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Author Topic: What one RPG would you award 100% to?  (Read 8211 times)
Gen Eric Gui
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« Reply #90 on: April 03, 2012, 09:54:10 AM »

Suikdoden's only use of 3D was on the battle screen backgrounds. It still looks better today (on a sub-32" screen) than many of the games that came out 5-10 years afterwards. The hero/Jowy unite attack is beautiful.

The PS2 Suikodens beg to differ. Especially S3 which barely looked any better than Ephemeral Fantasia and had the clever idea of making AoE spells truly AoE by striking indiscriminately (especially in a game where the main character's True Rune consisted entirely of the Fire Element which differentiated itself entirely on the grounds of being largely AoE (fortunately none of the possible True Fire Rune recipients can use Fire magic very well except for the kid who can't use magic worth of shit in general let alone fire magic)).

Geddoe is actually a totally boss Fire Mage.  He gets like an A in the skill, and he's fast enough to be able to fire off one of the largeer AOE spells before your party actually gets close to the enemy, and it even does enough damage that it usually wipes them out anyway.  Hugo isn't terrible with Lightning Magic either (I THINK a B) so there's no real loss there either.
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Aeolus
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« Reply #91 on: April 03, 2012, 06:10:40 PM »

Suikdoden's only use of 3D was on the battle screen backgrounds. It still looks better today (on a sub-32" screen) than many of the games that came out 5-10 years afterwards. The hero/Jowy unite attack is beautiful.

The PS2 Suikodens beg to differ. Especially S3 which barely looked any better than Ephemeral Fantasia and had the clever idea of making AoE spells truly AoE by striking indiscriminately (especially in a game where the main character's True Rune consisted entirely of the Fire Element which differentiated itself entirely on the grounds of being largely AoE (fortunately none of the possible True Fire Rune recipients can use Fire magic very well except for the kid who can't use magic worth of shit in general let alone fire magic)).

Geddoe is actually a totally boss Fire Mage.  He gets like an A in the skill, and he's fast enough to be able to fire off one of the largeer AOE spells before your party actually gets close to the enemy, and it even does enough damage that it usually wipes them out anyway.  Hugo isn't terrible with Lightning Magic either (I THINK a B) so there's no real loss there either.

True but Geddoe would prefer to stick with S ranked Lightning over A ranking Fire, especially since he gets to have some fun with the True Lightning Rune before choosing to take True Fire or not. Besides him taking Fire over Lightning means that Hugo gets Lightning instead and he's just as bad with that as he is with anything else, and if I had to choose I'd take an awesome True Lightning Rune over a solid True Fire Rune any day, especially with S3's combat system where friendly fire is a problem and bullshit boss fights are everywhere.
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« Reply #92 on: April 03, 2012, 06:18:05 PM »

Actually, Hugo could use magic quite well. He's also an A in Wind magic so you could slap a wind rune on him and he'd be all-around excellent. Chris was the one who had shitty magic (in my game she never even got level 4 MP) but made up for it by being physically a powerhouse.

Also, there was some way of preventing your characters from falling victim to fire magic. I don't know what I did but every time I used it my characters ran to the edge of the field of effect so that they wouldn't get blown away.
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Aeolus
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« Reply #93 on: April 03, 2012, 10:22:45 PM »

Actually, Hugo could use magic quite well. He's also an A in Wind magic so you could slap a wind rune on him and he'd be all-around excellent. Chris was the one who had shitty magic (in my game she never even got level 4 MP) but made up for it by being physically a powerhouse.

Also, there was some way of preventing your characters from falling victim to fire magic. I don't know what I did but every time I used it my characters ran to the edge of the field of effect so that they wouldn't get blown away.

Oh yeah, he did have an A in Wind, but between the three True Rune elements I don't think he goes over a B for Fire. In fact it basically went A for Geddoe, B for Hugo, and C for Chris. Of course it was the True Water Rune that really got screwed over due to only going to Chris and her B rank and her shitty magic stat or Hugo and his nearly worthless D rank.

One of these days I need to play through S3 again. Especially since I've now gone through S1 & 2.
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Raze
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« Reply #94 on: April 04, 2012, 04:39:56 AM »

 I missed Chris's A+/S sword magic when she got a true rune. She never gets that 3rd rune slot, at least not at any reasonable level.
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Themadcow
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« Reply #95 on: April 05, 2012, 05:40:46 AM »

The PS2 Suikodens beg to differ.

Aye, it's a shame they didn't continue with sprite based... but I guess the general feeling at the time was that sprites were unattractive to PS2 gamers. There's probably a stronger market for sprite based games now than there was between 1999-2009.
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Aeolus
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« Reply #96 on: April 05, 2012, 06:25:42 AM »

The PS2 Suikodens beg to differ.

Aye, it's a shame they didn't continue with sprite based... but I guess the general feeling at the time was that sprites were unattractive to PS2 gamers. There's probably a stronger market for sprite based games now than there was between 1999-2009.

Additionally 3D modeling is much easier to create rather than having to draw 2D sprites for everything. Unfortunately you lose a lot of the expressiveness that 2D sprites can perform due to having to remodel and retexture 3D models instead of simply adding an extra couple of sprites for whatever you want to animate.

Plus this was around the time when Konami said fuck it, we've got MGS and Metroidvania, and the series had been on a downward spiral until they finally decided to supplant the whole thing with some bland, bargain bin, knockoffs.

And speaking of, whatever happened to that latest Suki-wannabe? Last I heard, it didn't do too well.
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« Reply #97 on: April 08, 2012, 04:20:09 AM »

And speaking of, whatever happened to that latest Suki-wannabe? Last I heard, it didn't do too well.
It was pretty terrible.

This is coming from someone who actually liked Teirkreis.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #98 on: April 08, 2012, 10:00:56 AM »

Additionally 3D modeling is much easier to create rather than having to draw 2D sprites for everything. Unfortunately you lose a lot of the expressiveness that 2D sprites can perform due to having to remodel and retexture 3D models instead of simply adding an extra couple of sprites for whatever you want to animate.

Er...

1. Additionally 3D modeling is much easier to create rather than having to draw 2D sprites for everything.
2. ...retexture 3D models instead of simply adding an extra couple of sprites for whatever you want to animate.

This is contradictory.
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Aeolus
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« Reply #99 on: April 08, 2012, 11:39:30 PM »

Additionally 3D modeling is much easier to create rather than having to draw 2D sprites for everything. Unfortunately you lose a lot of the expressiveness that 2D sprites can perform due to having to remodel and retexture 3D models instead of simply adding an extra couple of sprites for whatever you want to animate.

Er...

1. Additionally 3D modeling is much easier to create rather than having to draw 2D sprites for everything.
2. ...retexture 3D models instead of simply adding an extra couple of sprites for whatever you want to animate.

This is contradictory.

I must have misspoke because the idea I was trying to convey was intentional (probably shouldn't have used the word retextured there since I meant creating new models). Once you've made a 3D model you can move it around, manipulate it, or distort it easily enough. But you can't add or subtract parts from a particular model. For things like weapons that change in appearance when you equip different ones, you need an entirely new polygon model created and textured. The other thing you do need to do with 3D animations is to create the instructions needed to tell the game how to manipulate that model based upon received input or when a certain action occurs; often referred to as canned animations (for instance leaving your character idle for a minute will trigger the canned animation of an idle pose or action like sweeping away some hair or stretching).

Whereas 2D sprites can't do anything on their own since they're just a static image affixed to a hit detection box. You need to create additional sprites to depict the various phases of movement (extend a leg, plant leg and shift body weight, retract other leg, either halt at default or depict the other leg passing the first leg, extend other leg, plant and shift weight to other leg, retract first leg, halt, repeat, or interrupt to shift to a different action), and each phase and act needs its own sprite and memory address. But sprites are smaller in memory overall and a lot more straight forward to work with even though they can be more difficult to create than 3D models depending on how detailed they are and what you're trying to animate.

An example of what I'm trying to describe would be like when Riou is running around in the mercenary fort at the beginning of Suki 2 cleaning up oil spills. In a the game's code there's a whole set of sprites of Riou moving around with a rag in his hand as well as a couple of additional images of him bending over to wipe the floor that are separate from any other image of him performing a normal action and these images only exist for this one scene; after that they are never intentionally referenced again. Additionally you only need to draw Riou bending down and wiping with the rag, everything else can just be copied from the standard moving around set but edited slightly to include a rag somewhere and assigned to new memory locations for future reference.

For a 3D model version of the same scene you'd have to create a canned animation of Riou bending down and moving his arm a bit, but you'll either see a rag or no rag at all. Most likely it'll be the latter case since in order to have Riou bend down with a rag in his hand he'll either need an additional model of himself with a rag already in his hand and the action will be accompanied by new canned animation and a fade out so that the models can be switched, or a model of a rag needs to be created and made to look like Riou's holding the rag and the rag moves as both Riou moves and as Riou bends down and wipes the floor (both of which can lead to physics engine complications due to trying to bind two different objects together without making them clip into each other, fly apart, or drift into outer space).

In the end 3D models have an advantage in a game like this because all they need is one or two models and a set of instructions apiece rather than a full sheet of sprites for everybody. However, in general, the 3D equivalent of scenes like that will often look lazier, more disconnected, or just simply not exist at all, because the process of making such scenes is much more complicated in a 3D environment than it is in a 2D one where it simply involves adding in just a few more sprites and addresses for them on a sheet already filled with them for that one character.
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