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Author Topic: Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria  (Read 17257 times)
daschrier
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« Reply #60 on: October 20, 2006, 10:59:11 AM »

I never played the first one, but am having a good time with this. It's a prequal I believe.
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Haven
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« Reply #61 on: October 20, 2006, 10:42:06 PM »

Ok, so i never got through Star Ocean 3. So I am not sure what the big plot twist that ate balls was, but if it is like what happened with VP2, I can understand the grief. Whatever, that is my only complaint with the game.

 I am about to start the SG. I need all the fancy pants weapons so I can laugh while I smoke that last boss.
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Raze
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« Reply #62 on: October 20, 2006, 11:03:13 PM »

Quote from: "Haven"
Ok, so i never got through Star Ocean 3. So I am not sure what the big plot twist that ate balls was


Oh it was bad.

(Spoilers for BOTH games)
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The twist was the whole star ocean universe was a video game. It might not have been as hideous a twist if you weren't PLAYING a video game, but when you're sitting there playing a game and the characters in the game are talking about how they aren't just characters in a game...it's fucking stupid. It's like when a cartoon character says 'What do you think this is, a cartoon?', except instead of the pain lasting 5 seconds from a bad one liner it lasts for hours.

The time travel twist in VP2, which basically stops the first game from ever happening can't hold a candle to it(I didn't even have a problem with it). Cliche as time travel is they really couldn't make silmeria without pulling a dues ex machina out their ass. You know what happens to Silmeria from the first game. She fails and gets trapped in that crystal prison thing.
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Haven
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« Reply #63 on: October 20, 2006, 11:23:37 PM »

Amen to that Raze. I didnt mind it so much in VP2. I mean what happens in chapter 4 took my breath away. It really started to build things up and made me wonder where things were going. I had really no idea that (Serious Spolier!!!)
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Lezard was the bad guy. I didnt realize that big spell they were casting was the Soverign's Rite until Odin himself said so when I wtfpwnd him


 Anywho, still need to see the ending. I bet by the end of the weekend I will have finished the SG and and finished the game. No way am I going the SG 10 times to get a weapon. Once is enough for me.
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Testament
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« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2006, 03:08:54 AM »

I honestly can’t even fathom why Tri-Ace decided to end the game the way they did.

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Considering that 95% of the game was spend setting the stage for so many VP1 questions that needed to be answered.  Things like the relationship between Brahms and Lenneth.  Why exactly did he hold her in such a high regard?  Why did he feel she would be the one to kill him when he made it pretty clear that the others could not?  Brahms final speech at the end of VP1 no longer makes any sense.  How exactly did Silmeria tie into creation?  Lezard’s character was consistent, but since he was the main antagonist this time around, they should explained his motives far more then they did.  The main thing being, how exactly did he come to learn about Lenneth?  Alicia’s purpose really makes no sense either...  How exactly was she still able to wield Valkyrie’s powers when Silmeria’s consciousness was no longer with her?  There is also the question of how Freya knew about Lenneth the Creator...


A couple of good things though.

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I like the development they gave Hrist, Brahms and Silmeria.  I never felt that Brahms was evil (despite being the lord of the undead).  I thought his motive for “saving” Silmeria was really cool.  I felt the same about his final scene (despite it throwing off continuity).  Hrist I felt was dead on.  Her motives from VP1 didn’t change, she was all about saving her sister.  Silmeria was great.  I really liked her character.


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We can also infer quiet a bit about how thing went down in VP1's timeline.  We can assume everything happened the way it should of until the final moment in Chapter 4...  Brahms “saved” Silmeria from the three mages and Hrist was sent back to Valhalla to avoid being “feasted” on.  Brahms keeps Silmeria in that form since he knows she does not want to leave Midgar.  It’s also quiet likely that Brahms used her as a power source (much like Odin meant to use Brahms).  That would also explain why Midgar survived for so long without the Dragon Orb in Lenneth’s world and why Brahms simply didn’t transfer Silmeria back into Alicia.  At this point, Lenneth’s relationship with Brahms would be explained... but no clues on what would have happened are given...


In the end though, it’s still a fantastic game.  Such a shame about the ending though.  Ultimately, it doesn’t come close to VP1 for me.

EDIT: Raze, I honestly consider it to be just as bad... if not worse.  Not because the twist is as absurd, but because the story was amazing up until that point.  SO3 was pretty bad from the beginning (though that might just be my opinion).

I had more stuff I wanted to say about the actual ending, but I'm sleepy.
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Barnacle
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« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2006, 04:36:23 AM »

I think Tri-Ace handled the story quite well,
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and the use of the time travel was a master stroke; not only did it explain some mysteries in the first game, e.g., Silmeria being crystallized, but it also brought new ones as well.   As to the future, who knows.  Even with the events in VP: Silmeria, it is still possible that VP1 will happen as told.  For one thing, the fate of Odin is still unknown, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Lezard will re-appear; he’s too shrewd to not have a back-up plan, ala Voldemort.  I am really quite excited as to the future of VP.


Regarding New Testament’s questions, I have a few theories of my own as follows:
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- Brahms probably fought Lenneth at an earlier era under Odin's behest, and true warriors know each other’s worth.  As can be inferred in the first game, the Lord of the Undead seems to have feelings for the goddess as well, unrequited perhaps or were they lovers in the past?

- Silmeria is not tied to creation, except in regards to her role as a goddess in the transmigration of souls.  The “creation” is  a power  peculiar to Lenneth and such power  she gained when she evolved as a half-elf (as much as Odin evolved as AllFather).   I would say that her power is a side/traumatic effect of Loki’s destruction of  Midgard, when the souls of the destroyed world and her compassion merged into one.  

- Freya’s comment about Lenneth still puzzles me too.  One possibility is that Lenneth met with her prior to that event.  That or  maybe she thinks that Lenneth, being the only Valkyrie absent and therefore uncorrupted by the recent events, would continue her role as a Valkyrie in the cycle of death and rebirth, which is an important process in Asgard/Midgard.

- Lezard’s only motive is lust, lust, and lust.  He was your regular obsessive maniac, except that his object is not your usual girl next door, but a goddess.  The Valkyries and their purpose are well-known in Midgard, so knowledge about Lenneth is a simple matter.

- Silmeria is in the same body as Alicia is, and her power is probably part of the body’s DNA, which power Alicia was able to utilize even if Silmeria’s soul is gone.  

- I doubt if Brahms would use Silmeria as a power source.  He owes Silmeria a debt as indicated in the pivotal scene in Dipan.  The crystallized Silmeria probably remained as such in VP1 because Brahms has no power to undo it.  He may be powerful, but I doubt he has Lezard’s brains and resourcefulness.  

- As to the Dragon Orb, the effects at Midgard are probably not immediate, but the removal thereof hastened Ragnarok, which Lenneth put the blame squarely on Odin in the first game.

Regarding Star Ocean 3, the plot twist was unexpected, but I had no problem with it.   I thought the game had a neat story.
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Testament
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« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2006, 02:51:00 PM »

At Barnacle's reply....

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That's not very likely.  Brahms gives absolutely no indication that he had met Lenneth prior to their encounter at the Tower of Lezard.  No, I never got the sense that he loved her.  He seemed to be more interested in the fact that she just might be able to kill him (notice his battle comments and final scene in VP2).  A better theory I think, is that after Brahms saved Silmeria and Hrist was sent back to Valhalla (to avoid being feasted on by the three mages) Freya sent Lenneth to Midgar to retrieve Silmeria.  Brahms gives some indication that Lenneth had learned some truth during their encounter... which could explain why Silmeria is still with Brahms.


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I realized the people of Midgar knew about the Battle-Maiden...  But Lezard seemed to know everything... including the death and rebirth cycle of the the Valkyrie.  I recall Lucian being very surprised about this, so it's not common knowledge.


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I always looked at a Valkyrie's power being something metaphysical.


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Brahms power is on par with Odin's, this is said varies times.  Not only that, but he knew the Sovereign's Rite... he knew it so well that he transfered not one Valkyrie Soul, but three into a single body.  Transferring Silmeria back into Alicia would have been a simple task.  However, would Silmeria want to be transfer knowing that she was mostly the only thing that could stop (or at the very least slow down) Midgar's destruction?
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daschrier
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« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2006, 02:57:09 PM »

Just entered the
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Dragons place
in chapter 3. Wow that place is a bitch. Can't really get any better equipment either because I don't have the right materials. This game is pretty frustrating at times.
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Barnacle
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« Reply #68 on: October 29, 2006, 10:29:39 PM »

I also had a hard time in the palace.  After finishing the dungeon, and having good levels and better equipment, I returned to it and massacred the enemies as revenge. :)

Testament – Allow me to add/expand:

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- Indeed, Brahms did not indicate anything in VP2, which also puzzled me, but the scene in Brahms Castle in VP1, particularly the dialogue about Lenneth warming Brahms’ heart (or something to that effect), suggested that there was something between the two.  In VP2, maybe he was just being reticent about disclosing his relationship with Lenneth, considering that the Lenneth that appeared is not the Lenneth that he knew, but from one of the possible futures and therefore different; Lenneth even declared in their first meeting that she is not the Valkyrie, but the Creator.  That, or the feeling Brahms alludes to in the first game occurred after the events of VP2 prior to Lezard’s meddling, e.g., it is possible that Lenneth saved Brahms from his captured state in Valhalla, since Hrist saving him is unthinkable and Silmeria is out of service, assuming of course this capture also happened in pre-Lezard past.  This would reconcile with your theory.

- The crucial event in Dipan was certainly a shocker and I still have to grasp yet its full import.  Aside from your theory, I also think the following:  Odin knows or at least suspects the ongoings at Dipan and he has his sights on the major characters; he is a cunning god after all.  Upon the invocation of the Sovereign’s Rite--which Odin seems to be afraid of; maybe Dipan was indeed correct that it is a way to elude the AllFather’s grasp since it would trap the Valkyries and thus end the cycle of souls in accordance with the gods--and with Brahms incapacitated, bent on saving the Valkyries, Odin sent Freya to Dipan to hit two birds with one stone, i.e., stop the rite or at least save the Valkyries, and capture Brahms.  Freya proceeded with her mission, but she was only able to capture/retrieve Brahms and Hrist.  Silmeria tried to save Brahms, but her soul was whisked away by Lezard--pity about Hrist, she always gets sidelined; she deserves her own story where she gets full star treatment. :) It’s interesting to note how the introduction of Lezard complicated everything, that it is a mystery now as to what might have originally transpired in and after Dipan.  The beauty of time travel, it introduces many fresh riddles and possibilities.

- Lezard is a wretched freak, but he is a very intelligent and resourceful freak.  For somebody who has found/discovered the philosopher’s stone, the lost runes, the truth about Odin’s ascendancy to power (him being a half-elf), and the homunculi,  I think knowing the true nature of the Valkyries would be a simple matter to him.  His obsession would be added fuel too.

- Yes, I also agree that a Valkyrie’s power is metaphysical, though such power is not unlimited.  That reminds of the lines before the Ragnarok in VP1, about gods being nothing more than creatures with heightened powers.  Incidentally, I really liked how Lenneth’s power evolved in the first game; it was just perfect and logical.  Loki’s destruction of the world released the souls, probably to vanish for all eternity, but since Lenneth was still active and as a Valkyrie, probably the only one left, involved in the cycle of deaths and rebirths, a receptacle and conduit of sorts,  the souls were drawn and then amassed within her--Lenneth’s dialogue about hearing and feeling “them” was unforgettable, and coupled with her compassion for the humans, which was apparent with her exchanges with Freya and Loki during Ragnarok and which is also an essential trait of one who truly creates, she transformed.

- You’re right about Brahms.  There’s something more than meets the eye with him, but I doubt if he knows something about homunculi which Lenneth even had to identify for them.  The absence of such knowledge is probably the reason why Silmeria was still crystallized in VP1.   Of course, Brahms could have always merged himself with Silmeria if he wanted to, as Lezard intended with the crystallized Lenneth, but that would also mean losing both their identifies.  In VP2’s final battle, the union of Alicia  with the souls of the three (3) Valkyries resulted into a new and different being, and afterwards, the souls split and were reborn, presumably with memories of the previous lives’ forgotten.  That probably is something Brahms would prefer only as a last resort, like the event where he wanted to merge with the souls of Silmeria and Hrist in order to defeat Lezard.
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Testament
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« Reply #69 on: October 30, 2006, 02:35:42 AM »

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I can understand where you are coming from.  But I still don't believe Brahms wanted anything from Lenneth other then destruction.  The way he describes being able to feel pain and die, the way he simply accepts it...  Those were the words of a man who wanted did not want to live anymore.

Also, it doesn't seem like Brahms was captured by Freya in Lenneth's timeline.  The scene where future Lenneth describes what should of happened had Brahms defeating Freya and taking Silmeria.  This is where Lenneth would appear in my theory.

I still believe that Silmeria maintained Midgar during that time without the Dragon Orb.  It gives meaning to Brahms final words at the end of VP1 and it also explains why Brahms simply didn't transfer Silmeria back into Alicia.

One thing that REALLY troubles me about Brahms is exactly, what is he?  It's never explained how he became the lord of the undead or exactly what that entitles him to.  


Honestly, I loved the game...

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Until Lenneth appeared.  That should of been an iconic moment for the series.  Instead it was an absurd mess.  The time travel thing was just a way to escape continuity and add a lot of fan servicing aspects in the process.  Everything seems so of after that point.  I found it it incredibly ridiculous that the Valkyrie's had so little to say to each other.  For the first time since their creation they were actually able to stand together, yet they had absolutely nothing meaningful to say to each other.

I guess the real problem I had was just that.  Nothing meaningful was said.  VP1's ending was just incredible.  Lenneth's transformation held a real meaning.  I just don't understand where VP2 went, what exactly was the game about?
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Barnacle
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« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2006, 04:50:39 AM »

I’ve got a few things to add.  Nothing in this forum disallows rambling, right?  I just love to ramble.  :)

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- Interesting.  So, Brahms see Lenneth as his rightful Executioner.  That never crossed my mind, but it is plausible.  I’ve come across stories where a strong warrior would declare with certainty that he will die only in the hands of a specific somebody, and he does.   It’s like prescience.

- I think Lenneth mentioned that the existing timeline diverged from hers when Lezard took away Silmeria, instead of Brahms saving her, and by “saving her,” I get to mean that Brahms transported Silmeria somewhere else.  But the bit you mention about Brahms defeating Freya and taking Silmeria is intriguing.  Was this mentioned in Lenneth’s exposition in VP2 or in VP1?  I need to take note of that in my replays of the game.

- I don’t think it is possible for Silmeria to maintain Midgard, because that power alone resides in the Dragon Orb.   In VP1, if memory serves me correctly, Lenneth blamed Odin for the Ragnarok because he messed with the Dragon Orb--and thus throwing into disorder the balance of the worlds, which event tied up rather nicely with the betrayal in VP2 in the Palace of the Venerated Dragon.  Which also brings an intriguing question:  once a Valkyrie’s memory sealed by Odin is unsealed, will memories in previous existences be remembered?

- I see VP2, which I consider one of the best gaming experiences I ever have, as a progression and a flow, quite similar to the “Back to the Future” movies (which were really fun, btw), so I don’t consider it an invalidation of  whatever is in VP1, which I also personally consider one of the best RPGs.  If ever, I think time travel enriched the series because it brought new mysteries and surprises.  And the presence of Lenneth in VP2 was only right and proper, because she was chasing the bastard Lezard.   I also found her appearance very nostalgic.  

- Regarding Brahms, I like some things to be wrapped in fog and mystery, so I like the lack of definite/complete details on Brahms, much as I like the riddles surrounding Jeanne and Viki of Suikoden.  Odin did mention a rebel of sorts in VP2, so I assumed he was referring to Brahms.  

- Regarding the Valkyries not talking to each other, that was only natural.  They were dignified warriors and goddesses, so emotional outbursts/bonding ala Oprah would be totally out of character. :) You must also remember that only one of them is supposed to be awake at any point of time and Odin seals their memories while awake, so I doubt that helped.  
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Testament
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« Reply #71 on: October 30, 2006, 12:15:58 PM »

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- Brahms defeating Freya and taking Silmeria was explained during future Lenneth's introduction.  I don't recall exactly, but during that scene it's Silmeria who warns Brahms about Freya, he then proceeds to pummel her.

- It's actually very possible for Silmeria to maintain Midgar.  When Freya captures Brahms in VP2, Odin makes a comment about using the captured Brahms as a power source to maintain Midgar.  Silmeria isn't as powerful as Brahms, but she could certainly prolonged Midgar's existance.  As for the memories question...  Lenneth certainly was able to at the very least, remember her life as Platina.

- Dilan mentions a Dipan King who was turned into an einherjar against his will by a Valkyrie.  I know it's vague, but that might be who Brahms originally was.

- The Valkyrie's not even speaking to each other did not seem natural at all.  I remember the scene involving Silmeria and Hrist early on (especially in Chapter 3).  There was genuine emotion between the two.  The Valkyrie's are not beyond emotions either.  Even Hrist in the end ended up joining Alicia and co. because of her personal feelings.  For the first time since their creation they were actually able to stand together... yet they could not even say a word to one another.  I just found that incredibly unsettling.

Also, Lenneth and Silmeria were able to recall their past lives.  Hrist probably wasn't, but she was definitely struggling with something.
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Barnacle
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« Reply #72 on: October 30, 2006, 08:05:59 PM »

Those are nice information.  I’ll be sure to watch out for them in my next plays, and then revisit existing theories.  That’s the one thing I like about the VP series, like Suikoden/Xenosaga, there is room for lots of speculation, which is how good and intelligent stories should be.  
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And time travel upped the ante.

Well, Lenneth did declare that she was not the Valkyrie, but the Creator from one of the possible futures, so I suppose that did not help much.  But, then, they are goddesses, so who knows.  I’d like to believe they did converse.  That reminds me of Immacolata and her two sisters in Clive Barker’s “Weaveworld.”  They seem to not  speak much in the story, but the understanding and their unity, however twisted, was there and unmistakable.

Yeah, Hrist seems like a troubled soul in VP2.  I like her as Leone, who incidentally I half suspected to be Lenneth since Silmeria didn’t denounce her when she did object reading, so imagine my surprise when she turned out to be Hrist.  Leone’s scenes with Alicia were insightful.   I’d bet Odin has Hrist’s memories still sealed, the way he did with Lenneth.  So, Silmeria probably pities her, much as she was afraid what  Hrist would do to her and her einjerhars should she reveal her identity before gaining access to the Dragon Orb--I think this is so, because Silmeria did declare that she was incomplete and weak while in Alicia’s schizoid state, so the Valkyrie was pinning her hopes in the Dragon Orb which, alas, was stolen away.

There is also one big mystery in the game which I’m rather curious about:  what exactly caused Silmeria’s and Alicia’s consciousness to split in the same body.  Silmeria blamed Odin, but she was not exactly specific.  Silmeria seems to be a rebel Valkyrie much like her unsealed sister Lenneth, is it possible that Odin had her prematurely sleep, so that his seal was not perfect and was broken in Alicia?  Hrist tried to do this with Lenneth in the first game, immediately prior to Ragnarok.
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