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RPGFan Community Quiz!
Subject: Persona 3: FES
Prize: $20 eShop, PSN or Steam code
Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
331779 Posts in 13583 Topics by 2191 Members
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7636  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Top 5 RPGs everyone loves to hate on: May 02, 2008, 02:50:38 AM
Are we doing FF lists? Mine will be zany. I'll divide it up by generations first.

8-Bit:

1) FF3 (Remake or original)
2) FF2
3) FF1

9-bit:

1) FFV
2) FFVI
3) FFIV (Hardtype. Never played easytype. I expect to like the DS remake)

17-bit:

1) FFIX
2) FFVII
3) FFVIII

21-bit:

1) Large, inedbile, axolotl-shaped clusterfuck.

So, if we conver this down to a single list, we get irregularities:

1) FFIX
2) FFVII
3) FF3 DS Remake
4) FF2
5) FFV
6) FF3 Original
7) FFX
8) FFXII
9) FFVIII
10) FF1
11) FFVI
12) FFIV

Tactis isn't in the list because then I'd have to include FFTA and Vagrant Story and things would start getting off kilter.

Anyway, the above list isn't so much in order of like to dislike as in order of how much I want to play these individual games. The two GENERALLY coincide.

there's a bit of a disconnect as I want to play FFVIII more than FFXII typically. Also the only reason FF1/FFI is low is because of rows of 100% battle chance tiles in hallways in dungeons and the relative uselessness of the thief class.

In regards to Steambot chronicles, I am now recalling feeling like it kept forcing me around too much, even though it was supposed to be sandboxy. This was also a complaint I had about Sp... er... Rogue Galaxy. This is NOT a problem I had with Metal Saga (although the alternative problem of not knowing where to go was definitely true, although it bugged me a lot less, although it was an actual issue in this game, as getting certain events to trigger could be odd, whereas in most nonlinear games, going to a different town is generally a good bet for getting something to happen. In Legend of Mana, for instance, you could get a bit lost on what to do next in a particular event chain but triggering SOME sort of event was never too difficult; or in the case of Romancing SaGa, you had a little "quest level" meter that would determine when certain quests fired so you could sort of gauge what was going on).

What the fuck am I talking about jesus christ it's almost 3 AM.
7637  Media / Single-Player RPGs / The World Ends with You on: May 02, 2008, 02:40:02 AM
Being finals week (and being supposed to be working on a Russian ePortfolio which is going slowly and I have no idea how to use Powerpoint to create attractive looking whateverthehells it makes OH god) I haven't had a chance to play the game much recently but I will say that Neku's assholishness is kind of bizarre.

Entirely speculation so I'm not spoilering this out but it's like since he has amnesia from the beginning of the game, he just picked up some sort of random personality. He's a douche, but in a really dissociated and emptyish sort of way -- like he's just existing and not actually doing anything beyond that.

I THINK that's what they were trying to do with Cloud in FFVII, really, but who knows.

Ну, мне надо заниматься...

---edit---

also, for the record, I honestly think P3's battle system has far more in common with highlife than straight-up rap or R&B. Yeah, the singing bits are rapped, but the horn sections are straight up highlife. I think you could make an argument for ska too, maybe, but ska seems to almost require a piano anymore, and skat mixed with rap are something you're far more likely to hear in highlife than ska. That, and the guitar skronk-mimicing-a-bass thing makes me think highlife too, though I don't know why.

For people that saying WEWY's music works better in context, not that the composer started out a synth programmer. There's probably a connection there.

In the case of Blue Dragon's boss theme, it's not so much that it's a Dragonforce ripoff (Which is silly as Dragonforce is perfectly capable of ripping off themselves) with terrible singing overtop. It's the complete lack of cohesion between the elements. The singing doesn't sound like it's PART of the song. There's a random-ass organ solo in there for some reason. In regards to the singing, it's not even that the lyrics are stupid and sound like the guy's making them up as he goes along. It's the complete disregard for rhythm. Or lyrics that take advantage of the natural rhythmic properties of the English language.
7638  Media / Single-Player RPGs / The World Ends with You on: May 01, 2008, 06:31:08 PM
...

I'm not one to usually do this but I'm going to assume you're either sarcastic or just have bad taste in music.
7639  Media / Single-Player RPGs / A quick question about Persona 3. on: May 01, 2008, 04:08:40 AM
I don't know if I already posted this, but I really wish I had Persona 3 in highschool. I had Persona 1. You know. The game without very many save points and the few you did have were trees.

I'm going to replay that game with Ellen sometime.

In any case I just realized I've been frequenting this site since I was in sixth grade, and that the first time I heard about Persona was from an EGM preview from when I was in 4th grade. That issue also previewed FFVII.

also I got persona 1 after I got persona 2 and I've only finished 1, I guess. Also one of the shop owners in P2 looked a lot like my old German teacher.

I have no idea what any of this means but it makes me feel sort of sad.
7640  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Top 5 RPGs everyone loves to hate on: May 01, 2008, 03:05:28 AM
In regards to XG, it's not that disc 2 was too short, that the sprites were too pixelly, and the story too confusing. It's that disc 2 was unfinished, the sprites were too pixelly, and the story was to nonsensical.
7641  Media / Single-Player RPGs / The World Ends with You on: May 01, 2008, 02:45:00 AM
Yeah, the more stuff I see opening up for Shiki, the more I realize...

Well, stuff opens up as you go along. I *like* that.

I really need to start using the "sub" setting for certain pins so that I like, LAUNCH said motorcycle at the enemy instead of attacking it.

---edit---

also what the hell why are people complaining about Persona 3 music but not http://youtube.com/watch?v=sCNyNmuFSlw
7642  Media / Single-Player RPGs / The World Ends with You on: May 01, 2008, 01:00:41 AM
I still haven't gotten a grip on handling the upper screen, honestly, but I think the lower screen stuff's a blast, especially if you're trying to get insane combos.

Also I think this is one of the few games where I enjoy grinding, for a few reasons.

A) Very tangible benefits. New clothes and pins and food everywhere, so you're only grinding for stuff and not to get past a certain goal (Well, the red shirt guys, sort of, but that's different for reasons below).
B) Grinding never actually TAKES long, really.
C) You're in control of the reward. You can drop your level and have to play more skillfully, but in return, you get better swag.
D) That battle system's entirely active and quite fun and rather River City Ransomish, sort of.

In some regards, it IS sort of Square ripping off SMT/Persona. In other regards, is this actually a bad thing?

Also it has a bear with tattoos for arms.
7643  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Top 5 RPGs everyone loves to hate on: May 01, 2008, 12:00:48 AM
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Also MeshGearFox .. Great minds think alike. Apparently that's not a lie. .P


True but I'm Russian major furry that has trouble forming coherent sentences and using credit card readers and I spend my free time looking at pictures of rare pine trees on the internet.

Additional comments:

I keep seeing FFIX come up and I'm going to jump on the bandwagon. I don't know if it's my personal FAVORITE FF, but I started really playing it FOR REAL recently, started again this year, and I'm really liking it a lot. I think in some ways it might be one of the better executed FFs. It's quite well balanced, fairly difficult without being annoying, and has some really nicely done side stuff.

In addition to Legend of Mana comments (because post I just made in WEWY reminded me of this and I don't know if I already mentioned it): LoM reminds me way more of River City Ransom than Secret of Mana but I don't consider this a bad thing.
7644  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Top 5 RPGs everyone loves to hate on: April 30, 2008, 09:50:53 PM
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Compared to Oblivion I personally liked Steambot Chronicles more since it was a perfect balance between non-linearity and an engaging (yet silly) storyline.


Jesus christ I think I've said that EXACT sentence in other posts I've made in other places.

Though I haven't really played Steambot chronicles that much since I got it :( I have no idea why. I think it's because I went away to college and my roommate sort of hijacked the PS2.
7645  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Top 5 RPGs everyone loves to hate on: April 30, 2008, 01:36:22 PM
Quote
what childish game has bunny girls and puff-puff?


WTF? DQ8 also has a pretty hefty body count.

Quote
Many have complained about the Three-Day rule.


I wonder though if in the Persona 3 era if that would be a lot better recieved.
7646  Media / Single-Player RPGs / A quick question about Persona 3. on: April 30, 2008, 03:44:30 AM
If your parents are okay with you seeing a giant blue-green penis with a bunch of tentacles on it, four tiny, tyrannosaurus rex like arms, riding around in a golden chariot made of knives, get FES.

If not, get regular Persona 3.
7647  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Horror RPGs on: April 29, 2008, 10:10:48 PM
I thought the hospital in SMT: N was creepier than the one in Persona 2.
7648  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Horror RPGs on: April 29, 2008, 09:16:10 PM
Quote
Not to be too pretentious about the entire thing.


But that's what RPG BBSes are for!
7649  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Top 5 RPGs everyone loves to hate on: April 29, 2008, 06:51:29 PM
World Map Post:

Oh wow I entirely forgot where I was going with this :<<<<

But in regards to DQ8, in addition to the tiger beast, the "teleport anywhere I've been" spell is like, the second spell you get.

Quote
Ultima 7 has probably one of the best world maps, and it's almost to scale as well!


It's completely to scale, actually. Dungeons are *on* the world map. The places where it goes out of scale are mainly in the sense that the worldmap is actually kind of tiny in some sense (google it. There's a to-scale picture of it and you can see what I mean), but I'm willing to let that slide.

Even TES games fall pray to "This house is BIGGER on the OUTSIDE than on the INSIDE" like we're all living in some sort of crazy Danielewski land.

Western RPG Thing:

Quote
It's extremely hard, almost impossible, to create a compelling, emotional or affecting, storyline in a non-linear game.


Okay, this is actually a matter of, er... how MUCH non-linearity? And again, I'm going to use Morrowind and Oblivion here because they really show what I'm talking about.

Morrowind and Oblivion are both very non-linear, but there's a big difference, that being that Morrowind tends to employ quest-arcs a lot more often. Specifically, let's talk about the mages guilds in both games. In oblivion, each guildhouse offered... a single quest. In Morrowind, each guildhouse overed between like, 6 and 20 I believe? Anyway.

Each quest in Morrowind in a particular guildhouses quest line didn't really have any particulary story connection to the last. However, you were getting these quests from the same place and from the same quest giver and sort of dealing with the same merchants.

You formed a connection to the place and a few (admittedly genericish) NPCs.

Another questline which Morrowind had, that I believe Oblivion had no analogue to, was the Anahssi line. A single character that actually does get some development as you go along.

In the case of an extremely non-linear RPG, you can't really create a single compelling storyline, nor should that be the point. However, you DO need to create poignant, interesting, and meaningful events. Not just for the sake of storytelling, but because if all of your fetch quests amount to FETCH ME A CANOE twenty times over, the player's going to get bored.

Okay, so let's move into less-linear territory. Let's talk about Ultima 7 again. ultima 7's main storyline is almost entirely linear. It's also a very good storyline, quite memorable, well told, and full of interesting characters. Also Lord British was ballsy enough to take on scientology. But yeah, storyline is very linear.

Ultima 7, as a game however, is NOT that linear. Why?

Well, here's the thing. It has lots of sidequests. Lots of optional jobs you can do. And lots of hidden things to explore. There aren't any artificial boundaries anywhere -- you can pretty much go anywhere whenever you want to. however, the *storyline* and events tied to that occur in a more or less linear fashion.

Most non-linear PC/Western RPGs aren't non-linear in the strictest sense, but are rather either linear or multilinear and just offer a lot of sidequests and exploration opportunity. TES games are actually probably the only genuinely non-linear western RPG series. Well, no, but they're the only ones I can really think of off hand.

There are also a few fairly linear western RPGs -- Albion and Septerra Core come to mind, although I've never played the latter much but want to (but if we're speaking about really godawful face portraits, JESUS CHRIST WHAT THE HELL).

Quote
tend to focus more on equipment values


That's not really the case so much. Well... sort of. This requires some explaining.

Western RPGs weren't originally so grognardy. Even the goldbox ones wihch were based on Dungeons and Dragons (Then again I think D&D was also probably less retarded back then too. No idea). We could probably use Morrowind and Oblivion as an example here. In Morrowind, you're more likely to wear armor because it LOOKS cool. In Oblivion, you're going with whatever has the best stats.

One of the original points about Ultima -- well, starting with 4, at least -- were the conversation trees. really detailed conversation trees and NPC interaction, basically. I'm not going to say this ever became standard, but western RPGs used to be way more story oriented than they are now and I think they do kind of suffer for it. Not so much because the lack of story but because powergaming seems to have replaced it (and powergaming and grinding go hand in hand to extend this to WoW).

Finally, another important concept -- and this ties in with what I mentioned about characters -- is that a character you create and build yourself is something you'll have more emotional involvement with than a premade character. When looking at this in terms of the minimax hell that something like WoW, apparently, or Diablo 2 or Oblivion turns into, you can see the problem, in that you're not so much building a character as you are building a set of number.

Second, homemade characters tend to be memorable when they do really fascinating things. In an RPG, this usually means getting a bunch of critical hits or something else that's decidedly awesome. They also tend to be memorable from bizarre quirks or flaws they develop, either through improper building or just in general.

Finally, I have to bring up Dwarf Fortress. The game doesn't have any pre-set story. at the same time, you can't really say it DOESN'T have a story. The story is formed by the actions that happen in the game. Technically you could say this about a lot of things but then you'd mostly be wrong because the reason this actually works for Dwarf Fortress is that it has far more details than any other game ever and your dwarves can miscarry and then get really mad and kill people as a result.

Quote
I think that JRPGs like FF have done so well in the mainstream because they do tell a story and are linear.


I thought it was because FFVII let you ride around on a motorcycle while stabbing people :] In any case you can make the argument thta FFVII made RPGs mainstreamer and FFVII actually had lots of side stuff.

Emotional impact, in regards to, say, your characters is something else entirely that I'll talk about later.

-- Summer Glau
7650  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Top 5 RPGs everyone loves to hate on: April 29, 2008, 06:17:15 PM
Oh crap, gobs of replies.  and... wait, what the hell, I replied after a bunch of them? Goddamn finals week.

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Legend of Mana- why the hate? I have no idea. For a "not-secret-of-mana"-esque game, it sure better than all three World of Mana titles put together and works damn well as part of the series or on its own.


Don't bring up LoM :( I'm likely to defend it and say stupid stuff. Although as a massive fanboy of the game I will point out some completely valid flaws which were, strangely, the ones nobody seemed to care about.

1. Way too damn easy on normal mode. AI is still a bit dumb on the harder modes but things are generally a lot better. Of course, the normal modes aren't open at the beginning. Argh?

2. Stupid dungeon design. Why was secret of mana the only game in the entire series to do this right? SD1 had that stupid thing with the keys and doors re-locking, SD3's dungeons were more or less completely empty of everything in general, and LoM had vaguely identical looking mazes.

3. The keep-away tap. It's something you do with the spear, though technically I think all weapons can do it -- the spear is just best. It basically means you constantly do weak attacks on an enemy, paralyzing them. Extremely unbalancing.

4. Completely lack of decent documentation. What the hell !!!

CC Stuff:

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The battle mechanics were different, but I think for the better.


CC is to my knowledge the only RPG that basically recharges your magic completely after every battle, more or less. This gets away from the "Well, MP is so limitted that magic is basically useless" problem that a lot of RPGs (Phantasy Star 2, for instance, is stupid with this.) have*, but at the same time, you can only use a spell once per battle, and need to "charge up" the costlier ones, keeping it balanced.

I also think people tend to praise CT's battle system for sort of goofy reasons. The "fighting on the field" thing was mostly cosmetic and the combos in and of themselves, while nice, aren't really a huge thing. It's the combos combined with how ATB works in the game combines with HOLY CRAP EVERYONE'S ACTION MENU ON SCREEN AT ONCE!?!?!? combined with area-effect attacks that really makes it all work out. It's actually a really incredibly feat of balancing.

Also it has puzzle bosses that are actually, er, solvable.

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The only thing that did suck, IMHO, was the fucking artist's art.


Iiiiiiiiiii sort of have to agree, yeah :/ I wouldn't say it's bad, but kind of suckitudinal. Especially since it's not really universally bad, and inconsistency is DEFINITELY the keystone of suckitudinality.

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Star Ocean 3- I think the primary hate was the story.


For me, personally, it was the big, empty, maze-like dungeons and a bunch of other things I can't even remember but I can't play the game without getting panic attacks and vague nausea for some reason.

Quote
asking for 10 zippers or less in any of the latest Final Fantasy games.


'sit just me or is WEWY sort of hanging a lampshade on that?

As for FFXII, I really didn't like the battle system, which is my main issue. Also would've like other, eh.... metagame sidquestery thingums than just the hunters guild. Like, sky piracy or an Elite-esque stuff trading system to get money, or a Skies of Arcadia-ish discovery thing would've been perfect.

For organization's sake I'd like to make a seperate post talking about the worldmap comments since this one's getting long. I'll merge them down if the ops have a problem with it though.

* I thought this applied to CT at first too, partially 'cause MP restoratives are so costly, but I realized magic costs are cheapish, and that shelters are also cheap and there are plenty of save points. Thus, convserving magic's not that huge of an issue. In this sense, too, CC is definitely in the spirit of CT, especially considering that everyone was effectively a mage in CT, too.
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