Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 30, 2014, 03:24:16 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
RPGFan Community Quiz!
Persona 3 FES Quiz is now OVER!
Winner was user: Monsoon!
335195 Posts in 13725 Topics by 2200 Members
Latest Member: Rgeneb1
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  RPGFan Message Boards
|-+  Media
| |-+  Single-Player RPGs
| | |-+  a quandry about rpg stories.
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Author Topic: a quandry about rpg stories.  (Read 2645 times)
Alisha
Posts: 2739


Member
*

Z0eila@hotmail.com Z0eila
View Profile

Ignore
« on: September 26, 2012, 07:53:40 AM »

can game A have a story that is considered better than gamd B but game B has a story that is much more exciting or enthralling than game A?
Logged


“Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from.”
Dice
Super Happy Fun Super Girl
AMG A GIRL
Posts: 10619


Tawdry Hepburn

Member
*


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2012, 09:38:18 AM »

Yes.
Logged

http://society6.com/Dice963
http://www.redbubble.com/people/dice9633

Support your local Dice (and pitch her ideas)!
Monsoon
Prinny Instructor
Posts: 882


Member
*


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2012, 09:39:52 AM »

Yes.
Logged

Mickeymac92
Posts: 1839


Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2012, 09:59:00 AM »

This is an odd question, but from my loose understanding of literature, I think that's very possible. I suppose it depends on the type of story they're trying to tell, and what type of stories you're interested in.

An example: I think it's generally agreed that Final Fantasy 8 is not as well written as Final Fantasy IX, yet there are those who still prefer FF8's story. Usually this is because FF8 was trying to be a love story, and those people just happened to really like love stories.

An example that's closer to what you're saying, but doesn't involve games: I watched The Godfather and Scarface back to back, starting with the Godfather. After about an hour, I got bored of The Godfather and switched to Scarface, which I ended up enjoying a lot more. Why? Well, for one, when I think of gangsters, I think of lots of violence, which Scarface had in spades, right from the word go. The Godfather may have had just as much violence, if not moreso, but it sure wasn't in the first hour, which leads me to the next reason: The Godfather has a slow, lengthy intro, and is probably slower-paced in general. That isn't always a bad thing, but in this case, it was so slow I didn't even have a reason to care about what was going on in the story - it was unclear who the main characters were and what the basis of the plot was, though they sure spent a helluva lot of time establishing the setting and atmosphere. Scarface, on the otherhand, hit the ground running, and in 20 minutes I was already enthralled, not just with the action, but with the story as well. I just found it so much more interesting because of that.

That's not to say The Godfather is in anyway a bad movie, but just because something is quantifiably "good" doesn't mean everybody's gonna like it the same.
Logged

http://myanimelist.net/profile/mickeymac92

“MY NAME IS POKEY THE PENGUIN I LOVE CHESS!! IT IS LIKE BALLET ONLY WITH MORE EXPLOSIONS!”
Ramza
Enjoying Retirement
Editor Emeritus
Posts: 9324


Member
*

TSDPatGann
View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2012, 10:00:30 AM »

An example: I think it's generally agreed that Final Fantasy 8 is not as well written as Final Fantasy IX, yet there are those who still prefer FF8's story. Usually this is because FF8 was trying to be a love story, and those people just happened to really like love stories.

That, or they dig the idea that FFVIII devs were trying to tell a very subtle and crazy story about Squall being dead:

http://squallsdead.com/
Logged

Starmongoose
Contributing Editor
Posts: 5299


Vicious Feminist

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2012, 11:43:05 AM »

I've read that three times now and I am still not convinced. If it's supposed to be Squall's future possibilities flashing before his eyes, what about instances where Squall isn't even present? Such as the Missile Base?

Where does Laguna fit in all of this? The group experienced the shared dreams in Disc 1, before Squall was impaled by Edea's Limit Break. So weird and extra-ordinary things WERE happening prior to that event.

The ending sequence where there are flashbacks of Rinoa's blurred face, during Time Compression, weren't the group supposed to focus on a loved one and place, in order to find their way back to their own time? The blurring of the face is him trying to concentrate on her despite the psychological effects the Time Compression is having.

Also he was shot through the shoulder for crying out loud, hardly a fatal wound. Edea's magic is more that capable of healing such a wound. Also, the author says why not just ask Seifer about SeeD, well for starters, Seifer never became a member of SeeD. Seifer believed that Squall was given secret information at his induction. Why heal him instead of just torturing Quistis? Well, why not? What if Quistis doesn't reveal what she knows, or dies through the torture. A backup would be good, especially the leader of the party who could have been given a secret briefing.

The author also talks about the prevalence of fate and destiny, and how often it is talked about. The Japanese LOVE talking about fate and destiny, it's a part of practically every game, anime, manga, novel. Nothing out of the ordinary about that.

While FF8 isn't my favourite of the FF series, I like that the events from Disc 1-4 are exactly what they are, events. Don't we play Final Fantasy games to experience the completely ridiculous, outlandish yet charming stories?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 11:45:17 AM by Starmongoose » Logged

SAVE THE PENGUIN!



Here to suck the fun out of games.
Yggdrasil
Posts: 6154

Member
*


View Profile Email

Ignore
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2012, 11:47:45 AM »

That, or they dig the idea that FFVIII devs were trying to tell a very subtle and crazy story about Squall being dead:

http://squallsdead.com/

Pfff~
Logged
Mickeymac92
Posts: 1839


Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2012, 02:09:31 PM »

While FF8 isn't my favourite of the FF series, I like that the events from Disc 1-4 are exactly what they are, events. Don't we play Final Fantasy games to experience the completely ridiculous, outlandish yet charming stories?

I don't. It's a plus for sure, but I play them because they're fun to play, at least for me. Just putting that out there...

With that said, you're right about FF8 basically being "events", as you put it. Some things feel there for the sake of it, not really being connected to what came before, or even making sense. I actually didn't mind that, and you could argue such a thing for a few other, well-like RPGs, too. It does have its charm, and it helps keep the game fun.
Logged

http://myanimelist.net/profile/mickeymac92

“MY NAME IS POKEY THE PENGUIN I LOVE CHESS!! IT IS LIKE BALLET ONLY WITH MORE EXPLOSIONS!”
Dice
Super Happy Fun Super Girl
AMG A GIRL
Posts: 10619


Tawdry Hepburn

Member
*


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2012, 04:39:15 PM »

And how, for the longest time I've divided the discs...
Disc 1: School Rivalry and Plots
Disc 2: B-- Witches
Disc 3: Space
Disc 4: Time

Maybe that's a part of the reason I can never remember the story line, I wouldn't know where to start or what to say.  WTF was the Lunar Cry about and why weren't people more terrified of their moon and why did scientists never work out the physics of how hordes of monsters make its way to Earth from their moon??
Logged

http://society6.com/Dice963
http://www.redbubble.com/people/dice9633

Support your local Dice (and pitch her ideas)!
Eusis
Administrator
Posts: 11797


Member
*


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2012, 07:22:11 PM »

Call of Duty says yes. Stupid ass plots, but they're thrillrides.

Generally I'd take something more intriguing and deeply satisfying, especially given that sometimes this "excitement" is some of the most boring stuff to me.
Logged
MeshGearFox
Posts: 8636


HERE ON RUM ISLAND WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN RUM!

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2012, 05:13:27 AM »

wrt Alisha's original comment, I have no idea what you're asking, but I'm assuming you're asking if it's okay to like something even if it's technically worse in some sense than another story. And yes, this is perfectly fine. It's called having an opinion, and this is a perfectly normal part of being human and having a soul which is SOMETHING I WOULD NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT.

wrt FFVIII, disc 1 was completely coherent and was going in a particular direction, and then that changed and was ignored completely when Disc 2 started. I mean, Disc 1 ends with Squall being impaled by a huge spike. And Disc 2 introduces Squall being like, "Welp, wasn't that some shit," and being never stabbed at all.

Did they just replace the entire writing staff at that point?

I don't have an issue with bizarre storylines, or storylines that go in strange directions, or storylines that feel sort of nonsensical and free-associative or comprised of events that just kind of happen. Actually in a lot of ways I really ENJOY that kind of thing. Hell I love Chrono Cross and Tales of Symphonia.

FFVIII's problem isn't so much that it has plot holes or parts that don't make sense or don't flow well. It's that the writers are shouting "Mulligan!" after any event that may have had importance.

- Squall's impalement. Let's say that actually was part of a mass hallucination brought on by Edea. There are actually themes about the subjective nature of reality in the game. The GFs messing with memory feeds into that. WHY not actually pick this up and use it as a theme?

- Squall's impalement. He was injured, but he got healed. Why not just acknowledge this? Have Squall mention that his shoulder and chest still hurt when he wakes up in the prison, instead of having him be all WAIT DID THAT HAPPEN.

- Squall's impalement. Getting a six-inch diameter sharp object wedged through your shoulder can still be incredibly fatal. That's not something you can just blow off.

- The NORG stuff. It happens. It has no repercussion for happening. Once it's done happening, it's never brought up again, and at no point is it ever really clear WHAT was going on. All JRPGs have little MacGuffiny quests like this. But the NORG thing just monopolized a lot of game real estate and was... idk implied to be really important?

- Quistis et al. surviving the missile base nuke thingy. It's obvious they didn't die, from a gameplay standpoint (you pick the party. The game would NOT accommodate wiping out characters arbitrarily selected like that). I don't think that Squall et al ever assume Quistis and the other two actually got killed.  They just show up at FH and it's like oh hey what the shit y'all doin here. What point does their fake death even serve?

- The orphanage scene. This pissed me off for a totally different reason than most people have. It's not some oh hey we all grew up together but forgot what a weird coincidence thing.

The orphanage scene makes it abundantly clear that Cid was raising a personal army (comprised of orphaned children), brainwashing them, and rewriting the memories of most of the main cast with GFs. They find out their entire life was a lie and they just... brush it off? And he continues to be portrayed as the good guy? Seriously?

- I seriously have no idea what was actually going on on Disc 3.
Logged

o/` I do not feel joy o/`
o/` I do not dream o/`
o/` I only stare at the door and smoke o/`

ZeronHitaro
Posts: 1162


Member
*


View Profile Email

Ignore
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2012, 05:41:19 AM »

Squall's impalement isn't a plot mulligan. It's one of the rare cases of a game going 'Oh yeah; we do have these mechanics in our world. Let's not pretend we don't for story drama sake'.

Allow me to make my point; you fight a Cactar. It uses 1K Needles. You basically get impaled 1000 times by several 6+ inch spears over your entire body. Know why the characters never mention it? Cure spells; magically heals all wounds be it a fish bite or a radioactive wave generating multiple 3rd degree burns from a 100 ft tall incarnation of a space-dragon.

So Squall gets impaled by ice rod. The Sorceress wants to interrogate him. Casts Curaga. No more impalement.

It's basic Final Fantasy logic. Questioning it is like questioning why Hobbes is alive for Calvin but not his parents. You're not going to ever get an answer; it's just a part of the story's reality you have to accept as part of the entry fee.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 05:45:06 AM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
Aeolus
This is the Monado's Powerbomb!
Posts: 6471


Little did he know, the fall damage would KO him.

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2012, 02:11:53 PM »

Doesn't explain Squall's facial scar. You'd think a Curaga would've patched that right up but nope.

Anyways, the entire problem with FFVIII's plot is that it's all about Bob Squall. Period!

You see, Squall is this awesome dude who gets all the bitches, up to and including, the resident JRPG Princess. Why? Is it because he's one of the few awesome dudes who can wield a goofy and impractical weapon gunblade? Is it because he's immediately competent whereas his commander, employer, & former teacher aren't? Is it because he can summon ice fairies, thunder gods, and the like? Is it because he can influence the past without the desire to change anything relevant need of a time machine? Is it because he is a SeeD? Is it because he's man enough to bumrush a sorceress in the middle a parade through the enemy capital? Is it because he gives no fucks about the man NORG trying to keep everyone down when the missiles a'commin'. Is it because he's the commander of Balmb Garden? Is it because he's solvin' the riddle of the Centra? Is it because he can jack a dude's jetpack in midair to use it to rescue his fair maiden yet again? Is it because he has floated through space in another unlikely rescue mission of his fair maiden? Is it because his romantic side plot blots out the sun and derails everything? Or is it because he's secretly JPop idol Gecht in disguise?

Well, whatever it is, we can all rest assured that none of it ever matters since it's all useless backdrop information anyways that not even the writers could be bothered to give any fucks about. All that really matters is that Squall is a c00l dude. Period, period, period!

Either way this FFVIII derail also makes no sense since in regards to the OP's question, it is neither. Hell, Legend of Dragoon is better in both the writing and entertainment departments, especially once the story puts Dart's quest for vengeance on the back burner in favor of "subtly" hinting at Rose's dark and mysterious past.

Another example: Xenogears. Game has an unfinished story, but you'll see people continue on about it's lack of a proper second disk even today. Why? Because the story is pretty entertaining, isn't cobbled together from a bunch of JRPG clichés, has a bunch of weird and silly sci-fi/giant robot anime references scattered about, and has characters who have more personality in them then anybody in FFVIII (especially Squall Seifer despite being the only character with an actual character arc); just take a look at Citan, a guy who's such an asshat that when it comes time for a boss fight he's conspicuously absent or rocking an excuse to duck out of the fight. If Xenogears had actually been allowed to be finished it would probably have been one of Squaresoft's better games, it's too bad that Square chose to focus on something else at the time instead. :hint:
Logged

In my vision, I see that one of us is going to KO the other.
ZeronHitaro
Posts: 1162


Member
*


View Profile Email

Ignore
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2012, 10:40:35 PM »

I was being half-serious/half-sarcastic. XD If you want to lay the fundamental problem out on the table there; you simply can't apply logic to any of Final Fantasy 8's plot, period, because of the way the story is told. According to the story; the very mechanics of the game (GFs, magic, ect.) literally exist in the story's world in a way that few games allow (as I said before, most games just hand wave that certain things exist as anything other than in-battle things to make the game interesting). The fact that the GFs are mentioned so prevalently and tied directly to key points of the plot (regardless of how silly those plots are) is the strongest proof. (A lot of the other game mechanics also have 'woven into the world' proofs as well.)

This means that, in argumentable theory, all of FF8's mechanics exist within the reality of Final Fantasy 8.

So why does this outright deny any applications of logic?

Rinoa.

If game mechanics exist in as reality in FF8 then the following exists: A wrist-mounted Chakarang launcher which adapts to mount any size of dog, negates the weight so a spindly teenage girl can lift and aim it with one arm, then fires the dog at sub-sonic speed which then explodes upon impact, flips through the air, and actually survives this multiple times.

It denies logic.
It denies physics.
It denies sequential thinking.

Ergo, none of these exist in the FF8 universe. Ergo, none of them can be applied under analysis. That's my thought-line anyway.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 10:54:09 PM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
pseudonym
Posts: 135


Member
*


View Profile Email

Ignore
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2012, 10:56:00 PM »

To the OP's question, yes, it can. It boils down to execution. A game can have a better story and suck in it's execution while a average story can be better through better execution.

Logged
Pages: [1] 2 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!