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Author Topic: Tokitowa - Time and Eternity (third person 2D/3D RPG, imageepoch, PS3) announced  (Read 26318 times)
Der Jermeister
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« Reply #180 on: June 26, 2013, 07:08:01 PM »

Definitely will avoid this one based on the reviews.
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Ashton
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« Reply #181 on: June 26, 2013, 08:02:53 PM »

rpgamer's doesn't tell a prettier tale. I guess the RPGFan review at least confirmes that it is in fact not more enjoyable for men despite what some people suggested.
I feel sorry for the people forced to slog through that mess.

If people suggested that the abysmal gameplay would have somehow magically varied and become not abysmal based on gender, I think their suggestions were faulty to begin with. A bad game is a bad game.

I hated this game and I only played it for 15 minutes at E3. Koshiro's talents were wasted on it.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that a good aspect in one regard makes up for the shitty aspects if the shitty aspects are just too atrocious.

To put this in perspective, someone who watches movies for story and plot might hate Avatar, whereas someone more interested in graphical design, world building, and general art direction may find it more pleasing despite the crap ass story. If that's a bit too abstract, Kingdom Hearts' story sucks ass, but one might say that those who want good gameplay will be less offended by the story than by someone who views games as a storytelling medium.

Not saying that it applies to Time and Eternity, but there it is.
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cj_iwakura
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« Reply #182 on: June 26, 2013, 09:02:38 PM »

I remember my hype going from intrigued to disastrous once impressions started coming out. I liked the art and I liked Imageepoch's handheld titles(Fate/Extra and BRS were enjoyable at worst), but this really looks like a trainwreck in every sense.

Sadly, I think past events have shown NIS' fans are bad review proof.
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« Reply #183 on: June 26, 2013, 10:22:24 PM »

Sadly, I think past events have shown NIS' fans are bad review proof.

To be fair, a lot of niche JRPGs get trashed in reviews by people who clearly just don't like JRPGs.  I can somewhat understand where the whole "to heck with reviews" attitude comes from.  For example, I remember seeing some pretty low scores for Atelier Meruru and yet it's my favorite game of the series (and probably one of my favorite PS3 RPGs).  It's actually a very well made game, with much better balance and progression than the previous PS3 entries in the series, but for some people the moe aesthetic alone is enough reason to hate on it.

But then, Atelier Meruru got some pretty positive reviews too.  There are certainly people who agree with me and really liked the game.  Time and Eternity, on the other hand, has been universally panned and though I haven't played it myself I've watched enough gameplay vids to realize that it probably is genuine crap.

So I guess the lesson is that you have to be smart about reviews and find reviewers with similar tastes.  I really do think that a lot of sites don't give smaller JRPGs a fair shake, or just have them reviewed by people who don't like the genre.  I mean, I don't like sports games and if I had to review a sports game for some reason I would probably give it a lower score than somebody who enjoys the genre.  But is that opinion even relevant to somebody who already knows they like sports games?  I think a game should generally be reviewed by people who like the genre it's in and can compare it to similar games.  But JRPGs seem to be too niche (or just too time-consuming, making them take longer to review) to always get that treatment.

But a lot of people who do like these kind of games have seen games they like getting trashed on and the knee-jerk reaction is to just say to heck with reviewers...
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Der Jermeister
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« Reply #184 on: June 26, 2013, 10:38:12 PM »

I myself tend to experience a fair bit of dissonance with mainstream game reviews, and have liked games that have gotten poor reviews and disliked games that have gotten good reviews.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #185 on: June 26, 2013, 10:50:49 PM »

Even as a reviewer, I've found myself distrusting reviews.  I don't look at reviews at all, especially for a game I may be reviewing, so I can be truly objective.  I was flabbergasted when I saw the flurry of negative reviews surrounding Wild Arms XF.  Were these critics playing a different game than I was?  Wild Arms XF was GOOD!  The stupidest criticism was that "it wasn't like FF Tactics."  Newsflash!  Wild Arms is not Final Fantasy.  It's WILD FREAKIN' ARMS!  And that's the very reason I like Wild Arms.  EDIT: And XF had stellar music.  Did the others not hear it?  It hardly got mentioned in other reviews.

I tend to go "gut feeling" on my reviews.  Sometimes, a game is objectively really good, but doesn't tickle my mojo.  On the other hand, a game might be pretty flawed, but I still love it.  It's like with dating.  Sometimes a girl is fantastic on paper, but there's no chemistry.  or vice versa.  
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 07:21:41 AM by Dincrest » Logged

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« Reply #186 on: June 26, 2013, 10:55:23 PM »

It's good to get a lot of opinions in general, especially from those whose tastes align with yours. And to make sure it's not some fundamentally broken mess like this seemingly is.
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Aeolus
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« Reply #187 on: June 27, 2013, 12:42:32 AM »

I generally don't read reviews. But when I do, I prefer Something Awful.

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« Reply #188 on: June 27, 2013, 01:06:32 AM »

I check reviews here, but am surprised by how often I disagree with them. Lost Odyssey 75%? Shining Force III 70%? Dreamcast PSO 51%?! Everyone has their own individual taste... opinions can't be invalid. Even when they are.
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Taelus
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« Reply #189 on: June 27, 2013, 01:27:06 AM »

I check reviews here, but am surprised by how often I disagree with them. Lost Odyssey 75%? Shining Force III 70%? Dreamcast PSO 51%?! Everyone has their own individual taste... opinions can't be invalid. Even when they are.

One important thing to keep in mind, too, is that even among staff, people have different opinions. If I had reviewed Lost Odyssey or PSO they would have gotten significantly higher scores. It's important when reading reviews to remember that there's a sort of metanarrative to them-- you have the opinions of the authors, but you should also be able to glean some indication of whether or not things in a game are objective just busted by reading several and analyzing trends.

EDIT

And I agree, Neal. Wild ARMs XF is awesome.
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ZshadeZ
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« Reply #190 on: June 27, 2013, 02:49:35 AM »

I check reviews here, but am surprised by how often I disagree with them. Lost Odyssey 75%? Shining Force III 70%? Dreamcast PSO 51%?! Everyone has their own individual taste... opinions can't be invalid. Even when they are.

One important thing to keep in mind, too, is that even among staff, people have different opinions. If I had reviewed Lost Odyssey or PSO they would have gotten significantly higher scores. It's important when reading reviews to remember that there's a sort of metanarrative to them-- you have the opinions of the authors, but you should also be able to glean some indication of whether or not things in a game are objective just busted by reading several and analyzing trends.

EDIT

And I agree, Neal. Wild ARMs XF is awesome.

Oh, I know. I read many on a game before I buy usually, to try and piece together a complete picture of it from many different points of view. Everyone has certain things they like or dislike in the genre, some people say certain games/anime are cliche and awful and no character development and I watch them and fall in love. I was trying to point out in a badly worded way that even on a site dedicated to RPG goodness there's a huge difference in taste.
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Royal
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« Reply #191 on: June 27, 2013, 04:10:16 AM »

38% and it costs 48e. I skip this one and rather invest to incoming Tales of Xillia which will sell for the same price.
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insertnamehere
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« Reply #192 on: June 27, 2013, 05:05:46 AM »

I wonder if this game wanted to be like Ni no Kuni in terms of looking like an anime, it seems tragic with that ambition being wasted.
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Kevadu
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« Reply #193 on: June 27, 2013, 05:21:39 AM »

Ambition without the basic skills to back it up is just empty boasting.

I don't feel like Imageepoch ever really acknowledged how difficult what they were trying to do was.  They didn't have any clever ideas or tricks, they were just like hey, let's do it.  But there's a reason everyone wanting that 2D look these days uses cell-shaded 3D models: it's easier.  Seriously.  Putting 2D characters in a 3D world and not having them look like crap is actually an enormous undertaking, particularly on the art level.  Every frame of every animation of every character/monster/whatever would have to be redone for every possible angle the camera might be at.  Or you can just do what this game does and never change the camera angles, ever.  And have only a single character to animate and only a handful of palette-swapped enemies...

This game suffers from every single problem anyone with a basic understanding of these issues could have predicted.  So either Imageepoch didn't understand the problem and massively overestimated their own ability to tackle it or they just didn't care.  I'm not sure which is worse...
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unsmashable_pumpkin
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« Reply #194 on: June 27, 2013, 07:44:04 AM »

Ambition without the basic skills to back it up is just empty boasting.

Indeed. I think most people found the art and the concept of the game to be at least interesting, but considering how marvellously bad the whole thing seems to have come together, I don't see the point in supporting it solely for the sake of novelty. Maybe someone else will make a more successful attempt at a later date, or perhaps the 2D animation aspect is just not something that realistically can be well utilized in a game of this type of scale.

And while people enjoy bickering over the exact numerical scores of various games, the content of the giant wall of text accompanying them is more important at the end of the day. People mentioned some of the negative mainstream reviews of games like atelier meruru, but I still think you could discern even from those whether it was a game you could enjoy, even if the reviewer obviously did not. Similarly, I have picked up and enjoyed games on the basis of fairly "negative" reviews on this site (such as popolocrois, fragile dreams and alpha protocol). The reviews here tend to go into such detail that it is quite easy to follow the line of reasoning and evaluate whether you would agree with the conclusions based on what you personally value in a game.

I definitely do appreciate the effort put into the reviews. I can't imagine it being particularly fun to be forced to slog through some the worst stuff that comes out here (time and eternity being a prime example). RPGs tend to be quite lengthy, so I appreciate you guys suffering through it so we don't have to. I imagine it must be quite tempting to simply stop playing the games.
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