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Subject: Persona 3: FES
Prize: $20 eShop, PSN or Steam code
Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Author Topic: Leading Women? (A Dicey-Rant Topic?!)  (Read 2999 times)
Dincrest
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« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2012, 07:59:29 AM »

This game is relevant to this thread: http://ahatestory.com/

I reviewed it for the site attached to these forums too!
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Lucca
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« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2012, 12:02:06 PM »

This game is relevant to this thread: http://ahatestory.com/

I reviewed it for the site attached to these forums too!

Oh gosh, I love that game. Yeah, play this. It's only 5 bucks, and it's totally relevant.

EDIT: Oops, it's 10. STILL WORTH IT.
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Ashton
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« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2012, 05:17:19 PM »

Almost everything she does is for her sister. :|

That's where you're wrong. Lightning is only concerned about her own happiness. She isn't happy if Serah's happiness isn't on her own terms. There's a world difference between genuinely caring and hoping your family members are happy and taken care of and just being a tremendous douchebag who wants your family members' happiness to be something you have to accept before they're allowed the right to it.

Also, Snow might have been a tremendous poser, but he's a genuinely great guy (in the context of the story, not in our view). Any parent would be happy their daughter has a boyfriend who cares so deeply and so passionately about her happiness and well-being.

You are thinking this too much... I think.
Not in the least. There's a consistent culture of gender intolerance (both ways), and it really irritates me when people who claim they are 'equality advocates' actually actively pursue the destruction and subjugation of another group. Not that I'm accusing anyone here of it, of course; it's just that I've met more than one female/LBGT/whatever rights activist who claims they are 'equality advocates' then throw racial/gender/sexual orientation epithets at me when I disagree with them on their extremist behavior. Think I'm immune? Think again.

True equality, which is what is being put under the microscope here, should be pursued with the intent that all people are equal but different. There is no shame in making fun and deconstructing the various stereotypes inherent to each group (Russell Peters is one of my favorite comedians for this), but the instant you claim to be for equal rights, or make an equal rights argument, I am going to put everything you say under intense scrutiny. I am honestly and seriously tired of radical groups pretending to be equality activists and undermining, if not actively destroying, the efforts of those of us who actually WANT a future where everyone is equal.
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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2012, 05:29:51 PM »

I don't really watch Pixar movies.
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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2012, 06:25:04 PM »

I can think of quite a few leading ladies in games. Lara Croft, Samus, Blood Rayne, Jill Valentine, Claire Redfield, Bayonetta. These are just off the top of my head.
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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2012, 07:48:55 PM »

i love lightning but im sure thats no surprise however i actually see lots of fan rage torwards her especially on gamefaqs. i always assumed its because some boys cant deal with a strong female character. but i grew up with strong woman in my family.
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Eusis
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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2012, 09:30:21 PM »

i love lightning but im sure thats no surprise however i actually see lots of fan rage torwards her especially on gamefaqs. i always assumed its because some boys cant deal with a strong female character. but i grew up with strong woman in my family.

Ash DOES make a good point though, if she were a man she'd still seem like an absurd asshole punching Snow.

Then again, I'd probably laugh either way, so maybe that's why I have a more positive opinion about her. Maybe Snow just has something akin to a Flanders effect, where he really isn't a bad guy when you break it all down (well, at least before they turned Flanders into an insane fundamentalist), but annoys or outright angers everyone anyway.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 09:35:28 PM by Eusis » Logged
GrimReality
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« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2012, 09:51:45 PM »

I don't really watch Pixar movies.
Wow, man. Sucks to be you. You've missed some damn good movies.
I'm pretty sure the topic wasn't just about whether or not you planned on seeing Brave.
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Ashton
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« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2012, 10:05:09 PM »

i love lightning but im sure thats no surprise however i actually see lots of fan rage torwards her especially on gamefaqs. i always assumed its because some boys cant deal with a strong female character. but i grew up with strong woman in my family.
Let me pose a question, Alisha.

Should boys look up to men who are needlessly violent and engage in borderline assault on the opposite gender? If not, why, then, should girls look up to violent and needlessly aggressive women as role models?

Can't a person be strong without resorting to violence, antagonism, and aggression? Or is that all people understand these days when it comes to role models?
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Starmongoose
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« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2012, 10:24:29 PM »

You know who I always liked? Yuna.

Strip away all those fluffy cheesy JRPG bits of dialogue and leave just her intentions, she was a pretty strong female lead. On a mission of self-sacrifice while also keeping her dignity and upholding her moral convictions.

I dunno, others might disagree with me on that one.
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« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2012, 02:07:52 AM »

I can think of quite a few leading ladies in games. Lara Croft, Samus, Blood Rayne, Jill Valentine, Claire Redfield, Bayonetta. These are just off the top of my head.

Of all of those I'd say that Bayonetta the least awful due to being pure T&A power cranked up to 11 (granted Bayonetta runs on enough rule of cool fuel to compensate but that just means she's as effective as DMC's Dante but with tits), but the others listed in your post aside from Samus are so generic that you might as well throw in Lightning Warrior Raidy's and the Valis series's main characters along with everybody but the trap and the kid from Queen's Blade on that list too (for reference the first example is a porn game, the second degenerated into straight porn, and the third is the fetish fuel mecca) because aside from actually showing the naughty bits they're basically just as meaningful and well developed as Lara Croft, Blood Rayne, and the Resievil chicks. However, at least none of them are as bad as Samus because when you see the massive misogyny behind the series being laid bare in Other M that you have to wonder just how much agency was lost when something swooped in for a save be it The Baby, random Chozo Ghosts, Adam, or otherwise. Basically Samus Aran is just a terrible female character, the rest exist because sometimes gamers just want to watch females get impaled on spikes, crushed by walls, devoured, ect.

For the sake of discussion, the best female leads I've seen in a video game thus far is Alis from Phantasy Star 1 (and I am greatly amused by the fact that no one before has mentioned her). Mostly because she's just like any other JRPG lead in that her party members don't overshadow her and that she constantly maintains a relevant role in the party by either being an early game Jill-of-all-trades and eventually evolving into the best tank/single target DPS of the party. But she's even better than that due to the fact that she's in a SMS game that doesn't have the room for endless speeches about the power of love and friendship or how hard work and determination are more important than your holy bloodline, royal heritage, super sayin' magic hax powers, or the prophesies stating that you specifically will save the day; nor does she have the very fundamentals of the world constantly dictated to her like she's learning impaired despite half of these things being out right lies or not applicable to her specific situation beyond being under a tyrant sucks; plus she isn't blindly oblivious to the most obvious happenings around her due to the need for constant dramatic reveals nor is everything around her growing ever more ridiculous by the day and is within seconds treated like common knowledge and that she's pants on head retarded for not knowing sooner; and most importantly, she isn't trying to get into all of her party member's pants simultaneously.


Whew, a lot of words that could be tl;dr'd as male gamers and game designers are almost unilaterally sexist and misogynistic to an incredible degree.
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« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2012, 04:47:02 AM »

@Ashton: Can't say I can I disagree with you. But personally I don't think that Lightning is selfish by the way she do things, then again, I haven't played XIII in a while but I don't remember being annoyed with her for being a bad character or anything like that even though the story in XIII is badly executed most of the time.

About Snow, it always bother me how he is so willing to put his life on the line for the people he cares about while that kind of actitude of being a hero ends being a problem for the people he is trying to protect.

That's sounds like a paradox to me. :p

You know who I always liked? Yuna.

Strip away all those fluffy cheesy JRPG bits of dialogue and leave just her intentions, she was a pretty strong female lead. On a mission of self-sacrifice while also keeping her dignity and upholding her moral convictions.

I dunno, others might disagree with me on that one.

And yet Tidus always remembers you that is his story.
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« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2012, 04:59:23 AM »

You know who I always liked? Yuna.

Strip away all those fluffy cheesy JRPG bits of dialogue and leave just her intentions, she was a pretty strong female lead. On a mission of self-sacrifice while also keeping her dignity and upholding her moral convictions.

I dunno, others might disagree with me on that one.

Spoony kinda ruined Yuna for me by pointing out all her logic errors. Not so sure you can call a female lead strong when she lacks basic common sense about the way her own universe works.  (Case in point: Failing to 'send' Seymour when he first drops, just electing to stand there and watch instead, only doing so far later with a more convoluted and less thought out plan.) Then again it's been ages since I played X myself so I'm not sure if he's spot on or just harping on a misinterpretation.

Even if Spoony's dead wrong X-2 kinda took a piss on the character anyway; which has a backlash effect on her X interpretation because you know canonically now she has that behavior within her.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 05:19:28 AM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
Alisha
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« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2012, 05:37:22 AM »

i love lightning but im sure thats no surprise however i actually see lots of fan rage torwards her especially on gamefaqs. i always assumed its because some boys cant deal with a strong female character. but i grew up with strong woman in my family.
Let me pose a question, Alisha.

Should boys look up to men who are needlessly violent and engage in borderline assault on the opposite gender? If not, why, then, should girls look up to violent and needlessly aggressive women as role models?

Can't a person be strong without resorting to violence, antagonism, and aggression? Or is that all people understand these days when it comes to role models?

the problem is such good heroines are exceptionally rare. the best example i can think of is raquel for wild arms 4. actually wild arms in general has a good track record with female pc's but i havent played 1 or 2.  a bad example is someone like elly from xenogears. bad characters like her leave me with feelings of jealousy and/or envy. i think my liking lightning is sorta like some football fans desperately wanting to see a great black quaterback. praising medicore ones because theres rarely a good one.
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« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2012, 07:28:12 AM »

You know who I always liked? Yuna.

Strip away all those fluffy cheesy JRPG bits of dialogue and leave just her intentions, she was a pretty strong female lead. On a mission of self-sacrifice while also keeping her dignity and upholding her moral convictions.

I dunno, others might disagree with me on that one.

Spoony kinda ruined Yuna for me by pointing out all her logic errors. Not so sure you can call a female lead strong when she lacks basic common sense about the way her own universe works.  (Case in point: Failing to 'send' Seymour when he first drops, just electing to stand there and watch instead, only doing so far later with a more convoluted and less thought out plan.) Then again it's been ages since I played X myself so I'm not sure if he's spot on or just harping on a misinterpretation.

Even if Spoony's dead wrong X-2 kinda took a piss on the character anyway; which has a backlash effect on her X interpretation because you know canonically now she has that behavior within her.

If I remember rightly, the Guado in Guado Salam stopped Yuna before she could start the Sending and took Seymour's body away and hid it, the party are then chased out of Macalania Temple. It's also worth pointing out that the group are completely in shock about killing Seymour, a measter, and even after it I think Wakka says "What have we done...".

After the second battle with Seymour, I'm actually not sure what happens, I think it cuts to after the party have escaped Bevelle directly after the fight, but I think something similar to what happened in Macalania happened, as this is the moment that she becomes a wanted woman. I think one of the other measters at this point reveals that he is also Unsent, and Yuna shows every intention to send him

The third time you fight him, he actually falls down the mountain, so they dont have much of a choice but to go onward to Zanarkand.

After the last battle, Seymour has no one to save him since they are Inside Sin, and as soon as they beat him, Yuna immediately starts the Sending. So I dont think it was a fault in her logic at all, she clearly wanted to send him, she just never got the opportunity.

As for FFX-2, I can't defend that.

P.S: Spoony is a tool.
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