full extent of it). Second, Shadow's efforts to pin Kefka were more or less for the sake of giving the party time to escape as the Floating Continent was the first thing to start falling apart (being suspended in the air and all) and the last thing they needed was Kefka going on a rampage and blasting the ground out from underneath the party (after all, theoretically speaking, the player could've brought Sabin, Gau and Terra to the fight, but they could've just as easily brought a party of Strago, Relm and Mog, none of whom are really capable of making any sort of dramatic escape, nevermind that the party at this point will always be saddled with Celes, who isn't exactly known for performing super human feats of agility). So yeah, leaving a goddamn Ninja behind to cover your tails isn't the worst idea the party's ever had. As for why Shadow couldn't have just shiv'd Kefka? Considering the luck Gestahl had at nuking him and getting Light of Judgemented in return, its possible that Shadow just couldn't deal enough HP worth of damage with the equipment at his disposal. Especially considering that each of the Warring Triad itself a major endgame boss fight, soloing all four at once would've been an impossible task. (I mean, not even a full party can deal with the Guardian let alone a guy who hasn't seen much action throughout the World of Balance, and that's just one endgame boss). Honestly, my biggest problem with the scene is Kefka waiting for the party to show up before torching Gestahl and triggering the world altering cataclysm (although I suppose that's largely due to trying to get Celes to actively betray the party for dramatic effect).

As for the issue with Terra? See my previous post. The only reason why she's considered the main character is largely due to the game opening and ending with her and the fact that her role in the story was the focus for about half of the game. I generally consider her performance/prerogative within the game's plot to be shared with Celes as they essentially are the same character (I mean they don't really share any screentime or availability together until Terra's recruitment within the World of Ruin where all bets are off; excepting the Battle of Narshe, less than a handful of scenes during the Imperial Dinner/Crescent Island bit and maybe the Floating Continent if, and only if, you brought Terra along). And in all honesty, Terra being separate from Celes is more of a good thing than a bad thing. For one, had they been the same character outright, then Locke would've stealth protagonist'd all up in this shit due to Celes' character development revolving largely around him to the extent of him being her entire driving force. Terra doesn't have that relationship (getting paired off with Leo) and basically treats him like the optional character that he turns into during the World of Ruin. For another, its honestly the better choice to not pile conflicting character defining traits onto a single character. Terra was a mysterious waif while Celes was the one with a reputation to live down, and though the developers tried to put it all on one character (Terra's 50 soldier per minute killcount is the furthest they go with it until her Esper Berserker Rage episode then both are largely dropped for Celes' torching of Miranda and mislaid allegiances).
17  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Star Ocean 5 on: April 24, 2015, 02:52:47 AM
Don't you mean Tiz? Ringabel pretty much went to where he was heading (which was rediscovering his true identity and dealing with the aftermath), even if it wasn't the biggest or most flashy sequence of events. Tiz was just kinda there until he fell apart at the end.


And worst male characters?

I know I keep bringing the dipshit up, but Leonard from White Knight Chronicles could sweep the award. He basically makes Metroid: Other M's Samus Aran look god damn competent, professional, and down right empowered by comparison.

I mean, disregarding just how many times a guy armed with a giant magical robot armor with powers and abilities far beyond that of mortal men can let the same goddamn princess get kidnapped right out from in front of him, he's so incapable that he can turn a hostage situation/macguffin surrender situation that fails spectacularly in his favor still manages to get both the hostage killed and the princess kidnapped yet again, and so oblivious that he drags his sorry ass off a plot bench he's been forced on for over half a game just to get stomped by an endgame boss he's horribly underleveled and underequipped for due to being stuck on a plot bench for half a game, and then he sets off the ancient prophecy of doom during the final showdown by being there and activating his giant magical robot armor which causes him to get possessed by the duology's final boss who absorbs everybody's goddamn giant magical robot armors (save for the Player made Avatar Character's provided you got him/her one by running a series of really annoying sidequests; btw, this is the only time in the entire duology proper that the Player made Avatar Character could be considered relevant to the proceedings and not just as a scenery prop/replacement PC filler/multiplayer mule) and your party, sans the main character, his titular giant magical robot armor and all the other giant magical robot armors, must now fight the series big bad, on foot, with whatever you had lying around, no legendaries, no ultimate spells and maybe a single giant magical robot armor knockoff (if you paid real money on all the DLC needed to make it not suck, or wasted 1500 hours grinding on a now non-existent online multiplayer component).

And again, this isn't even considering all the mid-season upgrades that he gets that go completely to waste on him, all the other people he gets killed via collateral damage, the fact that he's always the last member of the party to get what's going on, or even the reason why he's on this adventure to begin with. Then again, this is pretty much entirely the director's/writing team's fault for slamming out such a cliche-ridden trope-fest to begin with.
18  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread on: April 24, 2015, 01:48:39 AM
As a side note, funnily enough Terra is just as bad as Vaan in the 'contributes nothing to the main plot' yet no one ever mentions this.

In all honesty, I probably should've picked a better example like FFVI. That game, while ostentatiously granting Terra the role of MC (for the ending credits and everything thereafter), didn't really grant it to her alone but also Celes and Locke, both of whom took control of the plot at certain points. Granted, Terra was more a demonstration on what would happen if the mysterious waif female lead was actually the MC for once instead of just another damsel in distress, but she still got distressed on more than one occasion and had to leave the party for a goodly chunk of the first half and was wholly optional for the second. Vaan at least, never had to leave the party (no matter how much we'd rather have Fran or Ashe as the party leader in cities and villages).

Though on that note, Cloud also left the party for a brief stretch, leaving Cid (and Tifa I guess) to pilot the party for a while, but that's closer to a brief reprieve compared to Terra's absence, especially since getting him back in your party was plot mandatory (compared to Terra's "I must go now for the ending sequence needs me.").

You were saying?


Imma let you finish, but Warrior of Light is the most story irrelevant FF character ever.

Who the hell plays a team with a Warrior in it? Its 4 White Mages all the way (to White Wizards).


Admittedly I'm guilty of not playing the original two. I had the FF Origins disk in High School but really just couldn't get into either. Maybe I should at least give the first one a go someday. I hear 2's just pretty much abusing the stat system for an hour then making cake of the rest of the experience.

Biggest mistake you can make with FF2 is grinding your HP up. Late game and onward, undead enemies start showing up in droves and their attacks always drain health based upon a 1/16th percentage of your total health per Hit (and this is on the old NES style Hits based system where higher speed means more Hits per attack), and between that and the fact that Cure Magic have a hard time healing more than 1500 HP per cast at level 13-ish, which itself is probably the highest level you can expect your Cure Magic to reach by the Final Boss Fight with some grinding, you really can't have your characters keep up with that kind of damage (especially since Level 13 magic costs 13 MP per cast, its not particularly economical to go around burning MP when fighting 6 or 8 undead enemies throwing out 1000s of HP of damage per individual undead enemy's attack).

What you should do is focus on having your designated Tank be the only one in the front row, and have him/her dual wield Shields or a Shield and a Dagger or something that boosts Agility, because Evade is what you want since it cuts down on the number of Hits per attack that connect. Give your other two characters either a Bow or make them your designated Black Magic user, and make sure the Tank gets Blink cast on him/her a lot.
19  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Langrisser: Reincarnation coming Stateside? on: April 23, 2015, 07:06:29 PM
http://www.siliconera.com/2015/04/23/langrisser-composer-is-stoked-to-be-back-hopes-to-do-more-for-the-series/

Well artist aside, they at least got the composer back.
20  The Rest / General Discussions / Re: Misc. Gaming News Topic on: April 23, 2015, 01:22:50 PM
Whazzazawa?! Summon Night 5? That's interesting. Always wanted to play a main game in that series, so I'm greatly looking forward to that. As for Class of Heroes 3, I'm not holding my breath. I find it hard to imagine playing a game like that without a second screen map these days, least of all on the PSP where I don't have much room for a mini-map...

Agreed. Class of Heroes 3 is still at least one game behind where the series currently is in Japan and that's if you don't consider the fact that Dungeon Crawlers don't exactly have the kind of shelf-life that other RPG sub-genres do.
21  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread on: April 23, 2015, 01:19:11 PM
I enjoyed 12 as well. Better to be ambitious and flawed than to be banal, I say.

Also I'm probably one of like 4 people on this board who played XI for the better part of a decade so that probably influences that too. Didn't mind the combat at all.

Hey now, just because I hate certain parts of FFXII doesn't mean that I hate the whole thing. I still think the Gambit System should be used in more RPGs, the exploration was pretty cool at points (even if ultimately for the sake of Espers and Marks), the plot itself was pretty ambitious (if not necessarily concerning your party for any great length) and as far as stealth protagonists go, Ashe is one of the least obnoxious.


I never played White Knight Chronicles (and probably never will), so I'll have to concede that one to you, Aeolus.

And even with all of its glaring flaws, FFXII still makes it into my top 5 main line Final Fantasy titles.  I could even make a case for it being in my top 3 (behind VI and IX, of course) on account of it holding up much better than VII when replayed years later.

In all honesty, I probably should've picked a better example like FFVI. That game, while ostentatiously granting Terra the role of MC (for the ending credits and everything thereafter), didn't really grant it to her alone but also Celes and Locke, both of whom took control of the plot at certain points. Granted, Terra was more a demonstration on what would happen if the mysterious waif female lead was actually the MC for once instead of just another damsel in distress, but she still got distressed on more than one occasion and had to leave the party for a goodly chunk of the first half and was wholly optional for the second. Vaan at least, never had to leave the party (no matter how much we'd rather have Fran or Ashe as the party leader in cities and villages).

Though on that note, Cloud also left the party for a brief stretch, leaving Cid (and Tifa I guess) to pilot the party for a while, but that's closer to a brief reprieve compared to Terra's absence, especially since getting him back in your party was plot mandatory (compared to Terra's "I must go now for the ending sequence needs me.").
22  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Xenoblade Chronicles X on: April 23, 2015, 12:33:46 PM


My thoughts exactly. We're probably either going to start hearing about a possible release window (if not a date and time) or at least some English voicework.


And while I'm here: http://www.siliconera.com/2015/04/23/look-xenoblade-chronicles-x-scorching-continent-black-steel/

A few more pics from the main site. This time featuring the Blacksteel continent.
23  The Rest / General Discussions / Re: Misc. Gaming News Topic on: April 23, 2015, 02:15:48 AM
http://gematsu.com/2015/04/monkeypaw-gaijinworks-tease-new-psp-rpg-localizations

So Monkey Paw has decided to localize a fucking PSP game. Chances are that it'll be through PSN only (which I thought had discontinued its PSP support?) so yeah, that's a thing.

Oh yeah, and Gaijinworks is involved (and knowing them, were probably the masterminds to this most brilliant of ideas on how to waste time, effort and money).


Edit: http://www.siliconera.com/2015/04/23/summon-night-5-class-heroes-3-coming-west/

Summon Night 5 and Class of Heroes 3. The first mainline Summon Night game to come to the west and a game that Gaijinworks should've localized to begin with instead of fucking Class of Heroes 2.

Well, at least they didn't bother to localize any of Imageepoch's or Level 5's crap.
24  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread on: April 22, 2015, 09:32:20 PM
FFXII in 5 easy steps:
1) get quickening as fast as possible (almost at the expense of everything else)
2) Do hunts LOTS OF HUNTS (possibly ALL the hunts if you can stomach the never ending Yiazmat fight) as soon as they become available you're fairly certain you're prepared for it. 
3) pick a core group and stick with them as early in the game as possible (even Penelo is useful once she's gloriously over leveled). 
4) Do NOT ignore the gambit system.  People who do this are insane and irritate me almost as much as all the people who complain about FFXIII's paradigm shift system yet never bothered to use it correctly (and instead just tried to enter in commands manually and wound up dying 100's of time because they were too slow)
5) I still have no idea how I ended up dumping 96 hours into a game with so little plot/an almost pointless antagonist/the literal worst main character in major RPG history.


edit: I mostly ignored espers until I found out about how much they directly connect to the story in FF Tactics  .I'm pretty sure their existence in XII is proof that, even though the technology is far more advanced, that game took place many years before Tactics (WHEN DO WE GET TO FIND OUT ABOUT WHAT CAUSED THE CATACLYSM??).  So then I had to go back through and get most of them right before the final dungeon.


Well if you count the Lunar series as a whole as a major RPG series, then no, Vaan is by far and away not the worst JRPG protagonist in a major RPG.

Then again, even if we ignore Lunar Dragon Song, we still have some of the Grandia games (namely 3, though 1's Justin is pretty boring/lame), Wild ARMs 5, Xenosaga 3 (goddammit Shion), White Knight Chronicles (though this is debatable as these games did not turn out to be a major RPG series; thankfully), Star Ocean 4 (the name Edge Maverick was the only good thing about that character) and possibly Star Ocean 3 (Fayt doesn't really win any awards for exceeding competence, even when armed with bullshit plot lasers out of fucking nowhere) among others (depending on what you define 'major RPG series' as) who rank (and stank) worse than Vaan could've hoped to.

After all, while one can argue that Vaan shouldn't have been made in the first place, outside of some occasional derpery, he really didn't do all that much to hijack the plot or hog the spotlight, at the very least (then again, he didn't exactly drive the plot past the start either, almost like the devs wrote him as a goddamn Stealth Protagonist who forgot that he's already the Main Character, and instead turned around and had him abandon the plot's driving wheel, which Ashe eventually stepped in and took over, because what would Star Wars do when Luke and Han weren't driving the plot).

At least Justin actually has a purpose the entire game (explore new parts of the world and then save it) and Yuki is basically Justin except with airplanes.  Both of those two are bottomless pits of good guy pluck and resolve.  Neither (pretty decent) game could really go anywhere without them.  If FFXII killed off Vaan after the first 10 hours and just made Balthier the new protagonist it wouldn't have made much of a difference.  He is the 'worst' protagonist because, in a game that lacks many compelling characters, he is about the 4th or 5th most important.

Being nearly irrelevant in YOUR OWN GAME trumps being stupid or annoying in a game you are still central to the plot of.

edit: now that I think about it, killing off a protagonist and then replacing them with a new one part way through sounds like a great idea.  If placed in the right game, and if done correctly (and kept sufficiently under wraps ) that could turn into a really compelling narrative.

I've always felt that a lot of Justin's and Yuki's accomplishments just kinda fell into their respective laps. Like sure, they went on an adventure, much like a 5 year old goes on an adventure across their neighborhood.

Well anyways, by that criteria, that knocks out Grandia, Xenosaga and Star Ocean (and as loathed as I am to admit it, but also Lunar: Dragon Song; seriously, the only people more incompetent than your MC is the rest of your goddamn party; though they themselves were still more competent the actual makers of the piece of shit that is Lunar: Dragon Song), but you still haven't accounted for White Knight Chronicles (or how Leonard was such an incompetent dipshit that he got benched for the majority of the sequel; given how actively detrimental he was in the first game and how stock cliche driven the duology was, the guy was could've been replaced by the player's Avatar and nothing of value would've been lost the games would've been the better for it). Vaan is still better than that guy.
25  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread on: April 22, 2015, 05:28:05 PM
FFXII in 5 easy steps:
1) get quickening as fast as possible (almost at the expense of everything else)
2) Do hunts LOTS OF HUNTS (possibly ALL the hunts if you can stomach the never ending Yiazmat fight) as soon as they become available you're fairly certain you're prepared for it. 
3) pick a core group and stick with them as early in the game as possible (even Penelo is useful once she's gloriously over leveled). 
4) Do NOT ignore the gambit system.  People who do this are insane and irritate me almost as much as all the people who complain about FFXIII's paradigm shift system yet never bothered to use it correctly (and instead just tried to enter in commands manually and wound up dying 100's of time because they were too slow)
5) I still have no idea how I ended up dumping 96 hours into a game with so little plot/an almost pointless antagonist/the literal worst main character in major RPG history.


edit: I mostly ignored espers until I found out about how much they directly connect to the story in FF Tactics  .I'm pretty sure their existence in XII is proof that, even though the technology is far more advanced, that game took place many years before Tactics (WHEN DO WE GET TO FIND OUT ABOUT WHAT CAUSED THE CATACLYSM??).  So then I had to go back through and get most of them right before the final dungeon.


Well if you count the Lunar series as a whole as a major RPG series, then no, Vaan is by far and away not the worst JRPG protagonist in a major RPG.

Then again, even if we ignore Lunar Dragon Song, we still have some of the Grandia games (namely 3, though 1's Justin is pretty boring/lame), Wild ARMs 5, Xenosaga 3 (goddammit Shion), White Knight Chronicles (though this is debatable as these games did not turn out to be a major RPG series; thankfully), Star Ocean 4 (the name Edge Maverick was the only good thing about that character) and possibly Star Ocean 3 (Fayt doesn't really win any awards for exceeding competence, even when armed with bullshit plot lasers out of fucking nowhere) among others (depending on what you define 'major RPG series' as) who rank (and stank) worse than Vaan could've hoped to.

After all, while one can argue that Vaan shouldn't have been made in the first place, outside of some occasional derpery, he really didn't do all that much to hijack the plot or hog the spotlight, at the very least (then again, he didn't exactly drive the plot past the start either, almost like the devs wrote him as a goddamn Stealth Protagonist who forgot that he's already the Main Character, and instead turned around and had him abandon the plot's driving wheel, which Ashe eventually stepped in and took over, because what would Star Wars do when Luke and Han weren't driving the plot).
26  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread on: April 22, 2015, 03:46:05 PM
Also, High Arcanas can only be stolen from unique monster hunts and the quantity needed to craft the best gear is almost equal to the number of steal-able ones.
Of course, the odd of stealing an High Arcana is very low and even worst, the High Arcanas are often the RARE steal. This mean that if you steal the NORMAL steal (often an Arcana) you have to restart the battle.
The odds of a rare steal are 1-5% usually but they can be boosted by chaining enemies before the encounter. Thus, you end up having to chain 100s of enemies, try the boss, get the normal steal, reset, chain 100s of enemies, try the boss, fail again, reset, ad nauseum.

And yes, the best weapons are both 2-handed swords (Tournesol and Excalibur). After that all the other weapons are kinda far enough behind that it doesn't really matter what you put on the 3rd character... and by that I mean you don't care if you put the gun, ninja sword, katana or spear... because all the best ones of each of the other weapon types suck really bad.

The Masamune can be really good if paired with the Genji Glove for maximum attack chains (bonus points for getting one from a hunt), and the Zodiac Spear is at least really powerful if you can get it, but it isn't worth reseting the game over if you don't. But yeah, the rest of the weapons aren't really good enough to warrant having the best in them. What you really want on your weapons are added effects like Deathbringer's insta-KO or elemental damage.

For Armor, you want shit that gives good stat boosts for what you're trying to do (Str for damage dealers, Spd or Mag for everyone else) since that's where 90% of your build's stat specialization are coming from.


That said, an addendum to my previous post. You can save yourself the effort of having to track down a few rare items if you hold off on buying a Bazaar item until you've unlocked all the items that require that particular material (for instance, the Masamune and the Tournesol both require Gemsteel as a material component; if you hold off on buying the Masamune until you acquire 3x Empyhreal Souls and 3x Serpentariuses, you will only need 3x Gemsteel instead of 5x.
27  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread on: April 22, 2015, 01:49:42 PM
Dear lord I was wondering why I didn't give FF12 another chance, and that kinda sealed the deal....  That and needing a goddamn license to wear a hat. >:(
DAMN YOU FICTIONAL GOVERNMENT....DAAAAAAMMMMN YOOOOOOOOUUU

The Licenses weren't so bad if you A) weren't looking for specific character builds and B) knew to go after Traits and Quickenings ASAP, since those actually gave you permanent boosts, and gear was so fucking expensive/hard to come by that after a while you bought the license once you got the gear rather than the other way around (and the Golden Armlet made getting JP easy enough to be able to buy whatever you needed once you maxed out the Traits).
28  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread on: April 22, 2015, 01:08:42 PM
Reminds me of the rare item spawn rate in FF12 that was like 0.5% or something. Just maddeningly terrible game design.

That's after you build up a kill combo of 256! God was that a terrible design decision!

Was it? I don't even remember that. I just remember spending days getting the Tournesol (I think was called. The most powerful sword) by having to repeatedly open chests in various locations.

FFXII was loaded with terrible design decisions when it came to loot/equipment. You had things like:

- The Zodiac Spear, which you could find in a chest late in the game, 'IF' you didn't open very specific and very unmarked chests throughout the game (you might as well have not bothered to open any of them since most were filled with crap anyways).
- The Diamond Armlet, with its very description stating to wear this to improve the quality of loot found in chests, except in the case of the chests in the ostentatiously final dungeon where wearing said accessory guarantees garbage. This is never mentioned in game.
- The above with the knife, and so many other stealables from 'this one rare enemy you only get one shot at fighting'.
- The Bazaar, where you sell off enemy drops to make certain loot available for purchase. Among these are rare items like High Arcana that are required for really rare weapons and armor, but can also be used to make an Elixir or a Megaelixir which aren't nearly as useful, among other items. And you don't know what a recipe requires until you've completed it.
- The Genji Equipment, which are all stolen from Gilgamesh. He's the only enemy in the game whom you can steal multiple items from during the same fight (when you lower his HP beyond a certain threshold, a cutscene will play and his stealable loot table changes). Knowing this during the first fight with Gilgamesh is the only way to get the Genji Glove, by far the best accessory in the game.
- The Chests in the final dungeon have only a certain percentage of even appearing to begin with. Some of which are really hard and time consuming to get to. They themselves only have a very small chance of containing anything of value.

Also why did the two plot swords you get have to be almost total garbage when you get your first one (and the second isn't any better)?
29  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Xenoblade Chronicles X on: April 22, 2015, 11:59:28 AM
http://gematsu.com/2015/04/xenoblade-chronicles-x-story-trailer

New story trailer. Looks like the body count will be high for this one (no idea if this includes PCs or not).

Amaze.  
Though I think my only real complaint has popped in whatever the fuck this is (I mean, I guess in a massive fantasy world the creativity well dries up at some point????), but I do like how deliciously off-putting she is:


It seems that a large number of antagonists in this enemy force seem to be lead by females. Like you have the head tentacle mecha riding chick, the gold breastplated chick seen above, a masked ninja looking alien chick and possibly that silver haired purple eyed human female whom I thought was playable earlier. Meanwhile the head alien sounds very dudeular and there's also a red lion looking dude cutting down humans along with ninja chick.

Perhaps we're looking at The Elements mk II. I will love this game forever if their mecha can form up to form Dolltron or something.
30  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Xenoblade Chronicles X on: April 21, 2015, 10:54:56 PM
http://gematsu.com/2015/04/xenoblade-chronicles-x-story-trailer

New story trailer. Looks like the body count will be high for this one (no idea if this includes PCs or not).
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