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Next Quiz Date: January 11, 2014
Subject: 999 (Nintendo DS)
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7486  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Dragon Quest Swords Release Date announced, Feb 26 on: December 11, 2007, 10:29:16 PM
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I find battles long and dragged-out


I'm mostly familiar with 7 and 8, but the battle there are quite fast and short. Normal battles shouldn't last longer than three turns unless you've got everyone using single hit weapons and aren't really spreading your attacks out for some reason.

Actually, I think I'll prove this with science.

Okay, rough times:

DQ7 - 65 seconds.
FFVII - 45 seconds.

I wanted to use FFVI, because the ATB thing takes *forever* to charge in FFVI, but I'm at the awful bit where you have to fight Kefka on that mountain in Narshe and I'm thinking of just gamesharking past it because the entire bit is horribly designed and unbalanced.

anyway, some things to consider. In the DQ7 battle, each enemy took 3 or 4 hits to kill as they were a few levels above me and I haven't purchased any new equipment lately. In the FFVII battle, each enemy went down in two hits

DQVII battle had four enemies. FFVII battle had three.

So, yes, DQ's battle took longer, but the enemies took more hits and there were more of them, and I was underlevelled in comparison to them. In FFVII, I'm somewhat overlevelled in comparison to the enemies in the battle, and there were less, and they died quicker. Also, speed-wise, the enemines in DQVII, being of a higher level, all went first, so each enemy got about three attacks in, whereas in the FFVII battle, each enemy maybe got a single attack in.

So, proportionally speaking, DQVII's battle took 20 seconds long up against significantly more challenging enemies. I don't really think that's substantially longer, or any more dragged out.
7487  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Official (cause I said so) Mass Effect Thread...GO! on: December 11, 2007, 04:01:25 PM
Did they ever make the dialogue not suck? I mean, not the branching or facial animations of whatever. I mean the writing. Every screenshot I've seen with subtitles, or ever video... dreadful, dreadful writing.
7488  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Dragon Quest Swords Release Date announced, Feb 26 on: December 11, 2007, 12:52:14 PM
wasn't this how panzer dragon saga worked? Mostly normal RPG with a rail shooter battle engine?
7489  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Seiken Densetsu 3... (thanks for dice for correct me) on: December 11, 2007, 12:51:21 PM
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ff12 is true break of the formula not just because the battle system


FFXII's battle system isn't really a break. Yes, you have a more robust auto-battle feature for the non-controlled characters. Yes, you can move around during combat. Yes, range plays a (small) role (with bows, apparently, but your NPCs never fire their bows outside of an enemy's attack range, so what the hell). However, it's still balanced around the ATB setup of the past games, still based around the same turn order deciding system and, if you turned gambits off, you'd basically be standing still and issuing orders as turns came up. As in the previous games.

I mean, basically, it looks different. It really isn't, though.

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+real time battle of course
+emphasis on storyline = the others have to their time
+real level up system
+plays like traditional rpg.
+multiplayer of some sort.


First, that's incredibly vague. Second, "traditional RPG" is very, very much what the SD games *haven't* been, unless you mean some broad, "You go to towns and buy equipment and explore dungeons" type thing, thus leaving 'multiplayer of some sort' as the only defining criteria, which I guess has been in a lot of the games, but I'm still really mystified as to why this is considered a keystone element because it's really never been well implemented.
7490  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Seiken Densetsu 3... (thanks for dice for correct me) on: December 11, 2007, 03:43:59 AM
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but they had good stories for their time ... the mana series has great potential to be amazing it just need to back to the classic formula in 3d


There is no classic formula.

SD1, 2, and 3 all played vastly differently from eachother. The single unifying theme is "real time," but as I said, even this varies, with SD3's slower combat and greater emphasis on throwing skills/magics at the enemy and less on manual dexterity.

Also, consider that SD3 dropped the weapon based puzzles (or puzzles in general, really), that SD1 didn't really have a "party," SD1 and SD2 didn't have classes, etc, etc, etc.

So, what, I call this another gamer mentality quirk, I guess. That if there's a series without any real formula, gamers WILL latch on to some nonexistant formula and complain when new games don't adhere to it. Usually said formula is a particular gimmick of a single game in the series, and said game is... I don't know, the zeitgeist of... something.

so, like, for a gamer coming into final fantasy with FFVII, the series' formula would be massive character customization. Someone coming in with FFIV? No customization at all, and basing your strategies around what you get. FFI? Probably wondering why they can't make their own characters.

I mean, yes, you can break down, say, Sword of Mana and pretty much analyze why the hell it sucked and was broken on several levels, but adhering to the classic formula? You can't say it didn't. I mean, yes, I said there is no classic formula. But if you could construe some mishmash formula based on various traits from the first three games? Sword pretty much DID stick with those.

Then again, that's probably precisely why it sucked on a... ultimate cause sort of level, but I'm not getting into that.

(Another fun aside -- You can change the decorations, texturing, etc. in a level and usually convince a gamer that it's different from another identical level with the same underlying design, but a different appearance. I'm going to call this the Quake effect, or maybe the Sonic affect since that's more what I'm talking about, and Quake's more like, people think Quake has suck levels because they're ugly [including me, although I'm in the rare camp that actually thinks graphics matter. quite a lot]. I have no idea how this relates back to what I'm talking about).

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and i think that we need to blame square enix management ,rather the devlopers ,it the management that decide that the series wil expand to "more areas than the original do"


Well, yeah, as I said, I think the developers are pretty much just there in name. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Ishii considered Legend of Mana his favorite game from the series and he felt that he'd done everything he'd needed to do with said series.
7491  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Dragon Quest Swords Release Date announced, Feb 26 on: December 11, 2007, 03:37:45 AM
why don't you guys like DQ :(
7492  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Help suggest Games like DQ8 on: December 10, 2007, 11:56:39 PM
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Instead of hopping right to FFVII or FFX (which don't have great overworlds), try FFVI or FFIV advance. 2 of the best turn based RPGs of all time...


Neither of these are particularly much like DQ8.
7493  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Seiken Densetsu 3... (thanks for dice for correct me) on: December 10, 2007, 04:10:06 PM
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I mean, how does a reputable company keep making shit sequels?!


Probably because the gamers keep asking for sequels without thinking about whether a sequel is really necessary, or considering that the original devs probably don't even care about the series anymore?

Or because Square pretty much can't do anything but pander to their fans anymore because that's exactly what their fans want them to do, and said fans will still buy every single thing they release even if it does suck?

(It's also not like SD2 and 3 had really amazing characters or stories or balance or hit detection or...

Well, except that SD2 actually did have a pretty good story that used EVIL EMPIRE as a backdrop to something more, I don't know, sinister, whereas SD3 pretty much just had an evil empire and stopped there.)
7494  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Seiken Densetsu 3... (thanks for dice for correct me) on: December 10, 2007, 02:29:04 AM
Also true. Well, maybe not so much balance, but some classes were just sort of boring. Or unbalanced in an unfun way.
7495  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Help suggest Games like DQ8 on: December 09, 2007, 11:32:51 PM
(New reply since I feel like bumping this).

Not terribly far in DQM2 since I somehow forgot I had it. Have been playin DQ7 more though!

So I got to the part with the Deja Tribe where

Code:

Kiefer runs off to be a Guardian, never to be seen again, although I guess you see his grave sometime in the present-tense world.

I found that entire bit rather screwed up and, uh, sort of unnerving for some reason. At least partially because I expected to go back through the warp and find them there, but they'd gone away. Also, I'd really started liking Kiefer and he'd been there from the beginning, too.

Also the whole temporal mindfuck thing. He's not *actually* dead but in your time he *is* so...


Oh, what else.

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The Ari arc.

Not so much for the plotline itself, but for what happens when you get back to the present. And you go to the guy's shed and it's all SKELETON.


So yeah, though, the separate plot threads are coming together and I'm really digging how it's turning out. I like how none of the individual story arcs have any real immediate closure, and you're sort of just left hanging for a few more hours, and when you DO get closure, it's mostly for your party members, and never for the secondary characters involved because they're dead by that point.

So yes, it's a lot less cute and happy than I first expected but then again, DW4 apparently has a poisonous mine full of dead children so I really shouldn't be expecting "happy" here.

(Maribel is a ****ing bitch. And not in a good way like Jessica).
7496  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Seiken Densetsu 3... (thanks for dice for correct me) on: December 09, 2007, 11:18:35 PM
I didn't really like SD3's class system, at least partially for the reason Raze said. And also partially because whatever (ranger, I think. light path) I took for hawk's first class change never got me anything remotely useful. the other classes seem alright so I'm going to focus more on the first point.

As Raze also said, SD3's more rigid class system DOES do a nice job of keeping characters unique, or rather not letting you master everything. However, this introduces a new problem in that, in, say, FFV, you can pretty much be getting new skills relatively constantly, whereas in SD3 you're going to be getting a large amount of new skills a few levels after the class change and then nothing for awhile. It's sort of a stagnation problem.

Anyway, the abundance of skills tends to cause an over-reliance on them. The fact that every time you use one, it effectively pauses the game doesn't help. So it ends up being less of an action RPG and more of... I don't know, it's just a lot less actiony and a lot more "stand around and pick things from a menu" which is sort of what action RPGs are supposed to avoid. Likewise, it's even more problematic when enemies use magic, because it, again, pauses stuff, and you can't really avoid it, so combat is basically throwing a bunch of spells and weapon-based skills between the two parties with very little reliance on actually... action or physical dexterity or whatever else typically gets associated with action RPGs.

I guess I can say that it sort of feels like how FFXII felt to me -- like Chrono Trigger, only done really sloppily.

(I could also maybe draw another comparison to Arc the Lad, which I sort of think of as Chrono Trigger with a proper in-battle movement system, but I don't think I will).

And, after all, the FF problem with class changes ruining uniqueness of characters is more because the entire series is just massively unbalanced in millions of ways.

But anyway, some other games that end up feeling much more like SD2 than SD3 did for me:

Summoner 2 - Which still has a lot of menu based skills and no real class change system, but you DO get to level up various skill groups, and your characters never get un-unique (and actually play differently when manually controlled). It also remains pretty actiony throughout. Quite lovely.

Zelda: The Twilight Princess, oddly enough. I can't really say why and none of the other Zelda's do for me, really, but this just sort of does.

Illusion of Gaia, quite a bit, although it's less RPGish, and you've not a party. I really like this entire series a lot, actually, but IoG feels the Seikenishest.

Crystalis on the NES is also pretty similar, I believe, to what the original prototype for SD2 was supposed to be like, but again, sans party.
7497  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Seiken Densetsu 3... (thanks for dice for correct me) on: December 07, 2007, 08:19:59 PM
Other than being real time, it doesn't play like Secret of Mana much.
7498  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Persona 3 on: December 03, 2007, 03:46:55 PM
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Some of the characters are TOO nice, and the school's almost TOO happy of a place to be believable!


Persona, dawg. People ACT nice. That doesn't mean they ARE nice.

That and it's not like the main is giving anyone a reason to bully him.

That and if you're in a Secret Society of People That Can Shoot Themselves to Summon Demons you REALLY don't want to be pissing eachother off for several reasons that I hope should be obvious.

Also, and this is going to sound crazy, and I can only really explain it in terms of some rather obscure British PC games that I doubt anyone here has really played, but sometimes occaisional stupid decisions from the AI can make the AI characters endearing.
7499  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Persona 3 on: December 02, 2007, 03:39:00 PM
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Normally, I would agree with you about the whole Persona-equipping-thing, but considering there are a bunch of characters within SEES, being able to equip anyone with whatever Persona you wanted them to have would sort of defeat the purpose of having all those party members.


Remember the whole 'too much customization is a bad thing' thing?

Persona 3 strikes a middle ground. You get a bunch of characters you can't customize, and one you can do whatever you want to. I like how it works out!

I'm also pretty sure the AI in Persona 3 'learns.' I've occaisionally seen, say, Junpei use an attack a certain shadow is immune to, but he literally says "Oh crap!" and never does it again and, for that matter, if you've analyzed the enemy, they'll start exploiting their weaknesses right off the bat.

Actually, are you guys using the analyze command? I'm starting to wonder if that plays a potentially large role in how the party members act. And why, say, some people find the AI ineffective and others are finding it very smart.

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Yeah, the...artbook kind of gives that away.


And the manual, doesn't it? Or at the least main character personas evolving was in Persona 2 so yeah.

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Kind of like how we get in good with people that we don't like because of whatever perceived benefit, IRL.


Which is the concept that I'm PRETTY SURE Jung's persona theories were based on anyway.

Yeah.

Holy ****, a concept RPG. I mean, I think that at the least, you have to respect that the gameplay elements actually relate back to the story and everything, on a more meaningful level than RIP AND TEAR. YOU HAVE HUGE GUTS.
7500  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Persona 3 on: December 02, 2007, 12:02:22 AM
I like having to talk to characters to equip them and check their status. It forces you to interact with them, which achieves some sort of counter-disenfranchisement of the unit type thingy.
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