Mugen Souls

[Lazlowe1984]

I want that sponge.Get nice and sudsy.

[TiamatNM]

Wow they totally removed the bath minigame?  That's weak

Also Zeron that is a huge load of BS.  morally harmful to others?  How?  And child porn?  These are drawings.  No actual child is depicted or harmed in any way.

This is censorship

Do I really need to explain why enabling, encouraging, and rewarding someone to get into the tub with a naked, under-aged individual, who has no family relationship to you, and touch them in any way, shape, or form is considered 'morally wrong' by most modern societies? (Which is what the mini-game does by virtue of being a virtual simulation that gives positive re-enforcement for doing that. And yes; if you'd bother to read my quotations is it porn 'by American law'.)

But since this is the internet...enjoy.

It mentions at least two cases where the 'cartoon images' of lewd acts were considered additional counts of CP along with the other 'real-life' material. With an additional instance at the bottom mentioning the single individual to be solely convicted for possessing 'cartoon' material.

This isn't even me injecting my own personal opinion on the matter and please; don't take my word for it. Free free to pull aside anyone you see on the street. Any race, any religion, any background and ask them. See if a majority agrees with that statement. The 'how' or 'why' doesn't matter; this is one of those things determined by society as a whole.

It's not encouraging you to do this in real life.  Is GTA3 encouraging you to kill and steal from random people in real life?  Get real.  I'm aware of the legality of cartoon porn depicting minors.  It hasn't been totally outlawed or anything so I wonder if you only paid attention to the parts you liked.  It's legally questionable but not outright illegal. 

For my personal belief, I say as long as no one is actually harmed you should be able to draw and sell whatever you want.  Of course, they should still have warning labels and make it so that people who are too young to view such materials should not be able to get them.  If you want to draw a manga about a fetus having a threesome with Ronald Mcdonald and a dinosaur I think you should be allowed to do that. 

[Dincrest]

I'm happy they removed it just because I dislike pointless mini-games. Not that I'll be playing this regardless...

I'm with you there.  I could cry foul over censorship or righteous indignation over the onsen component, but that would be kinda pointless.  I think about Agarest War 2.  The oil massage mini-game (which is probably how the Mugen Souls bathing plays out) was pointless, tacked-on, and felt like an afterthought.  The game would have been just fine without it.  It was as if that "interactive fanservice" was being shoehorned in simply because that's what Idea Factory does.  Kinda like that pointless exorcism scene that begins Exorcist 3.  It was tacked-on at the last minute just so they could call the movie Exorcist. 

I'd have more issues if a big chunk of plot was cut (like the Snow Queen Quest in Revelations: Persona) or overly sanitized (i.e. pirates in Skies of Arcadia drinking fruit juice instead of booze.)  But from what I understand, the plot is in-tact.  People crying foul at the offensive humor leads me to believe that the plot's in-tact and nothing's overly "kiddified."

[Mickeymac92]

If you want to draw a manga about a fetus having a threesome with Ronald Mcdonald and a dinosaur I think you should be allowed to do that.  

Judging from the image you just forced into my mind, I can honestly say I whole-heartedly disagree.

I'd have more issues if a big chunk of plot was cut (like the Snow Queen Quest in Revelations: Persona) or overly sanitized (i.e. pirates in Skies of Arcadia drinking fruit juice instead of booze.)  But from what I understand, the plot is in-tact.  People crying foul at the offensive humor leads me to believe that the plot's in-tact and nothing's overly "kiddified."

This, however, I do agree with. Seems like there was little of value lost here. I was afraid that they'd have changed a lot when they announced that it would have to be censored. From what I've read, this scene was only part that was removed or majorly changed. I think there are far bigger battles worth fighting right now (which are not the ones you specifically mentioned, since those are in the past, btw :P), rather than arguing over a tacked-on mini-game.

[ZeronHitaro]

Wow they totally removed the bath minigame?  That's weak

Also Zeron that is a huge load of BS.  morally harmful to others?  How?  And child porn?  These are drawings.  No actual child is depicted or harmed in any way.

This is censorship

Do I really need to explain why enabling, encouraging, and rewarding someone to get into the tub with a naked, under-aged individual, who has no family relationship to you, and touch them in any way, shape, or form is considered 'morally wrong' by most modern societies? (Which is what the mini-game does by virtue of being a virtual simulation that gives positive re-enforcement for doing that. And yes; if you'd bother to read my quotations is it porn 'by American law'.)

But since this is the internet...enjoy.

It mentions at least two cases where the 'cartoon images' of lewd acts were considered additional counts of CP along with the other 'real-life' material. With an additional instance at the bottom mentioning the single individual to be solely convicted for possessing 'cartoon' material.

This isn't even me injecting my own personal opinion on the matter and please; don't take my word for it. Free free to pull aside anyone you see on the street. Any race, any religion, any background and ask them. See if a majority agrees with that statement. The 'how' or 'why' doesn't matter; this is one of those things determined by society as a whole.

It's not encouraging you to do this in real life.  Is GTA3 encouraging you to kill and steal from random people in real life?  Get real.  I'm aware of the legality of cartoon porn depicting minors.  It hasn't been totally outlawed or anything so I wonder if you only paid attention to the parts you liked.  It's legally questionable but not outright illegal. 

For my personal belief, I say as long as no one is actually harmed you should be able to draw and sell whatever you want.  Of course, they should still have warning labels and make it so that people who are too young to view such materials should not be able to get them.  If you want to draw a manga about a fetus having a threesome with Ronald Mcdonald and a dinosaur I think you should be allowed to do that. 

Somehow I get the feeling we're misjudging exactly where each other stands on the sides of this debate. XD

When I say 'encouraging' I do not mean that with any IRL connotations. I mean that the game, within the game, encourages the player to 'Roleplay' the act. That's why I differentiate between encourage and reward.

Encourage: Hey, jumping off that ledge is a good idea.
Reward: I'll give you $5 to jump off that ledge.

The mini-game is a tool utilized to replicate and act; even if this doesn't equate to real-life re-enactments the existence of such is both pointless and outside the bounds of 'artistic freedom' for reasons I'll get into here in a moment.

As for 'questionable legality' that isn't exactly a defensive point to fall back on. If something is illegal; it's illegal. The only reason people don't get auto-punished for it is because the legal system is run by humans; who make judgements that are, at heart, based on 'whim'.

In a comparable example; take speed limits. The law says you cannot go above X miles an hour in any zone marked as such. It's 'questionably legal' to speed because of the whole 'flow of traffic' mindset. Just like it's 'questionably legal' to have cartoon CP. However if an officer feels so inclined they can ticket you for going that 5 MPH over at anytime they so wish. Why? It's illegal. If an officer catches you with cartoon CP you can be convicted if they so feel like pressing charges. Why? It's illegal.

'Questionable legality' only means there's a percent chance human empathy (or dispassion) for circumstance will create false-negative results where people 'get away with it' only because the authorities did not think it worthwhile to pursue the matter.

In regards to the 'draw and sell' whatever you want; there is a fine line I believe exists that you are assuming I do not place in this debate.

To wit; let me make a list explaining:

-If you want to write a book where CP is somehow part of the plot; you are free to do so.
-If you want to make a movie where CP happens, but is not actually physically performed by the actors involved for the sake of 'realism'; you are free to do so.
-If you want to draw a picture of CP in a country where said imagery is legal (or to use imagery to represent said act in an abstract way that is not obviously apparent unless you analyze the hidden meanings behind the artistic representations), you are free to do so.

(Artistic Freedom Line)

-If you want to create an interactive medium that allows people to perform interactive 'technical' (I have to say 'technical' because by law if it 'looks' underage; it's underage. Never you mind that it could be a goddess, elf, eternal sea-vortex mermaid from space with different age-to-appearance ratios or whatever. Laws are weird like that.) molestation in the CP department in order to achieve a 'positive result' that completely ignores all consequence and sense of reality related to said situation; you may not do this.
-If you want to actually perform an act of CP as a form of 'performance art'; you may not do this.

There is a vast difference between creating a scenario where the action is only passively read/viewed and one where the action is actively replicated and/or encouraged/rewarded. IRL consequences or no. Although personally I think there's no such thing as 'No IRL consequences' in this case. If absolutely nothing else you hurt 'yourself' by utilizing such a tool. After all; would you openly admit to doing such a thing in public? Saying 'Yeah, I had fun this weekend; totally sat in front of a screen bathing the digital representation of a naked kiddo with all sorts of soaps just for lawls.'

There's consequences.

[TiamatNM]

Well I said "questionable" moreso because people are still afraid of going to court for it because the laws aren't very clear but cartoon porn depicting minors is not illegal in itself.  I think they would generally win if they were taken to court but it is easier if they can avoid it entirely by some censorship.  This is why for example, JastUSA (visual novel publisher) always lists the character ages at 18+ even when they clearly aren't.  It's not cause it is illegal to have the correct ages, it's cause they don't want the trouble if someone wants to challenge them on it.  

 "Congress passed the PROTECT Act of 2003 (also dubbed the Amber Alert Law) and it was signed into law on April 30, 2003 by then president George W. Bush.[50] The law enacted 18 U.S.C. § 1466A, which criminalizes material that has "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting", that "depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct and is "obscene" or "depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in ... sexual intercourse ... and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value"."  - from Wikipedia

also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test


Basically I figure as long as you can show that it has artistic value any good judge will allow it if they are following this law.  The problem is that with the law like this it is basically a case by case basis for whether a particular material is legal or not.  

[Dincrest]

I think there are far bigger battles worth fighting right now (which are not the ones you specifically mentioned, since those are in the past, btw :P), rather than arguing over a tacked-on mini-game.

I know.  I was just using those as examples.  Besides, the Snow Queen Quest is perfectly in-tact in the PSP remake... penis demon and all. 

[TiamatNM]

well as a disclaimer I am not even planning on getting this game I just happened in here and disagreed with something Zeron said lol

[Mickeymac92]

I think there are far bigger battles worth fighting right now (which are not the ones you specifically mentioned, since those are in the past, btw :P), rather than arguing over a tacked-on mini-game.

I know.  I was just using those as examples.  Besides, the Snow Queen Quest is perfectly in-tact in the PSP remake... penis demon and all. 

Oi, I was just trying to make sure people knew that those "bigger battles" weren't those specific ones. I probably didn't need to mention that they were in the past, in retrospect. Sometimes covering ones rear is more trouble than its worth. :P

[Eusis]

Well I said "questionable" moreso because people are still afraid of going to court for it because the laws aren't very clear but cartoon porn depicting minors is not illegal in itself.  I think they would generally win if they were taken to court but it is easier if they can avoid it entirely by some censorship.  This is why for example, JastUSA (visual novel publisher) always lists the character ages at 18+ even when they clearly aren't.  It's not cause it is illegal to have the correct ages, it's cause they don't want the trouble if someone wants to challenge them on it.  

 "Congress passed the PROTECT Act of 2003 (also dubbed the Amber Alert Law) and it was signed into law on April 30, 2003 by then president George W. Bush.[50] The law enacted 18 U.S.C. § 1466A, which criminalizes material that has "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting", that "depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct and is "obscene" or "depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in ... sexual intercourse ... and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value"."  - from Wikipedia

also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test


Basically I figure as long as you can show that it has artistic value any good judge will allow it if they are following this law.  The problem is that with the law like this it is basically a case by case basis for whether a particular material is legal or not.  

I think that was actually successfully challenged for cartoon stuff... but there's still the fact there are many that will still try to drag people into court over it, and most naturally don't want to deal with it, plus there's still bad publicity over something like that which serves no point to keep around whether or not it's legal. Going by the ESRB rating description I doubt they did much more than remove interactive parts anyway, which means I'm still put off by it.

[ZeronHitaro]

Basically I figure as long as you can show that it has artistic value any good judge will allow it if they are following this law.  The problem is that with the law like this it is basically a case by case basis for whether a particular material is legal or not. 

Yeah I saw that clause in the wiki section I linked a while back. So I think the final crux of this pretty much boils down to we disagree on whether the mini game has any artistic value. Which I'm totally content to mutually disagree on. Opinions are free to be had. XD
__________

@Eusis: Oh crap on you for mentioning the rating description. XD I had to go read it and now I'm even worse in that uncomfortable on the fence situation.
__________

*sigh* Why is it I can't get a game this generation that appeals to my taste in mechanics without all the extra baggage? ~_~

[Dincrest]

I've been dabbling with Mugen Souls a bit and I wholeheartedly agree with Tooker's review.  The game is amusing and fun, but falls into the classic !F/Compile Heart trap of having too many needlessly obtuse, conflicting, and unnecessary systems for its own good.  Agarest War 2 was a step in the right direction in that regard; it was far more streamlined than your average !F game and was actually rather enjoyable.  

I also agree that the music in Mugen Souls is phenomenal.  I'd have to put it and Dust as my top soundtracks of 2012, thus far at least.

[Alisha]

after reading that review i've decided it might be worth a shot. besides im the type that when gameplay systems get difficult i do online research.

[Tooker]

And now that it's out, you might be able to find some good info, Alisha, which would make a big difference.  That's the "first world problem" of a game reviewer: "I want to find an FAQ for this game, but I'm getting to play it before everyone else..."  That said, I still think that even with good online resources available to you, the game has more elements than it really needs.

[Dincrest]

If you've played an Idea Factory or Compile Heart RPG before, you pretty know what to expect in terms of "everything but the kitchen sink" crammed into the interface.  I think a lot of these things work against each other and although each individual system isn't that complicated, it's the sheer amount of nonsensical things to keep track of make it rough.  And sometimes things are made to be more obtuse than they really are. 

Mugen Souls is fun, but I think Agarest War 2 is the step in the right direction for Idea Factory because it actually has fewer-than-usual interface components as far as Idea Factory games go.  Sure, a bunch more could have been omitted, but it's a start.  I would actually recommend Agarest 2 over Mugen Souls.