Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII, The Last 13 Days

[Yggdrasil]

Toriyama: Lightning Returns will be the most "complete and polished game in the Final Fantasy series" -- Source: Nova Crystallis

ヽ(￣д￣)ノ eh~

Show, don't tell.

[Aeolus]

Toriyama: Lightning Returns will be the most "complete and polished game in the Final Fantasy series" -- Source: Nova Crystallis

ヽ(￣д￣)ノ eh~

Show, don't tell.

From the guy who brought us "Caius Ballad is the biggest baddest most awesome perfect invincible antagonist evar. Even more so than Sephiroth, he'll be Super Ultra Deluxe Mark Two Turbo Sephiroth. :squee:" (paraphrased; but not by enough).

What I'm trying to say is that he needs to be fired (out of a cannon, and into the sun).

[insertnamehere]

One problem I had with FF13 was that it seemed too polished, like they spent too much time working on making things shiny, especially menus.
Apparently now they'll make it shinier than ever.

[Kevadu]

You know how DeLoreans are made from stainless steel so they're typically not painted?  They're just good old stainless steel color.  I knew a guy with a DeLorean who loved to polish it.  He just polished it all the time until it was super-shiny.  As a result he couldn't drive it on sunny days because the sun would reflect off the shiny hood and blind the driver...

There's a metaphor in there somewhere.

[ZeronHitaro]

"Most complete and polished game in the series".

And yet funnily enough the two, arguably by the theoretical majority, "best, by public reception" Final Fantasy games, that still make you money to this day; are Final Fantasy VI and VII.

One's constructed entirely out of pixelated sprites, the other hasn't had its graphics updated past horrendously deformed proto-polygonal models.

And you're focusing on 'polish' to get SE out of the gutter...why?

[Iron Maw]

Some of you guys are jumping on that statement tad too much. He's basically saying he's trying to make Lightning Return best game it can. Last time I checked there was nothing wrong with that. Of course it will be up to fans and reviewers to judge how really "polished" when it is released, but there is hardly anything offensive there.

[Parn]

It doesn't matter if it's Motomu Toriyama or Peter Molyneux.  If you and your company have a history of overselling and hyping your products and failing to meet those imposed expectations, people are going to react negatively when the hype machine returns for another go-around.

[Iron Maw]

True, but that's game industry for you, what else a developer is going to say about his/her game? At least he didn't it's going to be the best " FF " ever or something.

[Aeolus]

True, but that's game industry for you, what else a developer is going to say about his/her game? At least he didn't it's going to be the best " FF " ever or something.

Except that they more or less did. They just avoided using the word 'best' by using the word 'complete' and to a lesser extent 'polished'.

The fact that the same guy is making the same promise that he made last time about something that wound up being so awful it felt like it was pulled from some Deviant Art's web comic simply doesn't bode well for this game.

Nevermind that the brand has been bereft of a good game since XI (or earlier depending on who you ask), this isn't even a flagship title which have a history of turning out poorly, and the fact that the games that this spun off of didn't work and rather than admitting defeat and starting over with a fresh new approach they've been persistently pushing the same setting, the same characters cardboard cutouts, the same deus ex machina prone to tossing out 'get out of jail free' cards, and so on.

[Iron Maw]

Except that they more or less did. They just avoided using the word 'best' by using the word 'complete' and to a lesser extent 'polished'.

Being the "best" isn't necessary being the most "polished" though as some have pointed out. For example FFVII is a FF, I would consider the most polished in series is as in it has lot's of content, fairly complex mechanics, interesting worldview, but has other aspects such as it's plot (which starts of strong), interchangeable characters, coherency etc that weaken it.  Basically,  "polish" here vaguely defined.

The fact that the same guy is making the same promise that he made last time about something that wound up being so awful it felt like it was pulled from some Deviant Art's web comic simply doesn't bode well for this game.

I don't remember any other times when he said this game will be the "best.  I know he's hyped some details of his game, but we know pretty every developer does this.

Nevermind that the brand has been bereft of a good game since XI (or earlier depending on who you ask), this isn't even a flagship title which have a history of turning out poorly, and the fact that the games that this spun off of didn't work and rather than admitting defeat and starting over with a fresh new approach they've been persistently pushing the same setting, the same characters cardboard cutouts, the same deus ex machina prone to tossing out 'get out of jail free' cards, and so on.

For all intents and purposes Lightning Returns existentially that, a new setting that takes place in same world with different gameplay and mostly likely new characters. It's about as fresh you can be working on a sequel outside having completely new cast. Yes it's true that mostly FF spin-off are generally lackluster, but doesn't mean it haven't been goods ones that can compete with main series. Many would argue that FFT, FFX-2, Type-0 and Theaterhythm are better than some of mainline games. I don't Toriyama needs to admit anything or can anyway. Just improve and make a good game as expected of any other FF.

BTW, attributing "questionable storytelling" to just FFXIII or Toriyama is pointless, FF (and RPGs in general) are full of DEM. FF has those problems every game regardless of his involvement, not even FFVI is exempt from this. The only difference is that some games handle it better than others, Toriyama certainly did so in FFX.

[Aeolus]

BTW, attributing "questionable storytelling" to just FFXIII or Toriyama is pointless, FF (and RPGs in general) are full of DEM. FF has those problems every game regardless of his involvement, not even FFVI is exempt from this. The only difference is that some games handle it better than others, Toriyama certainly did so in FFX.

And we don't need to ask them to improve their 'storytelling' because...?


At any rate, I'm not going to touch the issues I have with FFX because I don't want to be here all night going off on that tangent. Instead I'm going to focus my beef towards the FFXIII series and its criminal lack of player agency. I can handle a dumb plot or awful characters every once in awhile. What I don't like is hallway simulators, stomped bosses getting back up shouting "you lose" even though you just stomped them, growth mechanics that require being at end game or post game to make use of, and party mechanics that take forever to be allowed to use. And when people like me complained about these issues, they were 'addressed' by throwing the book out the window and slapping on rudimentary RPG mechanics and a collectathon in an attempt at handwaving their laziness with 'progress'. My problem is that they're doing it again. They're throwing out the parties, the monster collecting, and what have you for a single player ARPG (though probably along the lines of Lightning's DLC for XIII-2). They're not addressing the problem they're slapping on gameplay mechanics that look like they were 'borrowed' from Majora's Mask.

They've already made two attempts at trying to get it right; how many more attempts do you think they'll need before they magically get 'it'? How many more attempts of theirs are you going to tolerate? How much are you willing to pay to allow these people to continue on their merry little way? How many times are you willing to listen to how you suck, how you lost, how little you matter in their grand scheme of things?

And my point here isn't about Final Fantasy XIII but of all Final Fantasies. How many mulligans are they going to need for XIV before they get it right? How many games are their board of directors going to need to meddle in? How many compilations are they going to make before they realize how awful the very idea of a premade compilation is? How many unnecessary sequels are they going to use to ruin otherwise simple and straight forward characters, settings, and plots? How long are they going to divide their resources and efforts to make games that take the better part of a decade to make? How many more years do you think it'll take 'Versus comparisons to DNF' jokes to become passé?

Me? I'm done with most of this. Bravely Default looks like its trying to move away from what Final Fantasy 'is' to become what Final Fantasy 'was', and maybe TWEWY 2 might happen to succeed TWEWY 1 successfully, but those are my exceptions; my 'chances' that I'll give them. But I'm not spending a dime on them until I know for a fact that they are worth my time or not. And I'm not going to know just because they say so.

[Iron Maw]

And we don't need to ask them to improve their 'storytelling' because...?

Your misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that they shouldn't, but rather that's just how it has more or less always been.

At any rate, I'm not going to touch the issues I have with FFX because I don't want to be here all night going off on that tangent. Instead I'm going to focus my beef towards the FFXIII series and its criminal lack of player agency. I can handle a dumb plot or awful characters every once in awhile. What I don't like is hallway simulators, stomped bosses getting back up shouting "you lose" even though you just stomped them, growth mechanics that require being at end game or post game to make use of, and party mechanics that take forever to be allowed to use. And when people like me complained about these issues, they were 'addressed' by throwing the book out the window and slapping on rudimentary RPG mechanics and a collectathon in an attempt at handwaving their laziness with 'progress'. My problem is that they're doing it again. They're throwing out the parties, the monster collecting, and what have you for a single player ARPG (though probably along the lines of Lightning's DLC for XIII-2). They're not addressing the problem they're slapping on gameplay mechanics that look like they were 'borrowed' from Majora's Mask.

They've already made two attempts at trying to get it right; how many more attempts do you think they'll need before they magically get 'it'? How many more attempts of theirs are you going to tolerate? How much are you willing to pay to allow these people to continue on their merry little way? How many times are you willing to listen to how you suck, how you lost, how little you matter in their grand scheme of things?

But Lightning Returns is not being made to address problems related FFXIII (or XIII-2), that was FFXIII-2's job and it did adequately. LR being an Action RPG with one controllable character should be a non-issue unless you hate the sub-genre because some of the best RPGs ever made are ARPGs. This isn't the first FF game to be an action RPG either (FF Adventure, Crisis Core, Versus, Crystal Chronicle series etc). So I'm not getting your grievance here especially since LR doesn't look to have most issues of FFXIII had.

And my point here isn't about Final Fantasy XIII but of all Final Fantasies. How many mulligans are they going to need for XIV before they get it right? How many games are their board of directors going to need to meddle in? How many compilations are they going to make before they realize how awful the very idea of a premade compilation is? How many unnecessary sequels are they going to use to ruin otherwise simple and straight forward characters, settings, and plots? How long are they going to divide their resources and efforts to make games that take the better part of a decade to make? How many more years do you think it'll take 'Versus comparisons to DNF' jokes to become passé?

Many of your complaints are fairly exaggerated or don't really link with on another. For starters you make it sound like FFXIV went through many failures (it didn't) and isn't getting fixed and being on track to becoming a great game (it is). Second, FFXIII is the only premade compilation, others were made after the fact (Ivalice Advance and FFVII Complication). Many these contained great games (i.e FFTA2, WoTL, Crisis Core etc) and were pretty well liked, so SE certainly doing something right. And your problems with sequels only really apply to the FFVII stuff and that game was hardly straight forward to begin with (FFV was the last FF like that anyway).

I do agree with you on Versus (it's completely embarrassing really) and the crazy development time SE 's console games take, but not like the company isn't still turning out quality stuff when they aren't technology handicapped. It's also not like they aren't working on sorting out those things too. The Luminous Studio engine is one of the ways made in mind combat it.

Me? I'm done with most of this. Bravely Default looks like its trying to move away from what Final Fantasy 'is' to become what Final Fantasy 'was', and maybe TWEWY 2 might happen to succeed TWEWY 1 successfully, but those are my exceptions; my 'chances' that I'll give them.

FF hasn't become anything though. It's been what always has, which is providing a "difference experience" good or bad.

But I'm not spending a dime on them until I know for a fact that they are worth my time or not. And I'm not going to know just because they say so.

Shouldn't this normally be the case though?

[Yggdrasil]

FF hasn't become anything though. It's been what always has, which is providing a "difference experience" good or bad.

That's arguable depending on who you ask. I've seen some longtime fans of the franchise mentioning that FFVIII started the whole "Teen Drama" being the focus of the narrative which many people seem to consider the point in where the series started to go to hell.

[ZeronHitaro]

If you wanted to split hairs and exaggerate narrative emphasis you could potentially argue that 'Teen Drama' existed in Final Fantasy long before VIII was even conceived. Take Terra for example, now granted it's been forever and a day since I played the game so I can't string the analogy together as well as I'd like; but you could sum up the entire near first half of FF VI's 'plot driving force' as dealing with Terra's teenage issues, some in analogy and some directly. (Adoption, dealing with 'physical changes during her coming of age' by equating the esper body/powers to hitting puberty, ect.)

Heck the entire freaking party has to go clopping across the globe because their teenage member freaked over how she looked in the mirror and 'ran away from home'. (Again to note; just describing what happens with the right spin to make a point rather than saying that's literally the plot. XD )

[Yggdrasil]

Hm, yeh. :v

It has more to do with how that drama is presented with the characters and all that. I mean, Squall "Mr. Go talk to a wall" Leonhart was pretty obnoxious for some people. And Tidus... is an annoying dude with a heart of gold, or something.