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Author Topic: Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII, The Last 13 Days  (Read 71109 times)
Klutz64
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« Reply #810 on: April 06, 2014, 07:32:58 PM »

Can we at least agree that the twist at the very end of LR was unnecessary, stupid, and cheapened the whole series?
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Yggdrasil
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« Reply #811 on: April 06, 2014, 07:37:09 PM »

You give off weird vibes to me(I don't mean it in a derrogatory way). You talk like someone who has been through a lot, like a veteran of war who possibly lost some limbs and fought a lot of battles and just gave up on life(in terms of internet discussions).

And what do you want me to say when a lot of the people that play Square games suffer from Stockholm Syndrome? If I say too much they get salty so I rather leave most of that noise alone.

Having to read supplemental material outside and unrelated to the game to get the most out of it is silly, no matter the series.

It depends on the series and it's audience. You can develop an audience for that kind of content, and those who don't like it have the choice of ignore it if they are comfortable doing that.

Can we at least agree that the twist at the very end of LR was unnecessary, stupid, and cheapened the whole series?

You are trying to make an opinion within this community a fact?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 08:07:00 PM by Yggdrasil » Logged
Dice
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« Reply #812 on: April 06, 2014, 08:06:47 PM »

Not having played the final game yet, and going from what people say about the story, I dunno was there any ...um, antecedence[?] for it to happen and for things to end the way it does?

Otherwise, I agree, it seems kinda tacked on.

I am glad that it is just a "nice" conclusion.  I was expecting at least one terrible thing to happen (I actually give 13-2 major kudos for the 'ballsy' ending it had).  But i guess the game makes you fight enough for the happy ending.

I definitely agree with Cyril.  13's plot has a lot of good things and a lot of potential (I liked the 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' concepts); I'm just not sure I liked the way it was executed at all.  Certainly the hop-skip-jump it pulls between titles felt a bit distracting, disconnected, and like their original vision wasn't really pulling the title along anymore.

Moon world --> Time Travel --> Majora's Mask-styled World Destruction of new land

I liked the point about making them standalone titles as well.  I'd rather explore one thing a bit more thoroughly, especially a world as impressive as 13's, than be torn between many.
Like, did anyone else feel all of the After Fall era of 13-2 was cool yet an extremely melancholic?  It was certainly the biggest 'heartache' I got from the saga. 
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« Reply #813 on: April 06, 2014, 08:17:13 PM »

Having to read supplemental material outside and unrelated to the game to get the most out of it is silly, no matter the series.

It depends on the series and it's audience. You can develop an audience for that kind of content, and those who don't like it have the choice of ignore it if they are comfortable doing that.

I disagree, a series can be harmed quite a bit by not having information readily available in-game, as FFXIII demonstrates. I'd say if the prologue side-story book had been added as scenes in-game, more than a few complaints about the characters, especially the complaints about Lightning having no personality and Vanille being annoying, would have been rendered null.  XIII is, if anything, one of the biggest modern offenders showing why this method of storytelling is not viable in all situations.  I guess you could pull out things like Mass Effect 3 suddenly having some super powerful ridiculous Cyborg dude from their books who for some reason hates and stalks Shepard as well.

There's a difference between supplemental material and story-based material necessary for understanding the world the game takes place in. Supplemental material is fine if the plot of the game and most subplots stand alone without it, but I cannot support outside material being necessary to fully appreciate or understand a game's world and story.   I would say the sole exceptions are games where the world is intentionally vague and events are up for interpretation.

Edit: And, to elaborate, I'd say a good example of properly used supplemental material is FFX's Eternal Calm movie.  I didn't get to see it until a few years after X was released, but before X-2, and it came on a demo disk in OPM (or one of those older magazines).  You didn't need to see that movie to understand why Yuna and Rikku were doing what they were doing, it simply elaborated on currently known storyline or storyline that was soon to be released.  In FFXIII, without the supplemental material, you have no idea why Lightning's character is the way she is.

See the difference?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 08:24:15 PM by Cyril » Logged
Yggdrasil
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« Reply #814 on: April 06, 2014, 08:48:41 PM »

^I never said I disagreed, in fact, I share part of your point of view with what you just said. One of my frustrations you would say with XIII was the novels having integral portions of the narrative stuck there.

This pieces of narrative I feel might be officially localized and released a few years later when SQEX decides to re-release the XIII series in the future for a new platform.

...right now however I would like to see XII International Zodiac Job System remastered.
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Kevadu
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« Reply #815 on: April 07, 2014, 12:41:50 AM »

I've been following this discussion and thought about weighing a few times but I really didn't want to get into one of those arguments again...still I wanted to add my thoughts as an official FFXIII hater.

1.  I actually loved FFXII.  In fact I rank it as one of my favorite FF games (and I've been playing them since the original on the NES), though still second to VI.  So I was actually quite optimistic going into XIII.  I read the prequel novella and had pretty much bought into the hype.  So I certainly gave it a chance.  I knew the characters and had no trouble following what was going on.

2.  I didn't start hating FFXIII until I played the damn thing.  And boy did I hate it.

3.  I liked what the story was trying to do, but much like Dice I felt that it failed miserably in the execution.  Then add in some badly-written dialogue and stiff characters to boot.

4.  Still, 80% of why I hate it so much is the gameplay.  I've played plenty of games with cheesy writing and enjoyed them so long as the game part is fun.  But there was nothing fun about FFXIII for me.  The battle system was terrible.  I didn't find it hard, just tedious.  You end up switching between like the same three paradigms over and over and over as you fight enemies with inflated HP bars.  And then on top of that, there's nothing else in the game besides the battle system.  If you don't like the battle system there is literally nothing to like about the game.  There is no side content, no exploration, no minigames, nothing.  Just a lot of boring tedious battles.
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« Reply #816 on: April 07, 2014, 02:48:55 AM »

I've been following this discussion and thought about weighing a few times but I really didn't want to get into one of those arguments again...still I wanted to add my thoughts as an official FFXIII hater.

1.  I actually loved FFXII.  In fact I rank it as one of my favorite FF games (and I've been playing them since the original on the NES), though still second to VI.  So I was actually quite optimistic going into XIII.  I read the prequel novella and had pretty much bought into the hype.  So I certainly gave it a chance.  I knew the characters and had no trouble following what was going on.

2.  I didn't start hating FFXIII until I played the damn thing.  And boy did I hate it.

3.  I liked what the story was trying to do, but much like Dice I felt that it failed miserably in the execution.  Then add in some badly-written dialogue and stiff characters to boot.

4.  Still, 80% of why I hate it so much is the gameplay.  I've played plenty of games with cheesy writing and enjoyed them so long as the game part is fun.  But there was nothing fun about FFXIII for me.  The battle system was terrible.  I didn't find it hard, just tedious.  You end up switching between like the same three paradigms over and over and over as you fight enemies with inflated HP bars.  And then on top of that, there's nothing else in the game besides the battle system.  If you don't like the battle system there is literally nothing to like about the game.  There is no side content, no exploration, no minigames, nothing.  Just a lot of boring tedious battles.

I personally got really annoyed with FF12 for a few reasons.  But I was a younger player and probably needed to grow up a bit to really enjoy it.  I also think the changes in the Zodiac Job System would have really changed my perspective on it.  I read it and *loved* what it goes for the gameplay.

I liked FF13's battle enough... Probably because I was good at it while a lot of others noted its difficulty, so that was something.  But it reaallly started to weigh on me with the point you mentioned: There is NOTHING else to do in the entire game.  FF13-2 admirably went to lengths to fix that* at least and expanded on what the initial FF13-1 (Beta version) should have been.  I almost think the PS3 gen of RPGs took a step back in what they offered players in exchange for goddamn cosmetics (yeah I'm generalizing, shame on me).  But all of FF7, 9, and 10 offer what is probably the most extensive and varied "endgame haps" in the entire series.  To go from that to basically playing to fulfill bizarre living epitaphs[?] and build the best weapons in what is probably the most obnoxious weapons upgrade system ever was a real fucking drag. 


*between watching an LP of Lightning Returns and from what I've played of the rest of the FF13 saga... I think 13-2 is probably the series' highpoint.
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Yggdrasil
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« Reply #817 on: April 07, 2014, 04:47:50 AM »

I really didn't want to get into one of those arguments again...

What are you talking about? You guys are the ones that start with the salty BS and can go on about it for a few pages. xD

Has been like that here and other places for a while now. It doesn't bother or anything, I just find a bit funny the apparently brooding mood you guys get by talking about this.
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Tintaglia
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« Reply #818 on: April 07, 2014, 05:14:13 AM »

I think my main beef with the Final Fantasy franchise is how it still overshadows much more worthy RPGs simply with the weight of the name. I don't think it's by any means a terrible series now, just a mediocre one that's just not my cup of tea. It just gets so much attention for something that isn't top-of-the-line JRPG stuff, and I think it's more about the series' past than about the recent games being all that relevant. Even here, people would rather post 55 pages of posts discussing how bad this game is rather than talk about RPGs they think are good. Heck, even I'm doing it while claiming I don't even care! >_<

Oh well, c'est la vie.
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Holykael1
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« Reply #819 on: April 07, 2014, 05:24:28 AM »

I think my main beef with the Final Fantasy franchise is how it still overshadows much more worthy RPGs simply with the weight of the name. I don't think it's by any means a terrible series now, just a mediocre one that's just not my cup of tea. It just gets so much attention for something that isn't top-of-the-line JRPG stuff, and I think it's more about the series' past than about the recent games being all that relevant. Even here, people would rather post 55 pages of posts discussing how bad this game is rather than talk about RPGs they think are good. Heck, even I'm doing it while claiming I don't even care! >_<

Oh well, c'est la vie.

Pot calling the kettle black.. If you don't want this "mediocre" series  to be talked about, dont talk about it. Admitting that you are being an hypocrite doesn't eliminate the fact that you are part of the problem in your own perspective.

Can we at least agree that the twist at the very end of LR was unnecessary, stupid, and cheapened the whole series?

To me it was harmless.. Didn't think much of it, I liked the fact that atleast
Code:
it was a world without mythology because the mythological beings were the root of all the problems in the old world, the fact that it's supposed to be "earth" is irrelevant to  me, I like the idea of the ending I don't really care if it's supposed to say FF XIII's world became earth afterwards or wtver.

As far as  Kevadu's post goes. Yeah if you didn't like the combat, the game will be pretty unbearable because of one of the problems of that game for me even loving the combat is the fact that there is so much of it, no quiet time, no side activities, no distractions, FF XIII felt like a huge grind in some places, Grand Pulse was a breath of fresh air because even though all the sidequests were all fights atleast that part of the game was HUGGGGE and very relaxing to explore and walk around in  not to mention that the environments were jaw droppingly beautiful and the music was fantastic. And also, you need more than the same 3 sets of paradigms, If  you only use 3 sets of paradigms you are probably not very good at thhe game, I doubt you would even beat it.
The game made full use of it's systems, all the roles were extremely relevant, synergist, saboteur and sentinel were just as fundamental as Ravager, Commando and Medic.
Fully agree with Dice aswell, XIII-2 was easily the pinnacle of the series even though I thought LR had better gameplay/customization and was generally more fun to play. XIII-2 was not only excellent gameplay wise but it also had a fantastic villain, some really good characters with extremely well executed back stories(easily the best part of the trilogy (Noel/Caius/Yeul)), the music is some of the best in the series too and it was damn fun in it's own right.
The XIII series has generally cheesy dialogue but it's the kind of cheese that I can get into, I imagine how LR's ending could be very cringeworthy for many people but as I was attached to those characters it was very endearing to me. Execution wise, there are some standout moments but I agree that it's not very good in that respect. I'll take the contents of the actual stories over the execution any day so that's why I don't really complain too much about the narratives.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 05:43:03 AM by Holykael1 » Logged

Aeolus
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« Reply #820 on: April 07, 2014, 05:45:43 AM »

I am not an apologist. I like what I like and I am not afraid to defend what I like regardless of the status quo. I don't love things blindly I might add, I am no fanboy either. This applies to anything, XIII is just an example.
And I think you overrate how much I like FF XIII xD. 999/VLR are FARRRRRRRRRRRRRR superior(it's a completely different tier of experience). And for clarification my FF rankings would be as follows 7 > 10 > 9=8 > 6 = 13-2(though I tend to give 6 the edge) > LR = 4 > 12=5=13 > 2 > 1.
I don't dislike any of them and even with 1 at the bottom I like it quite a bit and as you see the 13 games are not that high. I just can't relate to the hyperbolic negativity, that's all, I enjoy many aspects of the XIII games even if they are not perfect but I tend to look for reasons to enjoy something and not the other way around.

Apologies man. The way you worded your previous post sounded like you were calling anyone who didn't like the XIII's trilogy's plot stupid.


That said, my thoughts on the XIII's trilogy's plot is that its about on par with the entire Megaman X series. Sure its generally an entertaining overall experience, but there are some really stupid parts to them as well that drag said experience down (of course, the biggest difference is that generally speaking, you can excuse some of the lamer parts due the nature of the series being broken up into smaller and far more numerous installments, some of which were clearly phoned in (unfortunately, some of the dumb can't be excused due to being contained within some of the more pivotal entries; made worse when those entries are also badly made (I'm looking at you MMX5)), but with the XIII trilogy, you've got dumb at some point in all three games and you can't really turn a blind eye to any of them without essentially discarding a huge chunk of plot). Anyways, that's the reason why I'm not all that willing to give the XIII trilogy a shot; I've been down that rabbit hole before and I'm not looking to repeat that mistake.


My thoughts on FFXII was that when it first came out, the game was generally entertaining enough for the main plot given the vast nature of the environment and the sudo-ARPG-ish-like nature of the game kinda reminding me of Secret of Mana and the plot having shades of FFT's plot (and not those fucking FFTA games), but the end/postgame sucks ass and left me feeling a bit bitter by the end. Basically, the game never really comes together at the end, leaving the war/politics on the sidelines for a dungeon crawl through two very annoying environments (Crystal Valley/Pharos Lighthouse) and having two mediocre final bosses (Cid and Vayne; Gabranth is little more than a speed bump when it finally comes time to deal with him); and on top of that, dungeons like the Imperial Research Facility and the Leviathan really take away from the everyman approach to your characters (you're basically mowing down faceless mooks, and even dreaded Judges are little more than speedbumps; whereas in FFT, most of your party for most of the game is made up of equally faceless mooks to all the other faceless mooks in the game, to the point where you can recruit them from opposing teams, and even your main characters are generally speaking, only marginally better (with the exceptions of T.G. Cid, Rafa, and Malak) than the rest).
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Yggdrasil
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« Reply #821 on: April 07, 2014, 06:01:20 AM »

@Aeolus: Is kind of hilarious how I can't agree with much of what you post most of the time. *sigh* Oh well. :T

I think my main beef with the Final Fantasy franchise is how it still overshadows much more worthy RPGs simply with the weight of the name.

As far as I've seen over the years that's only half true. The rest of your post is your opinion and I respect it even if we don't share the same point of view.

Also, is virtually impossible to talk much about the games themselves on a good chunk of gaming sites with how miserably repetitive people get about their own negativity. That's mainly the issue that plagues not only XIII but the entire the series (ones more than others). Is not reflected on every site of course, but is something a few times is hard to ignore.
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Holykael1
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« Reply #822 on: April 07, 2014, 06:13:19 AM »

I am not an apologist. I like what I like and I am not afraid to defend what I like regardless of the status quo. I don't love things blindly I might add, I am no fanboy either. This applies to anything, XIII is just an example.
And I think you overrate how much I like FF XIII xD. 999/VLR are FARRRRRRRRRRRRRR superior(it's a completely different tier of experience). And for clarification my FF rankings would be as follows 7 > 10 > 9=8 > 6 = 13-2(though I tend to give 6 the edge) > LR = 4 > 12=5=13 > 2 > 1.
I don't dislike any of them and even with 1 at the bottom I like it quite a bit and as you see the 13 games are not that high. I just can't relate to the hyperbolic negativity, that's all, I enjoy many aspects of the XIII games even if they are not perfect but I tend to look for reasons to enjoy something and not the other way around.

Apologies man. The way you worded your previous post sounded like you were calling anyone who didn't like the XIII's trilogy's plot stupid.

What I meant with that part is that when many times I see people justifying their hate for the story of FF XIII(or why they think the story is fundamentally a piece of shit with no place for objection which is the type of mindset that drives me nuts) , they say things that directly contradict plot points and/or character motivations(not saying it's always the case but one big example is how many people follow Spoony's review of the game when that review is so idiotic, one of his biggest points is "All the characters had to do was nothing" and that point only shows how shortsighted his "analysis" is, if you want me to explain why that quote is retarded I will gladly do so). Making their hate seem as dumb as they claim the game is. I am speaking generally here, fortunately this website is full of awesome people that have tact in sharing their thoughts. Also as you see, I don't resort to personal insult, I am simply tearing apart things people said without resorting to ad hominem, I never said anyone was stupid for not liking it and I also do know, because I have seen it with my own eyes, that there are people out there who dislike the stories for completely valid and understandable reasons.

My wording is a little bit aggressive because I don't react well to putrid/poorly justified negativity. When I am negative myself I try to be respectful towards people who like the things I am being negative about. For example I dislike the Zelda games but I don't find joy in constantly telling fans of that series how much the games suck  in my opinion. In fact I actually enjoy hearing people talk about their passion for these games, it makes me have some kind of appreciation for them even if they are not my thing.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 06:59:30 AM by Holykael1 » Logged

Klutz64
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« Reply #823 on: April 07, 2014, 10:23:42 AM »

I actually have the same problem with FFXII that Kevadu has with FFXIII. There's really nothing to do in the game but fight stuff. The only significant side quest was the Guild, and that was just a long chain of monsters to fight.
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« Reply #824 on: April 07, 2014, 01:30:11 PM »

I actually have the same problem with FFXII that Kevadu has with FFXIII. There's really nothing to do in the game but fight stuff. The only significant side quest was the Guild, and that was just a long chain of monsters to fight.

I agree. With both of you.

In FFXIII the problem was IMO worse, because their solution to fixing the "boring" towns and exploration was to get rid of them entirely, instead of trying to make them more interesting.
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