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Messages - Ramza

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16
Single-Player RPGs / Re: Nier 2 for PS4
« on: April 12, 2017, 12:28:05 AM »
IronMage, THANK YOU! That's kind of where I thought it was going. It makes you wonder where someone else thinks they're going... :)

Endings C,D & E
Spoiler: show
Glad they got a delete save data option in there somewhere (I did not delete mine at this time -- gotta do the side-quests). There were some good reveals at this stage and I was really hooked by this point. Loved A2 and the drama that went with her; wish we could have learned a bit more about her history and what she'd been up to pre-Automata. Her relationship with 9S was really good and a bit part of why I was glued to the ending, but I think 9S and 2B's relationship was just a little too weak to make his anger at A2 fully justifiable. Easy enough to let slide though. Oh, also, loved briefly visiting the library from Nier and the explanation of Popola and Devola.

Response:
Spoiler: show
I loved going back to NieR's library room as well. That was a great scene. I also loved Devola and Popola's return, and their feeling guilt as a full *model* of androids ... some kind of collective guilt,
 that they choose to atone for. It's powerful. AS FOR A2, who was originally just android #2 in the first phase of YoRHa ... there is this stage play that came out a year or two before this game just called "YoRHa" -- I can't find the video with subtitles, but earlier in this thread someone posted the full screenplay in English. It goes over YoRHa's first big assignment, ending with the Pearl Harbor fiasco. Jackass, Anemone, A2, and the Commander are all first-gen members of YoRHa. It's because A2 learns about YoRHa's true purpose (lying about humanity) that she defects. It's unknown to me if the others know and are continuing, or if they just think A2 is nuts. Also, I believe in the naming convention "A2" being like "et tu" as in "et tu, Bruté?" since A2 is labeled "The Betrayer." This is similar to 2B being "To Be, or not to be" -- yet another Shakespearian reference. In the YoRHa play, by the way, all the characters are named after flowers. Anemone, alongside being a "sea anemone," *is* the name of a flower.
 Dahlia was another one. There were a bunch. But one just gets simply nicknamed "white" in the Stage Play YoRHa. So when Jackass and Anemone talk about "White," that's the Commander.




Questions:
Spoiler: show
  • What was the point of Adam & Eve? They seemed to have no real overall plot relevance once you get to C & D.
  • What was up with the Tower? In Ending C is seems to just collapse on its own? I understand it was there to shoot 'stuff' into space, but I still didn't really get the overall purpose of doing that.
  • Did we ever find out how the aliens died? Did I miss that?
  • Who is the voice speaking to 9S and A2 in the tower and why is the male voice represented by two girls in red dresses?
  • Who started Project Yorha if humanity is dead and even the Commander doesn't know everything?


RESPONSES!
Spoiler: show

- Adam & Eve. They are the first two manifestations of the machine's attempt to essentially "hijack" humanity. In C/D they're dormant ... you kinda killed them, but the main networked machine (Girl(s) in Red) keeps their code & memory, which is how they're all goin' to the moon together.

- Collapsing tower ... I think it's designed to collapse with the launch, and the launch happens in C/D/E no matter what. Just think about the towers and whatnot that come down when we launch rockets into space these days. I think the machines knew it'd be like that when they were building the place, which may have been going on for thousands of years. Also provides for a nice climactic ending: crumbling buildings are the stuff of endgame scenarios. :)

- Adam states quite clearly that the machines killed all the aliens. He didn't say how, or how long it took, or if machines are on a home planet far away and those machines ALSO killed aliens, or what year(s) the genocide happened. But if we are to believe Adam, they're all quite dead. It's important to remember what we know about these so-called aliens: apparently, they had a plant-like cell and organ structure ... so, too, do the machine cores, and so, too, do the Android black boxes. I don't think Androids always had black boxes (Devola/Popola pairs didn't have them...? If they did, I think that's what Dev/Pop would've *used* on NieR and crew in the first game!). The YoRHa androids get them once the YoRHa program begins, but they are definitely reverse-engineered based on machine cores, which were reverse engineered based on the structure of these apparent aliens. The existence of these aliens remains one of the big shoulder-shrugs. There's no supplemental material that talks about them ... yet. I have my own theories.

- The voice speaking to them is the networked machine, which is personified as the Red Girl(s). The Red Girl(s) are the visual representation going as far back as the YoRHa Stage Play. I think if you study them, though this is my opinion, it looks like Yonah wearing a red dress. I could be off base. In any case, play through the game again and you'll see that the Red Girl(s) are always watching. They appear in the 9S ending (B), watching you there. In a scene before the YoRHa satellite is destroyed, when you descend on a flight unit to earth as 9S, you can see one of the red girls watching you.

- Who *started* YoRHa? That's a really good question. I don't think the stage play gets into it. What we can say for sure is that it wasn't created by anyone who serves in it, unless they had a full memory erase before entering it. My best guess? A handful of androids that weren't in YoRHa but who had a crazy plan to re-motivate their kind decided to invent YoRHa as a sort of noble lie ... I think this is Yoko Taro's version of "tell society there is a God so they will behave" -- in this case, behaving means surviving and fighting against machines, not passively letting them kill you all. Taro stated definitely that no matter what ending was "canon" in NieR, all humanity would be dead (it's D by the way, where all memories of NieR are wiped, though Emil seems to remember, envision him juuuust during the end of the super-optional fight, which you probably still need to do...). Emil *was* human, but the Hamelin group made him human+Maso (the crazy energy black-dust shit that came from Drakengard), hence creepy-head. This lets him live on, and he sees humanity die out. There is a Japanese graphic novel that covers this, and even goes into a scenario where Emil and Kainé fight some asshole who is manufacturing "evil androids" -- Kainé dies in that battle. Anyway, YoRHa's design and existence comes about because 85 million Emil-duplicates can't hold off the aliens forever and *someone* has to come up with an alternative. It IS possible that Emil, or Emil with some android co-conspirators, design YoRHa in an attempt to give Emil some reprieve so all his clones don't go batshit crazy and destroy everyone. His self-preservation needs (including memory) had to kick in at some point, and it's only after YoRHa really starts fighting back that Emil can catch a break. So that would be *motive* for Emil to design it. And then forget he designed it, because his memory is shit. So... literally no one would know it was all a lie. Except A2.

An additional question to consider: what happens when red girls / Adam+Eve / possibly 9S (in code form) reach the Moon? Consider the hexadecimal code I pulled from the liner notes of the soundtrack. Remember, the MACHINES think they're gonna find a bunch of humans. 9S knows that all they're going to find, at best, is a tiny repository with partial human DNA and maybe some databanks on human history and culture that couldn't be found elsewhere. UNLESS there's a double-lie and a real human made it ... but again, Yoko Taro doesn't lie, that wouldn't happen. DOUBLE-BUT! "The End of YoRHa" is complicated, because the game states at some point that a handful of YoRHa soldiers are actually stationed on the moon to protect it ... they apparently don't know the truth that it's the only thing there, but they think they're supposed to guard that area for the sake of humanity. Those androids could become key players in some future story.

ONE LAST THING -- with 1mil sales, SE might regret the apparent fight they had with Yoko Taro about expansions / DLC. If they regret it enough, we might be lucky enough to get a stand-alone A2 scenario telling the story of the Pearl Harbor mission. Which would be so epic.

17
Single-Player RPGs / Re: Nier 2 for PS4
« on: April 10, 2017, 05:30:18 PM »
SO, I received my copy of the NieR: Automata OST in the mail today. And one thing I noticed was something special in the liner notes. Yoko Taro, ever the bizarre one, decided to leave *his* message to fans in Hexadecimal code. (Source: http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=284712 -- you need a vgmdb account registered to see the image). Here it is, for your pleasure:

Quote
e3808ce3828ce3819fe3819de381aee5a0b4e68
980e381afe38081e381bee3828be381a7e5a4a9
e59bbde381aee38288e38186e381a0e381a3e38
19fe38082e6868ee38197e381bfe682b2e38197
e381bfe38282e381aae3818fe38081e3819fe381
a0e69a96e3818be38184e381b2e381a0e381bee
3828ae381aee38288e38186e381aae5a0b4e689
80e38082e381a7e38282e38081e3819de38193e
381abe585a5e3828be8a8b1e38197e381afe5be
97e38289e3828ce3828be38293e381a0e3828de
38186e3818befbc9fe58e9fe7bdaae38199e3828
9e68c81e381a6e381aae38184e38081e4babae5
bda2e381aee3808d0d0a0d0aefbc9cefbc99efbc
b3e381aee3838fe383bce38389e382a6e382a7e
382a2e383a1e383a2e383aae381abe6ae8be381
a3e381a6e38184e3819fe69c80e5be8ce381aee
8a898e98cb2e3818be38289efbc9e

If you use *this tool*, (hex to text), it gives you a unicode message in Japanese: http://www.unit-conversion.info/texttools/hexadecimal/ -- might not want to do this til you reach true end.

in spoiler tag below I have the original Japanese, and then a VERY ROUGH (first-blush Google Translate) English conversion. If anyone would like to make a smoother English version, that'd be great.

Spoiler: show

「れたその場所は、まるで天国のようだった。憎しみ悲しみもなく、ただ暖かいひだまりのような場所。でも、 そこに入る許しは得られるんだろうか?原罪すら持てない、人形の」

<9Sのハードウェアメモリに残っていた最後の記録から>

ENGLISH (Google Translate):

"That place where it was was like heaven. There is no hatred grief, just a place like a warm hoarse. But, can we get permission to enter there? Dolls can not have original sin"

- From the last record left in 9S hardware memory -


A thought:

Spoiler: show

Yoko Taro isn't just adding a little character flavor to 9S IMO. I think Yoko Taro, despite wearing the Emil mask, might identify with 9S in many ways...

18
Single-Player RPGs / Re: Nier 2 for PS4
« on: April 05, 2017, 09:55:02 PM »
Spoiler: show
I think many people had been avoiding it in this thread because it's SO spoiler-y.

That, or they didn't upgrade all the weapons. That's a lot of work. :)

But all of the Emil quests are great. The story regarding what happened with Emil and Kainé at the end of Kainé's life exists in graphic novel form ... if there's a scanlation out there, I'd love to see it.

But yeah, that final fight with Emil is absolutely nuts, and amazing, and I cried legit.

19
Single-Player RPGs / Re: Romancing SaGa 3 on Vita!
« on: April 04, 2017, 03:00:07 AM »
Okay, fine, sure. Make a new thread why don't you.

Did I miss a prior thread? I looked through topics before making this thread...

20
Single-Player RPGs / Romancing SaGa 3 on Vita!
« on: April 03, 2017, 11:58:10 PM »
http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2017/6083.html

Assuming this gets localized (as they did with iOS RS2, and have said they are finishing up on Vita RS2), that means that the RS trilogy will finally be available in English!

Now ... that leaves the two latest releases for them to localize (Imperial SaGa for PC, SaGa Scarlet Grace for Vita). I'm kinda-sorta okay waiting on them, I put hundreds of hours into RS1 (Minstrel Song, PS2), and I suspect the same effect will happen with RS2 and RS3. :)

21
Hurray, a reply!!

The TV anime is up to ep 12. *EDIT* I just watched ep 12 and apparently that was the finale. I wanted a 13th episode ... but they covered all they needed to. It ended in a way I didn't expect ... and just maybe, didn't want. But there are bits of resolution that made me very happy, especially for the supporting cast. Also, the music in the final episode is crazy-good.

I don't really read/collect manga, but the people I've talked to that read this manga said 1) it's amazing and 2) the TV adaptation maintains the core content very well.

Visually, the anime is just stupidly good. And op/end themes ... find them on YouTube if you can. (They get pulled down all the time and other fans re-up). It's so good.

22
Single-Player RPGs / Re: Nier 2 for PS4
« on: March 31, 2017, 12:26:43 AM »
Well, not many games have a story that can surprise you. And while theres nothing really unique about this games story, its the presentation that counts. Its just so well done. Everybody should have that blind playthrough experience for maximum impact.

Spoiler: show
Little things are unique. Like when a creature makes 85 million clones of itself to fight off aliens. I've never heard of anything akin to that in any sci-fi writing. Or when Adam and Eve are brothers instead of husband/wife. That's unique. Or when the purpose of an organization is to perpetuate a lie, and the final phase of that organization's existence is its self-destruction without any entity, even the leader of the organization, knowing that's all in the plans, to give the lie permanency ... I've never heard any story do all that.


So I think it's more than *just* presentation. Though the presentation is an enormous factor, I grant you that.

23
Single-Player RPGs / Re: Nier 2 for PS4
« on: March 29, 2017, 10:51:57 PM »
@Ramza

Maybe put that post in spoilers? Even hinting at anything can ruin the experience.

done, but only because you value NOT ruining the experience in a way that truly inspires me. Blessings to you!

24
Single-Player RPGs / Re: Nier 2 for PS4
« on: March 28, 2017, 10:48:53 PM »
The title does appear in game until part B starts. The whole first playthrough is like a super extended prologue. The real meat of the story doesn't appear until part C.

This is a very odd ball game that messes with so many gameplay conventions.

Exactly. THere aren't devs out there like Yoko Taro (so far as I know), which means there aren't games out there that break expectations in the way Automata (and NieR 1) have done.
Spoiler: show

There's the little stuff, like camera changes from over-the-shoulder to free-form (Kingdom Hearts-ish) to aerial to side-scroller. There's 9S' ability to hack into enemies and control them (most of the hard-to-find lore requires doing this, because the machine he's hacked can then hack *by proxy* on a treasure chest). And then there's the big stuff, like characters' true identities, the "real mission" of YoRHa, and the incredible value of the Pods.

(They got sold short INTENTIONALLY for most of the game -- they seem to be *nothing* compared to Grimoire Weiss. But in the end ... something has happened. Something that is, apparently, inevitable. Life is life. I want to throw in some Jeff Goldblum Jurassic Park Chaos Theory: "nature (machine nature?) found a way.")

25
Single-Player RPGs / Re: Nier 2 for PS4
« on: March 28, 2017, 02:14:16 PM »
Soundtrack is here early

Good Tuesday

wuuuuuut? I did CDJ's most expensive shipping option, mine isn't here yet! *pouty face*

26
Single-Player RPGs / Re: Nier 2 for PS4
« on: March 28, 2017, 04:37:06 AM »
Backstory presented outside of the game.  Mmph.  Well, if you do manage to find it in English, I'd appreciate a pointer.

Yeah. Yoko Taro does that, maybe too much. In this case though, the YoRHa stage play was released *years* before Automata's release. So for Japanese fans, they've had time. :)

Which is why I hope the thing gets subtitled, ASAP.

As for your insights on 2B, thank you. I think I know where you're coming from and ... yes, compared to the original NieR, that might be one of the weaknesses of Automata. Kainé alone was probably one of the most interesting characters in NieR, and there is no single character that lives up to that kind of narrative ... especially when you start Route B in NieR! :)

Spoiler: show
BUT ... short as their subplot may have been, the last pair of twin red-haired androids, Devola and Popola in Automata, might have been one of the greatest things ever. When they pull their swords and run at 9S and you're like "Jesus, not again" (if you played NieR) and then they keep running and take on machines so 9S can hack into the tower ... god I loved that scene.

27
Single-Player RPGs / Re: Nier 2 for PS4
« on: March 27, 2017, 09:38:27 PM »
2B never really strayed from the kuudere type

Thoughts about this and/or challenging this:

Spoiler: show

Remember that scene right after the first mission when 2B's left fist is down by her waist but you see her clench it? And we were all like "ok, there's emotion buried there, wtf is this?"

And then remember at the end of A/B paths, when 2B says "why does it ALWAYS have to end like this?" and then you're all "wtf is always?"

And THEEEEN remember at the end of C/D/E when A2 pulls out the truth on 9S? That 2B's true handle was "2E"? There's a side quest that explains what E-class YoRHa units do: they execute. They're assassins. The game keeps presenting it like 9S is getting paired with 2B to help her, when in fact (as 2B knows all along) she is getting paired with a 9S who keeps having the most recent bits of his memory erased so he never discovers the full truth, because he's THAT good and finding info and piecing things together.

2B breaks her mold, which ... forgive me, but I'm going to drop the Japanese-cliche language of "kuudere" and just go with "emotionless android" -- which is a fairly universal concept. Anyway, 2B breaks her mold. More than once. The end of A/B, and then from that point until her death, she is clearly 'alive' and 'self-actualized,' holding back nothing.


As for A2's backstory ...

Spoiler: show

more than the archives, her story is also buried in the Stage Play "YoRHa" -- which I've been trying to find w/ English subtitles but have failed to find so far. Most of the play is on YouTube, in segments. Of note, it's here you can determine for sure that the Commander, Jackass, Anemone, and A2 all knew each other as they were all part of the Pearl Harbor mission. They all had flower code-names back then. ("Anemone," alongside being a sea creature, is a flower name, so she didn't change hers.)

28
Single-Player RPGs / Re: Nier 2 for PS4
« on: March 24, 2017, 05:12:42 PM »
I should probably have played Automata before reading that though, eh, @Ramza ?

The piece is written with virtually no spoilers. There's only one thing in there that might be thought as such, but it was in the promotional materials for the game for months prior to release.

29
Single-Player RPGs / Re: Nier 2 for PS4
« on: March 23, 2017, 09:26:56 PM »
tooting my own horn...

If Christian theology is interesting to you, even if you don't subscribe to said religion (i.e. -- issues of grace, of what makes "choice" and "autonomy" real things) -- you may appreciate this piece I wrote for gamechurch.com on NieR Automata

http://gamechurch.com/redemption-song-grace-and-suffering-in-nier-automata/

30
Single-Player RPGs / Re: Nier 2 for PS4
« on: March 19, 2017, 10:44:27 PM »
Cool. I look forward to Ending A, provided it has a good final boss.

Get to B.

When you start B you do *not* start from the beginning. You start a bit past the halfway mark. And you ... well, the story changes the entire time. You do all the same stuff, but now you can hear and understand things you didn't hear and understand before. You get Kainé's perspective, essentially.

So just play through to B. It's so totally worth it.

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