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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Author Topic: Atelier Ayesha  (Read 23106 times)
ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2012, 02:58:28 PM »

Uh...the alchemists are extremely useful in combat.  I think they're some of the most powerful characters in battle.  Yeah they're useful because of their alchemy toys, but so what?  That's like criticizing a mage for only being useful for magic...

If they want to make another Ar Tonelico game just make one; stop forcing that series' mechanic into Atelier.

I don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about there...

That's not really any good excuse. Tabletop RPGs and MMOs have moved past this problem long prior. D&D/Pathfinder mages pretty much pop a crossbow and hang back from the front lines, putting out useful damage even when not relying on their spells. MMO mage-types usually have 'wands' ala WoW-style which allow for them to still general reasonable damage at lower levels when the MP runs dry (or you just want to conserve it).

PS3 general Atelier 'mages', for some reason beyond comprehension, feel the need to stand in the middle of combat with the bruisers to become targets and attack using extremely week melee 'bops'. Their two strong points are quite irrelevant until late game. Items you have to waste time and resources making; and usually your jobs or requests will demand you fork these over as they provide high gold rewards, unless you're playing New Game +. AoE Special attacks don't start coming into their own until your alchemist has spent a fair amount of time being little more than a liability for the other characters in combat.
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Dice pretty much has the gist of it. The PS3 Atelier games pretty much clone Ar Tonelico's system of forcing the stronger character's to protect the singular weak one. However in something I never thought possible the Atelier games have less of a leg to stand on here. In Ar Tonelico, yes the Reyvatiels were generally weaker but you can argue their need from protection is adequately explained by world lore. They were most likely genetically engineered to be physically weaker (assuming Mir's backstory is clue enough; humans were dicks to Reyvatiels from Day 1), and their songs require constant casting with no interruption to reach peak power. (And the enemies have enough common sense to see a big ball of death being built up and go 'Hey; I should probably do something about that.)

What's the excuse for Atelier requiring this? 'I'm a girly-girl; therefore am weak and need protecting.' I have yet to see a male alchemist who fits this to even begin counter-pointing. And it really feels they're forcing that excuse down our throats as a reason to clone the basic AT-battle framework for whatever reason.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 03:03:14 PM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
Kevadu
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« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2012, 03:14:49 PM »

I have to completely disagree on all points.

Your D&D/Pathfinder example is ridiculous.  Have you ever played D&D?  Yes mages have weapons besides their spells, but the damage-dealing potential isn't even the same order of magnitude.  If anything they're worse than an Atelier alchemist fighting with physical attacks.  And wands...wands essentially are alchemy items...

The 'stand in the middle of combat' thing is exactly what pretty much every JRPG does (which Ar Tonelico being one notable exception...so I don't know why you think it's similar to Ar Tonelico...).

They're strengths are completely relevant the entire game.  I never had trouble keeping spare alchemy items in stock, without needing New Game+.  Particular in Totori, where combat was far more relevant than Rorona.  Totori was my main damage-dealer even early on.

Finally, I think you are exaggerating how 'weak' the alchemists are far too much.  Yes their stats are lower, but not by that much.  They can still take hits.  It's nothing like Ar Tonelico.  It's much, much more like the standard mage type you will find in any other JRPG.

As far as there not being any male alchemists who fit that archetype, did you play Atelier Iris?  Klein was pretty useless without alchemy (though again, with it he was probably the best damage-dealer in the game).

So yeah, I literally can't agree with a single thing you said.
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ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2012, 03:26:31 PM »

There's a reason I put the quantifier 'PS3 Atelier' in there twice. :-P I'm criticizing the Arland universe; not Atelier as a whole. That aside; I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure these universes aren't linked. --- of Arland games haven't had any canonical ties to the PS2 era Ateliers. So as such their status quos can't be directly compared; whereas I compare Rorona to Totori (and eventually Meruru) because it specially states these are shared worlds.

Yes I have played D&D and Pathfinder. Standard Crossbow damage is still better proportionally than Rorona's or Totori's standard attack early game. Even more so in Pathfinder (which is basically D&D 3.75) with the addition of firearms; and we're not even going to get into how the literal 'Alchemist' class in that game pretty much does what an Atelier alchemist does only it doesn't need someone tapping R1 every time a furry hamster looks at it.

It's pretty much Ar Tonelico downgraded. Your 'protect me' characters both take about 3-5 direct hits before death, about 1/3rd as much as your other 'protectors'. The only difference is unlike the Reyvatiels, the Alchemists lack the common sense to step back away from this. Most other JRPGs do this yes; but not since the days of NES 'designated White Mage' have that many of them intentionally forced you to use a character that is intentionally hamstrung.

My primary issue is their motivations/design choices pretty much stink of this:

"Hmm, you remember that old Reyvatiel-protection system? Let's save some time and pretty much copy/paste it into here."
"But wait; in that universe we actually had a reason for giving the players a character who couldn't protect herself worth beans. How're we going to pass it off here?"
"...hmm. I've got it! She's a frail, weak, little girl!"
"That's brilliant! So much so let's do it three times over!"
________

Ah well; a point to disagree on I suppose. XD
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 03:33:47 PM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
Kevadu
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« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2012, 05:26:21 PM »

I feel like we're arguing using two completely different sets of facts or something...

My alchemists typically have between 60-100% the HP of the other characters (there's a big range because there are big differences between supporting characters in that regard...) and take maybe 10-15% more damage per hit.  Meanwhile, their regular attacks do 1/3 to 1/2 the damage of the other characters (which is a heck of a lot better than a D&D mage does with a crossbow...if you're not taking into account attack bonuses and AC then that's a totally invalid comparison, since in D&D rules not hitting a significant fraction of the time is normal, and a major part of the reason to be a fighter type is because you will hit a lot more often).  Weaker?  Sure.  Anything like the dramatic difference in Ar Tonelico?  Not even close.  Reyvateils are like paper without their protects.  They'll be done in even with a couple weak attacks.  Atelier alchemists are more light slightly below-average fighters...

I have to wonder how you're equipping your alchemists if they die so easily in your games.  Equipment in Atelier is strictly additive (your attack power is just base+bonus from your equipment, etc.), so having good equipment makes a huge difference, especially for characters with lower base stats.  In fact it's not really that hard to have your Alchemists dishing out more damage and taking more hits than your other characters.  In Totori there's even a platinum ingot you can buy early in the game--long before you would normally be able to make one--if you just save up enough money.  Make a weapon for Rorona (as soon as you get her) with it and she can pretty much kill any regular enemy you encounter at that point in the game with one regular attack.  But her attacks are area effect, which pretty much makes her unstoppable with just regular attacks.  No that's not a typical thing to do but it's an example of something you can do and it's really not that hard if you make it a goal.  Managing equipment is as important (maybe more important) than leveling up or making alchemy items in these games, so if you're not doing it then you're not playing the game right.  Especially since equipment is an investment.  Making better equipment makes your characters stronger which makes battles faster which actually gives you more time in the long run.

Ar Tonelico takes an old idea to an extreme.  The Atelier games are nowhere near that extreme.  In fact I think they're pretty mild examples of the old idea.  Calling it "Ar Tonelico downgraded" is completely silly.  That's like calling a propeller plane a downgraded jet...when the propeller plane came first.
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ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2012, 05:37:19 PM »

I feel like we're arguing using two completely different sets of facts or something...

It's possible. Bear in mind two factors; admittedly one being that it is a possibility that I just suck at this type of game sometimes and two is that I play a lot slower than most people due to a weird schedule. So I might just be remembering the early game weakness before getting 'proper' equipment as dragging on for far longer than it did for you.

After reading over your post I think a primary problem I might be having is I focus far more on getting the jobs done right away and focusing on equipment as the absolute last thing. Usually not even 'optimizing' in any sense of the word.
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Tomara
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« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2012, 07:02:37 AM »

It would be nice to see a different type of main character though. Maybe someone older, like an adventurer making a career switch.
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Cyril
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« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2012, 11:35:20 AM »

Annie did that.  She only became an Alchemist because she was, literally, dragged from her house and forced into it.  And even then she only became one so she could marry the Prince.  Not because she loved the Prince, but because he was rich and would make her set for life with his money.   She was lazy and did not particularly care about the art until later.
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Dice
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« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2012, 12:33:44 PM »

It would be nice to see a different type of main character though. Maybe someone older, like an adventurer making a career switch.

Yeah, all of them lately look like a gust of wind could blow them down.
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« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2012, 03:31:20 PM »

Annie did that.  She only became an Alchemist because she was, literally, dragged from her house and forced into it.  And even then she only became one so she could marry the Prince.  Not because she loved the Prince, but because he was rich and would make her set for life with his money.   She was lazy and did not particularly care about the art until later.

I liked Annie, but she's still one of those young (frail) girls. It's not that I dislike them or anything, but I wouldn't mind something different. Having a young man as a main character again could be fun. Or maybe a woman in her twenties. Someone a bit more mature, like you'd see in the early Atelier games. But I guess that doesn't appeal to the avarage otaku...
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Cyril
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« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2012, 03:47:30 PM »

Given the rather bored (I wouldn't quite say "negative," but certainly "unimpressed") reaction even Japan had to loli Rorona from Meruru in general, I don't think they would be too averse to an older character.  Totori definitely got Rorona's maturity right in that regard.

I think there's a lot they can do with the female characters, but they're afraid to venture out too far- and quite honestly, given the state of Japan's market, I don't entirely blame them.  Whether or not you realize it, there was a huge shitstorm when the Iris games were released.  At least they seemed to have learned their lesson from AT3 in that overt sexuality doesn't necessarily make a better game.  Having a character who needs to be protected isn't necessarily a bad thing, given Alchemists for the most part aren't fighters, they're crafters.  For me, the issue is that, for the most part, they all have relatively similar personalities despite their quirks.  

But Iris from Iris 3 is a lot like what you seem to be looking for, yes?
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Maxximum
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« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2012, 04:58:08 PM »

This is a NIS game right? I could never really warm up to their style. Something about their games just rubs me the wrong way.
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Eusis
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« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2012, 05:12:48 PM »

This is a NIS game right? I could never really warm up to their style. Something about their games just rubs me the wrong way.

Gust, though it's always NIS that publishes their games here.
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« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2012, 06:37:40 PM »

I'm psyched about this game. I'm still catching up on the Arland trilogy, but I've loved *almost* everything this series has put forth. Looking back, outside the DS titles, Iris 3 was probably the weakest game in the franchise.

Now if only NISA would give us the Judie and Viorate PSP games...
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« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2012, 07:10:04 PM »

Too late at this point, I'm sure. We haven't even heard about Makai Kingdom and that's a shoe-in for at least a quick, easy DD exclusive.
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Cyril
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« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2012, 10:54:38 PM »

Also on RPGFan's front page.

http://andriasang.com/con0nv/atelier_ayesha_screens/

Tons of new screens and info today.

I have to hand it to GUST, their character models are getting very impressive.  Regina's (red-head) model looks incredibly similar to her art.  The issue more now is the longer hair modeling, and lack of animation, but that's always a problem. Not all games can do it as well as Alice did - nor do I expect them to.  The 3D backgrounds are cleaner and more detailed as well.  I think, no matter how you feel about the gameplay in the series, there's no doubt that GUST has graphically been improving non-stop.  Very impressive for a company of only 30 people split into multiple projects.

Keithgrif is pretty nice as well, but we'll see how he compares to Gio.

Very curious to see how Siliconera's mention of the lack of time limit works here, because I am seeing a calendar in the corner. Possibly they've simply removed it while changing areas?  That alone would make it much less strict.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 11:08:22 PM by Cyril » Logged
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