Leading Women? (A Dicey-Rant Topic?!)

[dyeager]

When a woman is 6 ft 4 inches tall, 235 lbs, and looks sort of like Bill Goldberg in terms of physique, I'll accept women as action heroes. Til then, they can be lead roles in anything, doesn't mean I'll take them seriously. I didn't take lightning seriously, nor did I take the bride in kill bill seriously. Doesn't mean the movie or game suffered because of it in my opinion, it's just like all these jrpg heroes. 18 year old scrawny kid saves the world my ass, I could make a better hero. Where's the 7ft 300lb Sylvester Stallone looking mother fucking hero?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1506999/

All I know is I'm pretty sure Gina Carano, who I saw fight in MMA before she became a movie star, could kill 90% of the people on this message board before we even knew what was happening.

[Agent D.]

She was an american gladiator, and honestly speaking, she's trained to be a fighter. Put her next to Frank Shamrock and i bet he fucks her up. Not to brag, but I don't put much stock into mma fighters either. Put 2-3 big guys in front of a mixed martial artist and no amount of triangle holds will stop all of them. Put them in front of someone like Big Show from the wwe and he probably has a field day with them. Gina Carano isn't even that big, I bet half the guys here could in fact kick her ass. Maybe even half the girls. I bet Dice could, she's an angry canadian.

[Pmayo]

So, if you've at all been looking at film reviews, Pixar's Brave is up on most major sites.

A lot of reviews, "average" being the most common and the median. But a lot saying this is definitely not Pixar's best, and it's extraordinary likeness to another cartoon feature: Brother Bear.

More than that, though. I'm stunned at the amount of sexist commentary from idiot reaction posts that state a reason for the film's lack of "pow" is its female lead. Even if FF13 is a stink-bomb, you see much fan postings and admiration (or certainly lack of any real negative feedback), it feels like a lot of people like Lightning for being quite the action heroine.  Kill Bill is probably one of few female-action flicks done extremely right (and on the other end, Suckerpunch sat really poorly with another lot).

I saw the same for some idiot gabbing about Legend of Korra who didn't like, specifically, a "female" lead where he [and to top it off] had an forum icon of Saber from the anime series, Fate.

Sorry, I'm going in a bit of a tangent here, but a topic I think would be interesting to pipe up on and it sorta hurt to see some neanderthal poo-poo women in a lead role.  But what are your thoughts?

It seems women are having trouble getting out of a type casted role of being the more dainty and delicate type, like the hit show Girls still kind of hitting common ideas and tropes for women.  But no matter what, they seem to have trouble stepping into the limelight.  Then in another vein of Hollywood Ageism, Steve Carrel (a man of almost 50) is flirting with 20-something Keira Knightley in Seeking a Friend at the End of World -- how can [older] women compete? 

Needly to say, I'm sorry if this comes off a bit bias, and no, I'm not going to be standing outside of Parliament, burning my bra -- but that's not to say it doesn't bug me, and it sometimes feel like women keep pushing their own stereotypes that make it hard to rise above it.  Things have gotten better, but it doesn't look like things will get much better from this point, at least, not anytime soon.

(haha, I also kinda feel like I'm preaching to a den of wolves, whom, besides me and a few other ladies here, really are the "little guys" in this).

Are reviews really throwing blame on the movie for its female lead? Granted I only skimmed the meta critic reviews, but I did not see a ton of that. Though I believe you, and think thats rather bizarre. Film critics, though not films themselves, seem to be pretty socially conscious about that stuff, a lot more then game reviewers, and games, thats for sure. Pixars recent decline makes me kind of sad though. They where truly on a role with Up and Toy Story 3. Cars 2 was terrible, and Brave, according to reviews seems average.


Also I don't get the show Girls at all. I have seen it several times, and the characters are not even remotely relatable. I mean that lead characters boyfriend is just a horrid person, it makes no sense why she would give him the time of day, and most of the other characters just seem to be stereotypes. Jude apatow made that right? does not have the wit or charm of any of his other stuff.

This is a long drawn out way of me saying, I 100% agree with you dice

[dyeager]

She was an american gladiator, and honestly speaking, she's trained to be a fighter. Put her next to Frank Shamrock and i bet he fucks her up. Not to brag, but I don't put much stock into mma fighters either. Put 2-3 big guys in front of a mixed martial artist and no amount of triangle holds will stop all of them. Put them in front of someone like Big Show from the wwe and he probably has a field day with them. Gina Carano isn't even that big, I bet half the guys here could in fact kick her ass. Maybe even half the girls. I bet Dice could, she's an angry canadian.

If you say so. I'm not about to debate the merits of fighting styles. I was merely suggesting she was perfectly believable as an action hero in Haywire without the build you are saying is necessary. Whether she can kick our ass or not (spoiler: she can) really has nothing to do with your previous statement.

Also, I think they tried what you were talking about before - putting big guys in front of mixed martial artists. It was called no holds barred fighting from the very early UFC days, and the smaller "triangle guy" won an awful lot while the big guys ended up with a lot of broken limbs. Your boy Frank Shamrock lost to a lot of "triangle guys" during his career, including a few broken bone submissions in there... but that sort of gets away from the main topic here, which is female leads. :-)

[Yoda]

When a woman is 6 ft 4 inches tall, 235 lbs, and looks sort of like Bill Goldberg in terms of physique, I'll accept women as action heroes. Til then, they can be lead roles in anything, doesn't mean I'll take them seriously. I didn't take lightning seriously, nor did I take the bride in kill bill seriously. Doesn't mean the movie or game suffered because of it in my opinion, it's just like all these jrpg heroes. 18 year old scrawny kid saves the world my ass, I could make a better hero. Where's the 7ft 300lb Sylvester Stallone looking mother fucking hero?

What does size have to do anything with it? I dated a petite chick that could literally squat down and wrap her arms around my waist/legs and pick me up. I'm not a big guy really but i'm not a toothpick either. Point is, small packages can be tough.

[Starmongoose]

Besides the sheer fucking cartoonishness of Kill Bill, which is intended, what makes the Bride an unbelievable action hero? She wasn't super strong, she was fast, knew martial arts and was a weapons expert. A 7ft 300lb Sylvester Stallone looking guy can still get killed from a stabbing.
 

[Akanbe-]

She was an american gladiator, and honestly speaking, she's trained to be a fighter. Put her next to Frank Shamrock and i bet he fucks her up. Not to brag, but I don't put much stock into mma fighters either. Put 2-3 big guys in front of a mixed martial artist and no amount of triangle holds will stop all of them. Put them in front of someone like Big Show from the wwe and he probably has a field day with them. Gina Carano isn't even that big, I bet half the guys here could in fact kick her ass. Maybe even half the girls. I bet Dice could, she's an angry canadian.

Also, I think they tried what you were talking about before - putting big guys in front of mixed martial artists. It was called no holds barred fighting from the very early UFC days, and the smaller "triangle guy" won an awful lot while the big guys ended up with a lot of broken limbs. Your boy Frank Shamrock lost to a lot of "triangle guys" during his career, including a few broken bone submissions in there... but that sort of gets away from the main topic here, which is female leads. :-)

Kimbo Slice's career says it all.  He got his ass beat hard in actual MMA despite being a big street guy.  I heard he trained and eventually came back, but never heard what happened.

Obviously weight is a huge factor too.  I could see what Agent D is saying if you were comparing a MMA Featherweight Class vs Big Show. 

it's still...troublesome that it's so easy to make fun of women, for just the same easily peg them as not as good as men.
I guess I'm troubled to think that any good person is *that* narrow and small in their thinking, or to think its right to some extent.  I realize men and women are better at things than others, but ultimately the world always works to put women in 2nd for many, many, many ...centuries.

The link is kind of interesting.  I kind of see where he's coming from.  I've only seen 2 female comedians who I genuinely thought were funny - Chelsea Handler and Lisa Landry.  Of course, YMMV but those two were the only ones who I really thought were funny.

As for leading ladies in vidya games, I like them.  It is a shame though that there aren't more good leading/semi-leading women that aren't complete cliches.

[Akanbe-]

Point is, small packages can be tough.

I'm sorry to hear that Yoda.

[Yoda]

Point is, small packages can be tough.

I'm sorry to hear that Yoda.

[Agent D.]

I realize that this topic is one of those topics where my opinion is going to be offensive, no matter how I sugarcoat it. I don't want to offend anyone, but it's going to happen if I defend my ideas. Instead, I opt to bow out and accept any and all criticizms that will be throw at me for being a bitch.

[MeshGearFox]

[Daggerstrike]

I saw the title of the thread and thought it was about showing a woman where to go...then I realized they shouldn't be out of the kitchen to go anywhere unless it's the bedroom, but she already knows where that is so it she wouldn't need to be lead anywhere.

[Aeolus]

While I haven't seen the movie yet, I have seen the trailers and each and every one of them seems to paint the same problematic picture. The movie's main conflict, the immediate struggle is in the main character's overcoming of that bothersome female trait that she's been saddled with. Whether or not there's some kind of plot beyond Mary Sue trying to prove how awesome she is despite that whole 'she' issue isn't something that has been shown. Of course there's the implication that there will be a price to be paid as well (and understandably this has also been left vague for dramatic reveal and because why would you spend $10 on something that you're already aware of) but there are many prices she could pay from nobody remembering her to losing her good looks.

This movie kinda emphasizes the problem a lot of female leads suffer from in that they're too busy overcoming the fact that 'They're a grrl?' to bother with dealing with anything else. Maybe there's some lame villain who's too busy being creepy and ineffectual to be even vaguely threatening to anything other than the main female's clothes, or maybe there's an actually threatening villain who of course gets left to the male lead to do battle while the female lead gets to help at the right moment in a 'making the Hail Mary pass to the male lead who then scores the touchdown for her' sort of way.

[ZeronHitaro]

Not only for being a grievance but for thinking a 7-ft man is going to stick it in my barely legal and half-sized twig of a sister.

Hoo boy, time for me to step in it. >.<

Keep in mind as a precursor; this isn't meant to come off as preaching, finger-wagging, or trying to lessen your position (in general I actually agree with you on most points); but rather to address something I feel is important to bring into the mix in the summary of one question-

Why do you expect me to care about your problems with cultural misogyny when you're pro-actively engaging in cultural misandry?

Thinking men whom engage with a member of the opposite sex in any form of non-platonic relationship have that particular goal in mind is just as prevalent and just as damaging to the gender as the 'women are dainty', 'women must be feminine', 'women can't play strong roles' cliche due to pretty much going hand in hand with 'men lack common sense' and 'men are all pathological liars'. I'm as frustrated with that one as you seem to be with the latter.

My ultimate point in context of the overall discussion with this is to bring in the statement that I don't think these things have so much to do with a culture not getting past a concept as it is both sides biasing each other and finding ways to pot shot the other where it stings. Expecting it to end or evolve is believing far more than I do that humanity has a greater sense of maturity. How many centuries did it take for us to get past the notion that one human isn't another property just because of a few degrees of pigmentation difference?

[Agent D.]

Sexism...

The reason god gave us two hands.