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256  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: FINAL FANTASY XIII on: March 16, 2010, 09:57:08 PM
.No shrouds.

Anyone tried their own challenge run yet?

is it weird that I hardly even knew what shrouds were? I mean did i miss some in game tutorial or something??

There is a 1 screen tutorial early on that explains shrouds, it's easy to forget about.
257  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: FINAL FANTASY XIII on: March 15, 2010, 07:06:39 PM
So I decided to start a new challenge run for a day or two until Resonance of Fate hits. Here are the limitations:

No auto-battle.
No shrouds.
No grinding or fighting the same enemy group twice.
No missions during the main game (besides the mandatory Ch 11 ones).
Get 5 stars on every encounter.. preferably as quickly as possible.
I may possibly add no weapon/accessory upgrades, but I'm not sure whether that's necessary or not. In any case I haven't upgraded yet.

Anyone tried their own challenge run yet?
258  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: FINAL FANTASY XIII on: March 13, 2010, 09:06:33 PM
My review of the game:


I've also posted some hints for gamers having trouble with the combat system.

259  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Resonance of Fate Topic on: March 10, 2010, 01:52:45 AM
I'm hauling it through ff13 to be able to play this at launch.

I'm disappointed that the combat is so easily breakable with lv 100 MGs/full scratch damage, but maybe some player defined challenges will do the trick.
260  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Getting psyched for Sakura Wars ~So Long, My Love~ on: March 04, 2010, 05:25:15 PM
I'd say it's possible to beat the games while being an asshole the entire way through, if you're some kind of tactical genius, in which case you probably suck with women anyway.

This is an astonishing, and entirely true, observation. :)

Some geeky guys can get women.

Did anyone figure out if the Wii version is 480p?
261  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Help needed - difficult RPGs? on: March 04, 2010, 12:53:55 AM
EVERY game is difficult with player based challenges.  You can make Heroine Hero hard with the right limitations.

And how the hell can you even GET all the skill points in EX-Hardo modo without spending any money or PP?  PP and the mecha buffs are like the only thing that get you THROUGH the mode.  I mean, shit, some of the bosses that require defeating for the skill point I can't even imagine beating without spending PP on stuff like Combo Attack and plenty of extra $$ for EN for spamming Combo attacks and MOB for dodging their crazy 10k damage attacks.

Like most SRPGs, it's a puzzle, and you need to figure out how to arrange the pieces.  SRW:Z Ex-Hard does the same thing preventing you from spending pp or money.
262  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Help needed - difficult RPGs? on: March 03, 2010, 07:27:45 PM
Somebody help me because I just can't help myself.

I appreciate all the info you've given so far even if you don't agree with me.

Fire Emblem has boss grinding and arenas which can both be abused for EXP.

In any FE with a rank system, if you try that you ruin your rank.

Well, for one I know that you can repeat stages as often as you'd like for carry-over EXP in Rondo of Swords without penalty.

hmm I only said Rondo of Swords was a good SRPG that was unfairly picked on by gamers/reviewers.. among other SRPGs like Front Mission 4.

And I've already explained that this is because RPG's AREN'T every other genre!  I fully understand what you are saying, it's just that what you are saying is wrong.

I don't see why being an RPG excuses it from having a scoring or ranking system.  But if there were a list of traditional RPGs that are very difficult if you don't grind, I'd say SMT Nocturne and The Last Remnant would be near the top.  There are also a couple SRPGs like Front Mission 5 Hard Mode that are very difficult if you don't grind in the simulator, or the aforementioned SRT: OG2 for GBA Ex-Hard all skill points without spending pp/money or save/reload abusing.

So how about some RPGs/SRPGs that have difficult player-based challenges?  Since the thread seems to be a dead end otherwise.
263  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Help needed - difficult RPGs? on: March 02, 2010, 01:30:54 PM
No, you're still not listening.  You're still applying a logic that doesn't apply to RPG's.

You want me to make a special exception for traditional RPGs that doesn't apply to any other genre.  I'd rather the developers do something like in FFXIII with stat caps and/or ranking.

All RPG's, by the very nature of Experience Points and levels EXISTING, -can- have grinding in them.

Games can have limited EXP like Fire Emblem, where the challenge is distributing it efficiently.

If the game has EXP in it, you can grind in it.

You know, I tried to point out the 'without penalty' portion of my previous post, but you seem to still not understand.  There's no traditional RPG that has a successful combination of allowing grinding, ranking which differentiates players of different skill level, and difficulty, that every other genre has successful examples of.  if a game allows grinding it also needs a ranking system to penalize it, just like continuing in an arcade game resets the score to 0.

Quote from: Gen Eric Gui
A LOT of SRPG's work this way, including several that our esteemed list maker has listed in his "official super awesome list".

All of the SRPGs I listed have score/ranking systems that penalize grinding.  If you try to grind in them, you won't get the listed rank.

Quote from: MeshGearFox
You could also theoretically brute force your way through Gradius 5 by running it on an emulator and save stating every five seconds

That's called cheating.

Quote from: MeshGearFox
The comment about "save/reload" abuse is the only thing I take issue with, because I'm an advocate of being able to save everywhere, and I don't think that makes the game easier.

This is mostly an issue of SRPGs/Valkyria Chronicles where random chance is an important part of the mechanics.

I suppose I should have clarified that stat grinding is ok as long as there's a high skill cap, unabuseable scoring/ranking system that penalizes it. There is no traditional RPG that does this that I know of.

Anyway thanks for all the help so far!
264  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Help needed - difficult RPGs? on: March 01, 2010, 04:10:47 PM
Playing them is a matter of dying until you memorize what you need to do in each area and then abusing some trick to complete it.

There's memorization, but they also require a lot of platforming skills on top of that.  In any case they aren't on my list.

You proclaim the Last Remnant to not be hard because of an obscure trick you can pull late-game to grind stats, but then turn around and proclaim that Dragon Quarter is hard even though you can completely destroy the difficulty of the game near the beginning by abusing a facet of the SOL system.

I've never played Dragon Quarter V, I only heard about it from a suggestion in this thread.  I looked into it and the rank system sounded good.. I think it might be one of the only traditional RPGs with a rank system.  Once you mentioned it could be broken or exploited, I took it off.  My criteria is very clear, I have not changed it at all, and you are beating your chest over nothing.

You have to adapt your list to each genre's intricacies, or it's going to be a complete mess (Which it is).

Being able to exploit or negate difficulty through brainless repetition without penalty is a weakness, not an 'intricasy'.  Note that I said 'without penalty', an important distinction.  I didn't want a list of difficult* games, with the * noting that it's not actually difficult if you sit there zombielike raising your big numbers.  And once again you are flinging around unnecessarily angry baseless insults with nothing to back it up, how sad.  I'm disappointed I couldn't find any traditional RPGs, but there are SRPGs and dungeon crawlers to make up for it.

Anyway I like how Baroque sounds and I'll look into it.  I actually like ADOM and it's not that hard to get the normal ending.. the other endings are pretty luck based though.
265  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Help needed - difficult RPGs? on: February 28, 2010, 01:02:15 PM
I thought the DEFINITION of a hard game is one that is difficult to complete.

That's too simple minded.  Any competent analysis of a games difficulty must take into account rank or score, or how easy it is to subvert the difficulty.  Games can be difficult to 'reach the ending screen', difficult to score, both, or niether.

There are several genres that only have one game

All of the major categories have at least two games listed.

"Well I don't really know anything about this genre at all, but here's some games I heard were hard".

I did hours of research into the genres I don't have a lot of hands on experience with, like pinball, puzzle, etc.  Even though I have actually played both of the pinball games I listed at an arcade, my skills were nowhere near enough to get to a wizard mode.  Furthermore, despite being admittedly incomplete, it's the best list of its kind on the internet.  The only other articles or lists you'll find on 'difficult games' are lame top 10 lists by IGN and Screw Attack.

"have to get max rank in Dragon Quarter in two playthroughs" are actually player-defined challenges

Oh well.  I guess I won't have any traditional RPGs on the list then?

I'll grant you that if an arcade game gives you a special bonus for completing it on one token, that's a developer's intended challenge for the player, but if not, that's solely a player's discretion.

Not true.  If you continue in any arcade game, the score is erased to 0 (zero) or you get a failed ranking.  The scoring/ranking system is a developer provided challenge, and continuing leads to a developer imposed punishment (score reset, rank failed).

I find it kind of funny that you've decided that it isn't hard after watching youtube videos of people who've mastered it slamming their way through.

I thought people getting perfect 100 scores on SMW2: Yoshi's Island or getting perfect scores/times on Klonoa's post games levels to be more impressive platforming feats (I've done both of those).  Still I didn't list those because I wasn't sure about them.  Any Contra is tame in comparison to the kind of dexterity and button coordination required in those two challenges, let alone extreme challenges like I Wanna Be the Guy, Kaizo Mario World, or perfect scores on Viewtiful Joe's hardest mode.
266  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Help needed - difficult RPGs? on: February 27, 2010, 04:36:16 PM
Most of the games you list as difficult are only difficult if played in some extraordinary fashion (1cc shmups, all SSS rank in a single playthrough, etc)

Since the list is made of developer defined challenges, not player defined, those are completely legitimate.

As for Dragon Quarter, you can totally grind out that game.

Not if you do it in 2 playthroughs, which is again a developer provided challenge.

relatively speaking they are all incredibly difficult

Relatively speaking, console roguelikes tend to remove the harsher elements like permadeath, hunger, fatigue, and what have you.  You ignored my question as to what made Baroque more difficult than such games.

You completely ignore most genres

You are wrong, most genres are covered in the list.  I left out a few genres that are better suited to multiplayer.

or make bold claims that are completely incorrect and hilariously arrogant

I'm not the one sounding 'hilariously arrogant', I believe that award goes to you.  As for incorrect, you're welcome to message me privately.

you make bold claims in genres you proclaim to not be familiar with (House of the Dead is difficult, Contra is not difficult).

Once again, the list is based on developer provided challenges.  If you want a list based on 'getting to the ending screen no matter how badly you do, how much grinding, etc.' or 'player provided challenges', feel free to write your own.  I've watched plenty of youtube videos of all different versions of Contra and just wasn't impressed compared to the side scrollers I did list.

In fact, it's exactly the same with Nocturne.

I'll admit I've never played Nocturne, in fact I tend to avoid traditional RPGs because they are too easy, but it does seem like one of the most difficult in terms of figuring out the right strategy to take down difficult or optional bosses.  If you think grinding is too effective I'll probably just remove it.
267  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: What on earth is Sega thinking... on: February 27, 2010, 01:39:50 PM
edit: oops on the release date thing

As for 'what they are thinking', I have no clue.  I'm buying both RoF and FFXIII anyway.
268  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Help needed - difficult RPGs? on: February 27, 2010, 01:21:28 PM
Quote from: Gen Eric Gui
Plus, you can totally grind out all the difficulty in Nocturne anyway.

It seems to be one of the most grind-resistant traditional RPGs.

Quote from: Gen Eric Gui
you can ALWAYS grind out the difficulty

I have one RPG so far that isn't like that, Breath of Fire V.  At least if you're playing for rank.

Quote from: Gen Eric Gui
Saying "Oh you can abuse this one tiny thing to mitigate the difficulty of TLR"

It's not a one tiny thing.  Farming that respawnable rare mob lets you grind out a huge skill/stat increase compared to what you'd normally get.  Most grinders make a strategy out of speeding through the early game with low BR just to get to the dragon to start grinding away brainlessly for hours.  Too bad since it's fairly difficult to beat the optional bosses without BR grinding.

Quote from: Gen Eric Gui
just because Nethack might be harder then Baroque doesn't mean Baroque isn't hard.

What makes it harder than any other random watered down console dungeon crawler from chunsoft, etc?

Quote from: jphussey
Your elimination of 7th Saga Makes No Sense to me.

It's one of those games that has imbalanced mechanics, except not in the players favor.  A random enemy popping up and one shotting your party because a developer left an extra '0' in the attack damage table isn't the kind of difficulty I'm looking for.  It's just a poorly made game with a reputation for completely smoking the player for no particular reason.

Quote from: jphussey
Have you tried the Fire Emblem series on Hard?

I'm not sure what you're asking.  Not all Fire Emblem games have multiple difficulty levels, not all of them are named 'Hard', and sometimes the difficulty of a FE game comes from its ranking.  However I would say FE5 SSS rank and FE9 fixed growth mania mode are among the most difficult grind-proof SRPGs out there.  I'd have to discount FE:SD hard mode because the game turns into a joke once you reach chapter 6 and class change those two guys with ridiculous growths into nearly invincible generals.

Quote from: jphussey
Or the "Ogre" series on Hard?

Well there's Tactics Ogre, a SRPG, and Ogre Battle, a RTS/RPG hybrid.  In any case, none of the Ogre games have a 'hard' mode afaik and they aren't particularly difficult games.

Quote from: Gen Eric Gui
Yggdra Union can get brutally difficult, some maps in hard mode

Hard mode on PSP is the same as normal on GBA, which I didn't have a problem with.. although I did use a guide to 'find' all the good items.. don't see how someone would find all of them by chance.  It's kind of silly that a game is more difficult if you don't spend time poking into every square of grass looking for treasure.

Quote from: Gen Eric Gui
Several of the SRT games are purposed to be very difficult

It depends.  SRT games are very open to save/reload abuse, despite having nice things like hard modes and skill points.  The most difficult SRT game to me would be SRT:Z because the EX-Hard mode restricts you from spending PP/money, while SRT:OG does not.  I have beaten SRT:OG 1 and 2 for GBA on Ex-Hard getting all skill points while not spending any PP or money and not save/reload abusing (except the very last 'secret' boss..), but that is a player created challenge.

Anyway I've posted the list of difficult games.  Please look it over and offer your criticism/advice.

269  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Resonance of Fate Topic on: February 21, 2010, 03:26:20 PM
there are 10 levels of difficulty, the max difficulty increases enemy HP/dmg by 5x

unfortunately it seems the game can be easily broken by 'max level 100 machine guns' that do full scratch damage and let you kill 99% of enemies in one or two attacks.. kind of sad
270  Media / Single-Player RPGs / Re: Help needed - difficult RPGs? on: February 18, 2010, 09:30:42 PM
But anyway, I'll toss out a few names most people agree are fairly difficult.

-Most any Shin Megami Tensei game.  Even the Demikids games, meant for children, are fairly difficult.
-Demon's Souls, even though I hardly think of it as an RPG at all.
-The Last Remnant
-Any Roguelike, like Shiren the Wanderer, Baroque, Azure Dreams, etc.

I have already added SMT: Nocturne Hard mode.

I'm not really sure Demon's Souls is an RPG either.  It's more of a clunkily controlled 3rd person action/adventure game.  Most of the difficulty is simple trial and error and learning to look around the corner.  I don't like the thought of spending hours 'farming souls' or w/e.

I thought of The Last Remnant but it's too easy to break the rank system, much like saga games.  Even on the PC version where they fixed some of the abuse, you can still stat/skill grind that one respawnable rare dragon in the marsh area.  Also the whole 'hunt down rares to increase guild rank' is ridiculous.

Modern PC roguelikes - ADOM, Angband, Nethack, Crawl, etc. are more difficult and complex.

I'd say BoFV: Dragon Quarter counts as a pretty F'ing difficult RPG.

I looked into that and it seems to be a good candidate, thanks.

And here is where I always bring up THE 7th SAGA.

Any game with repetitive, grinding, unbalanced, skill-less, or unfair difficulty is out.

The Dark Spire is pretty difficult...a Wizardry "clone" that the developers made punishing on purpose.

Can you explain how it's more difficult than your average dungeon crawler?

i'm curious why no srpg's? those tend to be among the hardest rpg's. especially in the case of something like eternal poison where the amount of exp you can get is limited since you cant grind.

What I meant was that I had no problem finding difficult SRPGs that fit the criteria.  But if you have any suggestions feel free!
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