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Author Topic: Is Zelda Skyward Sword really the best Zelda game ever?  (Read 4632 times)
FlamingR1ft
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« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2012, 05:19:00 AM »

The tl;dr of this :goonsay: post is that I just feel like exploration in Zelda games have been offering diminishing returns over time.

Which is what I love about the series and the major thing that made me sad with Skyward Sword.
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« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2012, 02:34:14 PM »

While I haven't finished it yet (still in the third 'Silent Realm'), have to say I'm loving the game. Is it perfect, or the best? No, and I'm not sure that question is fair since it is subjective. Not my favorite. I loved Link to the Past and Minish Cap the most. 

Positive:
-I can say this, I hate games that inflate playtime by giving collection objectives, but I feel compelled to actually nab almost every bug that I see.
-Appreciated the motion controls done well. (although during the 2nd phase of the PirateShip boss battle it was unresponsive)

Negative:
-Fi of course. They should have tweaked her dialogue to say the same thing in a less insulting way. She was too pervasive. But ironically enough, when I hadn't played in a week and forgot the directions that the sleeping Kikwi gave me, I couldn't call up useful information from Fi.

So far, so great. Never played Last Story, but I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. Wait until Darksiders 2. Then we'll talk
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2012, 05:04:05 PM »

Quote
In the Original you had a total of 16 hearts and outside of random heart drops or the occasional fairy only up to two doses of potion to bring that back during a dungeon run.

Zelda 1 was the only one that was actually challenging in terms of combat, though, and placed a lot of emphasis on like, being able to navigate the rooms. Part of this was because you were more limited in terms of health, like you said, but also you just had a much smaller attack radius. I mean look you could attack in one direction. That was it. In the LttP-style games, your sword swing has a lot of reach and you get spin attacks, and the 3D Zeldas have z-targeting.

The things you mentioned about LttP, though, specifically get at why it bugged me so much.

1) Dark World enemies. Yeah, they do a lot more damage. But they aren't really behaving any more /interestingly/ than their light world equivalents. They just hurt a lot more when they get a hit in. Which really isn't that fun to me because in Zelda 1, the enemies behaved differently and took a degree of strategy to manage, whereas in LttP it gets overly reflexy in a game that doesn't really have controls that are conducive to that.

2) I thought that a lot of the optional overworld items were just outright obtuse to get.

3) There was kind of an issue I had with LttP that was addressed a lot in the GBC games but was weirdly absent in the rest of the series -- a lot of the items you found weren't that useful on the map itself, which sort of made exploration less fun. The overworlds in the GBC zeldas were like these big lovely dungeons in their own right.

Anyway, Wind Waker was odd in that, at least one one level, it was one of the most open Zeldas. AFTER the awkward stealth bit, you really can sale to a fucklot of places (whether you have the patience for this is arguable, mind). There's just not much to find though. A bunch of generic floating orc platforms with... nothing. There's not even an interesting collectible sidequest. I LIKED finding skulltulas and gold bugs in OoT in TP. WW had butterfly medallions that didn't seem to serve a purpose?

(I thought that Ultima 8 was actually rather good zelda-like game with rather good exploration but everyone hates Ultima 8 so whatever).
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« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2012, 05:15:47 PM »

motion controls ruined any enjoyment i might of gotten out of this game. so for me its the worst zelda game yet.
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« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2012, 07:49:22 PM »

Anyway, Wind Waker was odd in that, at least one one level, it was one of the most open Zeldas. AFTER the awkward stealth bit, you really can sale to a fucklot of places (whether you have the patience for this is arguable, mind). There's just not much to find though. A bunch of generic floating orc platforms with... nothing. There's not even an interesting collectible sidequest. I LIKED finding skulltulas and gold bugs in OoT in TP. WW had butterfly medallions that didn't seem to serve a purpose?

I believe you had to get to Dragon Roost Island first to actually get the Wind Waker and the melody that controlled the wind's direction, and while you're there you might as well complete the dungeon to pick up the Grappling Hook so that you can actually do stuff beyond sailing around aimlessly.

And that was a problem I had with WW outside of the complete lack of difficulty. Exploration consisted mostly of sailing around. Once you got to an island you might be able to do a couple of things there (provided you're far enough into the game to have the dungeon items necessary to access or accomplish the task) and then you were done with it for the rest of the game. When I first went into that game I was hoping for a couple really large islands that you could sail to that made even the starting island feel small and isolated, and then it turned out that Outset was the biggest non-dungeon island in the game. Sure you get to visit Hyrule, but all that really consisted of was a Castle, a Tower, and the corridor in between.
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« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2012, 08:25:29 PM »

It didn't help that each of the squares on the ocean map was like roughly the size of three biggest field areas from TP combined, and that you moved at a snails pace through them. And IIRC some were absolutely devoid of /anything/. It probably wouldn't have been so bad if there were interesting visuals -- I loved just wandering through the world in SotC, for instance, even though that was sort of emptyish -- but there aren't. It's just endless blue. Everywhere.

See what I find funny, like... it's the perfect game to have a Skies of Arcadia ruin-finding sidequest. That could've been the game's equivalent of golden skulltulas -- finding hidden cool areas in the ocean. But afaik they never do that.
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« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2012, 11:41:39 PM »

I hate Zelda games for throwing more money-rupees than you really have anything to do with.  A real cop-out to this was in Twilight Princess that gave you an expensive suit of armor that made you invincible ...as it drains your money.

I thought Skyward Sword was on to something with the upgrade system, but it turned out to be such a dubious system since, for example, you can upgrade your bow and arrow to do more attack damage, but you only need it for one boss, and most enemies are designed to be killed with the sword anyways.

The stupid ass Beetle got upgrades; one of them was so it could fly faster (a good thing), but the other was so that it could fly longer  ... but anything you needed or could get was obtainable without that "final upgrade".

Bug Net upgrade? Already finished feather catching (omg, walk slowly! It works!), and bug hunting is easy enough.

Bomb bag upgrade?  Bomb plants replenish every 3 seconds.

I almost want the game to pull a Skies of Arcadia... blow money on your hometown -- sure it was superficial, but by god did it feel good!
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 11:43:17 PM by Dice » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2012, 11:44:17 PM »

Anyway, Wind Waker was odd in that, at least one one level, it was one of the most open Zeldas. AFTER the awkward stealth bit, you really can sale to a fucklot of places (whether you have the patience for this is arguable, mind). There's just not much to find though. A bunch of generic floating orc platforms with... nothing. There's not even an interesting collectible sidequest. I LIKED finding skulltulas and gold bugs in OoT in TP. WW had butterfly medallions that didn't seem to serve a purpose?

I believe you had to get to Dragon Roost Island first to actually get the Wind Waker and the melody that controlled the wind's direction, and while you're there you might as well complete the dungeon to pick up the Grappling Hook so that you can actually do stuff beyond sailing around aimlessly.

And that was a problem I had with WW outside of the complete lack of difficulty. Exploration consisted mostly of sailing around. Once you got to an island you might be able to do a couple of things there (provided you're far enough into the game to have the dungeon items necessary to access or accomplish the task) and then you were done with it for the rest of the game. When I first went into that game I was hoping for a couple really large islands that you could sail to that made even the starting island feel small and isolated, and then it turned out that Outset was the biggest non-dungeon island in the game. Sure you get to visit Hyrule, but all that really consisted of was a Castle, a Tower, and the corridor in between.

Ugh. Yeah. I remember a few months before the game had come out, I had heard a rumor that Outset Island was one of the smallest islands in the game. What a shit rumor that turned out to be. If we ever got a land-overworld as big as that ocean, with a lot to explore in it, that would be the greatest Zelda ever.

One thing I also wish WW had kept was the fire and ice dungeons that had been relegated to small caves in the final version, and the dungeon to get the third pearl. I usually enjoy Zelda games more when they have at least 8 dungeons.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 11:46:10 PM by Nel » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2012, 11:33:57 PM »

So, TP is better than SS?
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Eusis
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« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2012, 11:38:56 PM »

So, TP is better than SS?

I think in the end I'll prefer TP over SS, yeah. I like Wind Waker more than both, I think it's tied with Link to the Past as my favorite Zelda.
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Aeolus
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« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2012, 04:51:18 AM »

So, TP is better than SS?

I think in the end I'll prefer TP over SS, yeah. I like Wind Waker more than both, I think it's tied with Link to the Past as my favorite Zelda.

It's kinda hard for me to say as both games had their flaws. SS was more of a proving ground for a new type of control style that I liked even if it wasn't perfect but it suffered from a great number of smaller flaws that almost robbed the Experience from the Zelda Experience; whereas TP tried to do something new and potentially interesting with the plot only to drop the ball and turn itself into a updated OoT clone, like promising us a new villain in Zant who quickly devolved into a goofy Aganhmin wannabe along with all the other dropped plot threads. Where TP's world felt dead and barren, SS's world felt undeveloped and bottled up.

As for inventories I felt that SS definitely had the advantage due to being more streamlined and less "Here's a fun dungeon item. Let's make it completely unusable outside of the dungeon until you run a sidequest to repair it so that you can move a handful of statues and then leave it with all of the other fun but almost impractically useless items.". Though I will admit that SS's sword upgrade curve was ridiculously uneven and bizarre, but even then it still beats out never gonna get any stronger wolf form, plus you could appreciate it more thanks to SS's boss rush and Hero Mode's Skyward Strike carryover. Plus those Medals passing on passives was a good idea but was underutilized (kinda like the Oracle's ring system but with stackable effects instead of only one at a time).

And then there's the challenge which I felt could be split fairly evenly. TP's fights had teeth on them and the challenge cave actually made me use stuff I wouldn't normally use which was a vast improvement over the games that had been coming out prior (although part of the challenge cave's challenge was remembering just how nerfed potions were in this game) but where it really shines was in boss combat. Many boss fights felt fun even if they slavishly adhered to the rule of threes and gave us some memorable ones like well pretty much everybody but the water dungeon's boss. That said I felt SS's scrub fights were better for the most part even if it lacked variety at times. The boss fights on the other hand were on average inferior to TP's boss battles with a couple of exceptions; namely level four's boss, level five's boss (kinda), the third fight against Grighamn, and the final boss fight.

Additionally SS's dungeons were both weaker and fewer in number than TP's but they were also shorter in a more realistic sense versus TP's level 1's wind valley and level 4's how do anybody get into this Colosseum? Though TP did have levels 5 and 6 for its more realistically proportioned dungeons. Though part of this was the fact that most dungeons had to fully showcase their respective items before letting them rust in your inventory for the rest of the game whereas SS had you running around and using shit all over the place to get anywhere.

I believe both games have about the same signal to noise ratio of NPCs in them but SS simply had less of both. It basically comes down to Minda, Malo, and the gang versus Groose, his gang, and Scraper. Though SS's Zelda at least had the decency to actually come out and say that Link was her tool before making her worthless non-sacrifice versus TP's Zelda dropping vague hints to things that'll never come to pass before making her not as worthless until it becomes even more worthless non-sacrifice (she had me going the first time around since the series hadn't pulled something like that before; now I just laugh). Ultimately though TP's Zelda wins simply by virtue of being a boss fight even if she has a void where her nether region is supposed to be.

Additionally both had their stupid realms. TP's Twilight Realm and its glowy bug hunt versus SS's Silent Realm and its glowy drop hunt.

Tl;dr: would be that I'd give points to SS for having a better overall plot, a better inventory, better scrub fights, and better non-dungeon environments and I'd give points to TP for having better enemy variety, better dungeons, a better selection of bosses, a better Zelda, and better overall music. Overall I'd rate them the same since despite TP having more items scoring points under its belt that inventory matter is something I'd dock it for.

(The tl;dr of my tl;dr is that if you like aesthetics TP's the better game. If you like mechanics then SS's the better game. It really comes down to preference on this one.)
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« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2012, 12:09:42 PM »

It is interesting how 'graphics' do not play a great part when deciding which is the best game.
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« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2012, 12:33:19 PM »

So, TP is better than SS?
Tough question. Overall, I'd say that TP does edge out SS. I just liked the world better. SS felt so confined.
Personally, I LIKED that SS had shorter dungeons that you could save in. Good for people like me who can only play in short bursts sometimes. Plus, I get that feeling of satisfaction quicker.
I also liked using the items outside of a single dungeon. Some of them, anyway.
My biggest gripes with SS were the lack of variety in areas to visit, and Fii. It just felt like you were going back and forth to only 3 areas over and over again.
Plus, the music was just "there" most of the time. There were some good tracks, but nothing too memorable.

I remember enjoying Wind Waker more than I thought I would, but having the same gripe as everybody else. Sailing.
Nostalgia clouds my mind on ALTTP. I loved the hell out of it, but can't remember the details. OOT is the same.

They are ALL worth playing. I really do think gamers over think about stuff a bit too much sometimes. There is no perfect game. Don't let the little things trump the overall game. Unless it's Fii. Fii sucks. ; - )

« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 03:03:32 PM by GrimReality » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2012, 02:59:56 PM »

Actually, in a recent replay of TP, the dungeons aren't very long.  Most of the "Zelda difficulty" though is the element of surprise.  So long as you know what's what, I was able to beat dungeons in a little over an hour.

Hardest TP Boss: the mini-boss in Snowpeak....  The dungeon was tough actually, no hearts make it a more cautious trip.  And I loved Yeto and Yeta
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« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2012, 09:15:16 PM »

Nostalgia clouds my mind on ALTTP. I loved the hell out of it, but can't remember the details.

I manage to get a SNES in like 2007 to just play ALttP after all good things I've read about it in magazines and also because I absolutely loved The Wind Waker. And yes, ALttP is still an awesome experience even if the translation is borked in the English version like I've read in some places.

That song from the lost woods? Man I couldn't get enough of that song.
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