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ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2012, 01:26:33 AM »

That was a weird punishment... I don't know how I feel about it though (something about it sounds really medieval too; today you usually just pay some crappy find and move on). 

I agree the 11 year old was wrong -- but she's fucken 11, kids do crazy stupid shit when they're kids.  And it was against a 3 year old; how much do they really know or care about what's going on with their hair really??

I find it rather refreshing actually. 'Paying your fine' really does nothing to teach a person about how their actions makes others feel. You can try to verbally drill it into them all day but empathic understanding is a rare thing in humans these days; especially the younger generations.

Two things about his second half rub me the wrong way though.

Ageism: You can't absolutely judge someone based simply on their age. Even in the lower numbers maturity, intellect, and awareness of one's actions can vary immensely. Speaking from experience, I was a bit of a jack*** when I was 11 (and parts of 12 where it was wearing off), being raised by my grandfather at the time I was met with punishments equal to ones like that; if not greater (In example of one such lesson; albeit this one from when I was 6-ish: I once thought it was funny to repeatedly press the red button on the dog shock collar while the dog was wearing it. Grandpa told me to wear the collar and I got a very brief dose of the lowest setting button myself along with spankings and grounding. I never thought shocking a dog was funny again.)

Guess what? I learned my lessons in a hurry. XD Giving kids a free pass to be pathetically cruel just because of their 'age' is a bad thing. Unless you develop that sense of action and consequence young people are likely to grow up thinking they can get away with anything. Why do you think there are so many people who get into so much crap once they hit that college age? It's because they never learned that lesson and mommy/daddy are no longer within arm's reach to shield them from this fact.

Secondly: While someone around that child's age is probably not going 'My hair! It's ruined! ;_;' the fact that a friend took advantage of them and betrayed them (they'll infer this from parental reaction more likely that concluding that themselves) could potentially have some form of long term psychological effect. Things in the long distant past, even at the youngest of ages, can and will stick around in the child's memory and has every chance of effect their growth in some shape or manner. For a less dramatic example let me use myself again. For the longest time as a teenager I kept pulling up this vivid memory of a road and a house in extreme detail (from the make of the walls to the blueprint of what rooms were where, ect.). I finally asked my parents if it sounded familiar and they said I was describing dot for dot the house we used to live in...which we moved out of when I was but naught 6 months old. I still remember the details. Memory is a tricky thing.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 01:30:32 AM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2012, 01:46:58 AM »

That was a weird punishment... I don't know how I feel about it though (something about it sounds really medieval too; today you usually just pay some crappy find and move on). 

I agree the 11 year old was wrong -- but she's fucken 11, kids do crazy stupid shit when they're kids.  And it was against a 3 year old; how much do they really know or care about what's going on with their hair really??
Well, you have to show kids HOW and WHY hat they did was wrong, not just that it was wrong.

What better way for them to understand than having what they did done to them?
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Dice
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« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2012, 02:45:31 AM »

That was a weird punishment... I don't know how I feel about it though (something about it sounds really medieval too; today you usually just pay some crappy find and move on). 

I agree the 11 year old was wrong -- but she's fucken 11, kids do crazy stupid shit when they're kids.  And it was against a 3 year old; how much do they really know or care about what's going on with their hair really??
Well, you have to show kids HOW and WHY hat they did was wrong, not just that it was wrong.

What better way for them to understand than having what they did done to them?

I cost my dad a LOT of money this year.... a fine can work as punishment enough, at least when you're that age to "understand the value of money" and all that shizz.

I don't think I'd be upset with a haircut punishment... just I think it's a weird revenge punishment for something that doesn't feel like too big a deal in the first place. 

The entire thing feels like much ado about nothing since I'm in more of a "it's hair -- it grows back" angle of thinking.  It's not like the mum at first raised a stink either, she "reluctantly agreed", but nothing more.  I think mum and me are looking at this as a "wtf" since it's not very standard practice. 

I don't like the judge pulling this though:
"I'm going to give you this option: I will cut that by 150 hours if you want to cut her hair right now," Johansen said in court."

Kind of weird to bargain a sentencing through reprisal hair cutting.  Again, it just sounds medieval.
Quite frankly, a smack on the ass was enough for me to feel sorry; courts take long enough to settle matters as is.

I'm not for or against what happened otherwise -- it's just weird.
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ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2012, 05:14:32 AM »

I think you're looking at it slightly backwards Dice. Yes it is 'weird'; but more on the point of it being 'modern' than 'medieval'. A judge is under no obligation to go easy on anyone. They have no obligation to bargain. The fact that he presented this option is actually a 'modern societal mercy'; allowing for a lesson to be taught more directly (and really; more gently) without handing down a full blown punishment. Medieval would be 'I don't give a damn what age you are or if you're guilty or not; this is my court, maximum sentence. No arguing. Next case please.'

You didn't see medieval judges go 'Well; you are a heathen. But you'll only get 300 days in the tower instead of being burned at the stake if you tear up your seditious literature.' XD
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 05:17:37 AM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
Yoda
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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2012, 12:36:08 PM »

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jwherrman/the-worlds-most-iconic-tech-sounds-slowed-down-8
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Dice
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« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2012, 12:43:40 PM »

I think you're looking at it slightly backwards Dice. Yes it is 'weird'; but more on the point of it being 'modern' than 'medieval'. A judge is under no obligation to go easy on anyone. They have no obligation to bargain. The fact that he presented this option is actually a 'modern societal mercy'; allowing for a lesson to be taught more directly (and really; more gently) without handing down a full blown punishment. Medieval would be 'I don't give a damn what age you are or if you're guilty or not; this is my court, maximum sentence. No arguing. Next case please.'

You didn't see medieval judges go 'Well; you are a heathen. But you'll only get 300 days in the tower instead of being burned at the stake if you tear up your seditious literature.' XD

I meant medieval in the "eye for an eye" look at it.
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Agent D.
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« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2012, 01:38:26 PM »

Seriously though, in a situation like that, how do you explain to the kid it's bad otherwise? Ground an 11 year old? That just makes em angry...and sneakier. Stern talking to? That went out the window already seeing as the parent was so on top of her kid to begin with. Having cut this girl's hair, just a ponytail mind you, she wasn't shaved bald, shows the young girl that it wasn't nice, it is demoralizing and embarassing. Thankfully, her hair will grow back, and she will never cut some little girls hair off again.

Also, she's 11 years old. Right and wrong should be established by now, consequences for actions are necessary. Also, she sure as shit knew what she was doing. 6 or 7 I could understand this as excessive, 9 maybe, but after 10 years old you have to be responsible for your actions. Murder is still a little out there as the concept of taking a life is still a bit extreme, but causing pain and or suffering to anyone at that point is something we would consciously be aware of. The "just a kid" excuse has is a bit late.
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Yoda
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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2012, 01:46:53 PM »

I love threads where a bunch of people that don't have kids act like child reading experts!
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Dice
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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2012, 02:09:03 PM »


Haha these are really cool. xD
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Agent D.
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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2012, 02:13:02 PM »

I love threads where a bunch of people that don't have kids act like child reading experts!
I always enjoy how people who are above the age of 21 forget that at one point we were kids. Adults in general seem to forget that.
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Yoda
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« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2012, 02:20:43 PM »

Acting a like a child and raising a child are probably two different things

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Agent D.
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« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2012, 02:41:21 PM »

True, but looking back at the the good things you did and the bad things you didn't and wouldn't do could generally be credited to how your parents raised you, leading me back to the fact that when I broke my sister's toy, my mother broke one of my toys to show me how mean it was. Never intentionally broke ANYONE'S toy again, and even stopped people from doing stuff similar to that (breaking a video game, breaking a pencil in class...etc). It's true, I never cut a person's hair for lulz as a kid, so this EXACT experience doesn't apply, but I'm 99% sure that if any of you ever had a similar experience at a young age, you probably didn't do said thing again.
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GrimReality
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« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2012, 04:42:57 PM »

I love threads where a bunch of people that don't have kids act like child reading experts!
Yeah, me too. It's entertaining.

Acting a like a child and raising a child are probably two different things


Indeed they are. Being a kid in no way prepares you to raise one. The only advantage I can say that it has given me is that I can always tell when my son is up to something he should NOT be up to. Kids trying real hard to be quiet = trouble-making kids. Or a child who is suddenly doing something that he doesn't normally do, like taking out the garbage. My sensors flare and I know I should check and see what he's up to.

The whole "eye for an eye" thing is very case sensitive. Personally, I would not go break one of my sons things if he broke something of mine. That's just ridiculous. Same thing with causing bodily harm. He certainly gets punished, but I'm more concerned about him knowing WHY you don't do these things, and the repercussions of such. He's a very intelligent and sensitive kid. We sit down and discuss the matter, then I dole out the appropriate punishment(he does extra chores to earn money to pay for something, or he loses gaming privileges for a week, etc etc.).
I am in no way one of those new agey parents who wants to be best friends with their kid. My first priority is to get him ready for the real world. To learn how to deal with other people with respect and courtesy. To appreciate everything we have, and this awesome world we live in. I sometimes feel like I am the only parent doing these things.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 05:07:38 PM by GrimReality » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2012, 04:51:52 PM »

With you until that very last, incredibly conceited sentence there Grim. :P
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« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2012, 04:56:27 PM »

Some of the condescension is kind of irritating.

Yes, many of us don't have kids. But many of us want to, and are hashing this out before we do so. some of us also have advice from our own parents regarding kids so its not some kind of "haha look at them talking about shit they know nothing about" crap. Do we have to have kids before we're allowed to.comment about child raising? It makes no sense. it'd be like saying nobody should be talking about medical procedures because nobody here is a doctor.
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