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Next Quiz Date: January 11, 2014
Subject: 999 (Nintendo DS)
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7426  Media / Single-Player RPGs / "Countdown Site" = Chrono Trigger DS? remake, new on: July 15, 2008, 10:14:07 PM
FFIVA is like, 25 dollars used, around thesein here parts.
7427  Media / Single-Player RPGs / "Countdown Site" = Chrono Trigger DS? remake, new on: July 15, 2008, 09:44:08 PM
I wonder if some of the things in the chrono games that are considered plotholes (as in, stuff that's not explained. Not blatant internal inconsistencies like Marle dissappearing in that 600 plot arc)  were actually Kato and/or the other writers intentionally leaving stuff up to interpretation for the players.

I'm reading some translation of the Ultimania guide on gamefaqs and it's not... it's a bit akward, translation wise, but assuming it's close enough... Well, basically, with both games it's sort of annoying because there's stuff I THINK they're doing, storywise, but I'm not sure if I'm just reading too far into it or reading it wrong altogether.

I also get the impression that Kato's writing style involves writing the basic plot through, going back and looking for unintentional connections and meanings, and then writing those into it. Which seems like how the gurus of time work. *BALLS*.
7428  Media / Single-Player RPGs / RPGs Only You've Played. on: July 15, 2008, 09:33:53 PM
King's Quest is exceptionally well known >:| Also KQ6 had fairly logical puzzles. By Roberta standards.

KQ7 had stupid, stupid "Click everything on everything" puzzles. There's not way to logically solve these things since you just have a general "USE" command. And while this was also the case with, say, Curse of Monkey Island, that game would give you some sort of clue as to what use would do in that context. with KQ7, you can't really logic out that using a rope on a rock will tie it between two rocks, and thus trip a road runner.
7429  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Stupid RPG conventions/cliches you can't get past. on: July 15, 2008, 07:09:00 PM
This is easily one of the more ridiculous statements I've seen.

Bull. I've been posting here for *years*.
7430  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Stupid RPG conventions/cliches you can't get past. on: July 15, 2008, 05:31:19 PM
No, Shin Megami Tensei 3 isn't the most story-centric game ever

It's not that SMT3 wasn't story centric. It's just that it was really subtle and placed a big emphasis on things like atmosphere and non-textual storytelling elements and implying things from context.

Also, the last couple of BoF games were really story-centric. The first ones were too but the stories were translated so poorly that they didn't make any sense.

I'm also not really sure how you could say Twilight Princess didn't have a story, either, unless you have a really odd definition of "story."

In any case, story being used to move the gameplay along sounds much better than gameplay being used as an excuse to move the story along. although IDEALLY I don't think there should be any real seperation between gameplay and story, if that makes any sense, but that's frequently difficult to do and, mechanics depending, potentially Not Very Worth It At All.

Also, FF games could work with a silent main. See, in every FF there's another party member that doesn't ever get any damn lines ever. Like Quistis. Or Khimari. Or Setzer.

Anyway, I dunno if I'd consider backstory the biggest part of character development. Also I guess in a strictly semantic sense, character development is limited to dnyamic characters, and how they changet throughout the course of the story, so backstory doesn't matter a whole lot at all. Personally though, I guess I'm more interested in a character's personality getting fleshed out than their personal history.
7431  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Stupid RPG conventions/cliches you can't get past. on: July 13, 2008, 11:17:09 PM
That sometimes gets my goat in some graphic adventures when the game will only continue if you create its intended solution to a puzzle when, in fact, there exist many potential solutions.

This is why I don't really like those games anymore. You get into really huge problems when the intended solution doesn't make that much sense. I mean, the puzzle and how you play through it might make sense, but there's no real logic behind it. Again, The Longest Journey !@#!%!%.

Ideally you should show the player what they want to get, then let them figure out how to get it. Most graphical adventures give the player the puzzle before the goal, so it's a bit aimless.

Text adventures (and a few graphical adventures that try to mimic them) work differently in that you're typing in verbs and there's no such thing as a generic use command, therefor more actions tend to have consequences.

This is also why I find Myst games to have entirely logical puzzles. You solve them with experimentation and observation and not with trying to guess whether or not using the flute with the gazebo will lead to an action that made sense to the developers or not.


When I was talking about non-linear above, though, I meant more in the sense of the original Dragon Quest. I guess what I'm saying is that linear or non-linear are fine for me. I just don't like games that constantly *force* you in one particular direction and freak out if you try to deviate a little bit.
7432  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Stupid RPG conventions/cliches you can't get past. on: July 13, 2008, 09:02:39 PM
You don't really NEED told what to do in a nonlinear RPG.  Just go somewhere, see if there's anything to do, if there is, do it, and if not, go somewhere else. Most, however, usually give you some sort of goal (Fallout: Find the water chip. M&M7: Make Harmondale not be suck. Ultima 6: Clear the shrines of Gargoyles.) and it's up to you to figure out how to do that.  

In old DOS RPGs that are nonlinear, it's actually pretty common that you can do any quest in any order, although they all point towards the end goal in some small way (as per Fallout and Ultima) or you have what's essentially a linear storyline, but you can GO anywhere you want and do all sorts of extra sidequests (Ultima 7). Might and Magic 4 and 5 come to mind as being completely nonlinear in a sense. There really isn't any sort of main quest progression there.

(Notable exceptions: SaGa Frontier, which is really damn vague about what to do with Robo and Lute, and the Romancing SaGa remake, which has a wonky quest scheduler so there might not be obvious quests at any given time).
7433  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Stupid RPG conventions/cliches you can't get past. on: July 13, 2008, 01:06:30 PM
That's the main reason I like nonlinear (or rather, multilinear/pseudolinear) RPGs more. You can still have a more or less entirely linear plotline, but give the player options how to deal with individual situations -- essentially what Fallout did, for instance. And then when it comes to the ending, you essentially get an eight part ending, and each part can either have a good or bad outcome depending on what you did (or for the really minor stuff, you don't really need to account for it in the ending, I guess).

I need to write up that blog article on why ultima 6 really impressed me because it sort of would explain what I'm talking about better, assuming I don't completely !@#$% it up.
7434  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Stupid RPG conventions/cliches you can't get past. on: July 13, 2008, 12:53:41 PM
- Randomly generated dungeons.

These can work. Most JRPGs don't actually have randomly generated dungeons though, but pseudo-random ones pieced together from large chunks. If you look at some PC games though, like Dwarf Fortress, which has a random world generator that does some really lovely terrain, with stuff like ocean spray and waves and realistic biome placement (All in ASCII no less), or Nethack, which has so much stuff that can be placed, and several different dungeon style paradigms, it DOES work and actually gives you genuinely different things each time you play.
7435  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Stupid RPG conventions/cliches you can't get past. on: July 13, 2008, 03:56:44 AM
Yes, but lifeless and obsessive 15 year olds tend to BUY a lot of this stuff.
7436  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Stupid RPG conventions/cliches you can't get past. on: July 13, 2008, 01:09:50 AM
Save points do annoy me, btw. And these aren't a JRPG original. Only being able to save at an inn comes from PC RPGs. You can't save in-dungeon in Wizardry, and the original might and magic games did it with an in. Ultima let you save anywhere as far as I know (!@#% the original three games. Those were stupid).

Two biggest offenders for me, though? The original Persona game (which I absolutely love because I played it on an emulator and used save states, so !@#% you atlus :V) and Marathon. Marathon, being the classic Mac FPS. FPS. Save points in an FPS are really stupid for reasons that should probably be obvious.

Actually I could say Operation flashpoint is an even bigger offender, but that's more of a matter of no in-mission saves.
7437  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Stupid RPG conventions/cliches you can't get past. on: July 13, 2008, 12:20:08 AM
My original point in making this topic was just to vent about something extremely minor that was still bugging the hell out of me because I'm autistic or something, actually.

Only a few instances of JRPGs -- and I say JRPGs since western RPGs with silent protagonists generally give you a lot of dialogue options or ways to act and you're developing your protags personality on your own, so there's actually a reason for it there. Or I guess the SMT games (for the most part. I didn't think this worked in the first two personas much) but in regards to Persona 3, if your dude had a set personality, choosing how he acted towards other people really wouldn't make a lot of sense -- where I thought a silent protagonist really felt necessary. Zelda games are generally one of these. Dragon Quest 8 is another, and I'm not really sure why, Earthbound's a third, and I've already explained why I think this, and Contact's the fourth I can think of off-hand, although I'm not really sure HOW to explain why I think this.

It didn't really bug me in Chrono Trigger for whatever reason (I'm willing to accept that Crono was actually mute [from years of eating dieffenbachia]) and it didn't bug me in Cross since that game was about Kid anyway.

I think Ys VI was the one where it bugged me the most, especially since instead of just leaving Adol silent, they actually narrated everything he did and was supposed to say and it was just *weird*.

Also, I'm not recalling the mains in IoG or Terranigma being silent, but I don't recall them having a whole lot of dialogue either. Same for Secret of Mana.

Personally I'm fond of what Wizardry 8 did with letting you assign a voice/personality set to your characters.
7438  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Stupid RPG conventions/cliches you can't get past. on: July 12, 2008, 11:00:43 PM
I like the exploration aspect. This isn't the best example, but in the original Dragon Quest, the king basically just tells you to kill Dragonlord and it's up to you to actually go out into the world and figure out how to DO that.

I think the main difference between oldschool and newschool RPGs is that oldschool RPGs work under the assumption that you're going to explore the world just because you can. I really have a hard time articulating what I'm trying to say here, I guess.
7439  Media / Single-Player RPGs / New freeware thingum -- Iffermoon. on: July 12, 2008, 08:03:20 PM
It's weird as fuck. It's like Valkyrie Profile + Castle Infinity + Creatures Adventure + The Spirit Engine. It's like one of those weird games I've seen in my dreams, only REAL.


I'm not actually sure what I think about this thing yet. It does have some comma usage issues so if those bother you as much as they bother me (which is doubtful) you might want to steel yourself.

(I can't really think of any ways to make this post douchey so just pretend I said something really douchey here. also am I spelling douchey right?)
7440  Media / Single-Player RPGs / RPGs Only You've Played. on: July 12, 2008, 07:57:32 PM
Nope. I bought it as part of that Ultimate RPG Archives collection. I don't know if there was a manual for that but my copy didn't have one.

Figures. Okay, original Ultimate RPG Archives release should've had this postiviely hugeass manual. You must've got a later release where they parred back on stuff. My suggestion would be to check the game discs for PDFs.

Back then, as a copy protection feature (Disguised as a memory saving feature), most of the game text was stored in the manuals and when the game says "Reference passage 19" you'd look up what it says.

Or you can just grab all of the passages in a text file somewhere and look up the relevant passages as needed. It's a lot easier than using an actual paper manual. Replacementdocs.com would probably work.

Anyway though, without the manual, the game isn't really playable. It IS a really good game though and definitely worth playing, and the writing is pretty smart. I can't say I played THAT far into it, but I played it a lot longer than I played Fallout 2 and liked it a whole lot more, too (I guessI never got all the fuss about Fallout 2. It just seemed like Fallout 1, but less... Yeah. Like Fallout 1, but less.)
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