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Author Topic: Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward  (Read 16120 times)
Yoda
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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2012, 02:33:38 PM »

CRAAAAP this comes out in 5 days, I don't own either handheld, my bank account looks ... not good, AND I'm obsessed with 999.

THIS IS BAD.

Trade stuffs, go for the 3DS, cuz it's cheaper? :S



And sadly will probably survive longer as a console
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ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2012, 09:27:42 AM »

Just watched the OVA, found it hilarious that they completely flubbed a line of dialog. XD They said the whole Ally vs Betray nets a loss and gain of -2 to +2 when it's actually -2 to +3. Silly dubbers.

However I'm at a new level of '...holy crap' when they showed how the Ally/Betray system actually works. @_@ I thought you were actually in the same room with a single person doing a 1v1 thing. Not in as pairs having to guess what another pair is doing without actually seeing them.

So basically you're going to have to know who your opposing pair is, what their personality and mindsets are at base level, what their mentality at the moment is, how those individuals will likely react as a pair, what your partner's mindset is, how to convince your partner to go one way or the other, how your partner will react to your choice whether you agree or disagree with them, and how your opposition will react to your choice.

...damn. >.<

____________

Also I'm still confused on a particular point of the Ambidex game. A lot of the translated material in promos so far has mentioned that you need to hit 9+ to escape. But not only did this trailer just say '9' but I think very, very early teaser material said that at some point someone 'has' to betray. So...is it 9+ or 9 on the nose to open that door? If it's 9+ then it seems like a lot of the tension would just be gone out of this. Everyone always allies until all pairs hit 10. But for all I know there could be a limited amount of times the AB Rooms open (if they only open 3 times then everyone would be stuck at 8). However if it's 9 on the nose it makes for a very complicated set of circumstances as Betrayal is now a requirement (even more so if the limited voting number theory applies).

I also have to wonder how this voting process registers since it seems to be team-based. If your partner hits Ally and you hit Betray what does the team vote count as? Is it in order of who hit the button first is paired with who hit the button on their side first (I.E: Your partner jams Ally without discussion but you hit Betray while their first button press is Betray and their second Ally; does that mean your partner gets the Ally - Betray while you get the Betray - Ally)? Is there a hierarchy system (I.E: Person with the most BP's vote counts for the team in a disagreement)? Too many questions about this game's nuances. >.< Hurry up Tuesday!
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 09:36:12 AM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
Dice
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« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2012, 02:13:03 PM »

The privately owned retailer I hit up usually breaks street date...but.... FUCK YOU MIDTERMS, AAAUUUUGGGHH.

I already gave this gave one star out of five because Troy Baker is doing a voice.  <3
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ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2012, 02:47:47 PM »

Wait...my math previously was wrong. All BP starts at 3 right?

If everyone allies 3 times that's 3+2+2+2 = 9.

That's...a ridiculously easy solution to this 'game'. There has to be a wrinkle to this scenario; either that or there's going to be a huge case of 'idiot ball' going around near the beginning of the story.
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John
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« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2012, 03:54:08 PM »

Considering that Zero is one of them (assuming that the system works out like 999), clearly s/he's not going to make it just so everyone gets out lickety split.

As well, you can't have 100% faith in strangers - if you could get out in a set of two betrays, wouldn't you?
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ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2012, 04:33:42 PM »

It was implied in the OVA by Phi that one of them was Zero but...eh; I'm skeptical. The whole game seems to be a whole 'lesson' about trusting people. Seeding yourself into it specifically to cause trouble would be counter-intuitive. If anything I think Zero isn't in the group but specifically placed a few paranoid people in who'll think that and vote betray either to save their own hides or because their complex makes them that darn sure someone 'is' Zero.

Eh, not really. Then again as with most things I'm a rare anomaly amongst humans. I'm the type who'd refuse to murder even if it meant my own death; even with nothing to gain.
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Kevadu
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« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2012, 04:39:36 PM »

Have you never seen this particular type of game theory before, Zeron?  It's a textbook example.  Well, not necessarily with the killing and stuff, but look up "normal-form game".  It's not a new idea.
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ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2012, 06:38:11 PM »

Actually I'd never heard of that before. *gives it a light read* Hmm, I think I can understand the theory but not sure it will (or should) apply here for the reason you brought up; assuming I'm interpreting this correctly.

The Normal-Form game scenario described doesn't account for 'Death'. If it were just a game of numbers choosing Betray, according to that theory, is always the 'best option' because you're always guaranteed a 'small loss' or a 'huge gain' as opposed to a 'small gain' or a 'huge loss'. But choosing to Betray in VLR, by IRL logic, makes the Betrayer a murderer. Even if your vote isn't the one that reduces BP to 0 the fact that you Betrayed is what made it possible for the future Betrayer to create that 0BP scenario. If you hadn't voted Betray that person wouldn't have been low enough to die. As such your hands are just as unclean as the one who committed the final Betrayal.

As such, at least if your morality (I know it's just a game; I'm just speaking from a character mindset here) dictates that murdering someone is 'wrong', then Betray has a much higher loss value attached to it then Normal-Form Game Theory would imply in its non-lethal vacuum.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 06:40:18 PM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
Kevadu
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« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2012, 07:07:03 PM »

I don't think it's that simple.  What these games ultimately illustrate is the importance of trust.  The societally-optimal solution (meaning the one that brings the biggest benefit to the most people) is always to have everyone cooperate, so cooperation seems like a no-brainer, right?  But you have to trust that the other person is also going to cooperate.

You say that you would never choose betray because it could potentially bring harm to another person, but what if your opponent didn't think the same way?  You're locked up with a bunch of people you know nothing about and you're told to either cooperate or betray.  You may want to cooperate, but if you cooperate and they betray you get screwed while your opponent gets the largest possible pay-off.  That wouldn't make you bitter?  Or fearful, for that matter.  What if it happens again?  Betraying might be necessary as the 'safe' choice to save your own neck.
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ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2012, 09:31:40 PM »

If you're asking my response from a personal opinion I'm basically going to have to be direct in order for my viewpoint to make sense.

In short: No on all counts.

Required Elaboration: There are a variety of factors going into why I would react in such a manner.

Primarily; I follow the tenants of the Word-of-Faith Christian religion. In very simplified terms this means I have no literal 'fear of death'. 'Saving my own neck' is a sensation that will never come into play simply because dying is of no concern to me. My physical body dies, my soul moves on; in time all the people I care about will end up there as well. There really is no reason to be overly concerned with self-preservation.

Supplementing this is personal experience which has proven this is how my psyche actually reacts to such a scenario and isn't merely dogmatic repetition. Approximately three years ago there was a severe blizzard in my town. By the time my ride left word the snow was approximately 2ft. deep on average and well over 4ft. deep in drift zones. Their car jammed up in the snow most of the way home in an unfamiliar part of town to me (we missed the exit due to bad visibility); their backup ride came and I opted to walk the rest of the way because I was certain my apartment wasn't too far off.

Important to note; I was only wearing a light jacket for protection. My pants were damaged and I had damaged shoes that were already of the 'holey' design. It turned out there was a good, very long stretch of high fencing across the field I thought I could straight shot. Wound up trudging through the deeper 4ft.+ drifts for well over 40 minutes and falling into a ditch or two of higher snow, making me immobile for a short time period. The point of this is for me simply say 'Yes; I have been in a situation where I was quite certain I was going to die and the potential of doing so was very real. No; it did not generate fear, bitterness, or cloud my thought processes.' That is quite possibly the only reason I survived.

As a final addendum, which I would rather not elaborate nearly as much on, I have experienced betrayal in a more close to home sense than what 'random strangers' would generate. 7 years ago? I would've had to agree with the point of betray inducing bitterness as part of my own reactions. These days? Not at all. I've had an incident or two more recently (1-1.5 year time period) and can honestly say I have something one would probably equate to a 'zen meditation' reaction when dealing with humanity's darker aspects.

However all that said, as I prior stated; I fully acknowledge my interpretations and perceptions are not common. (Nor do I place any stance in them being 'right'; this is merely how I see things.)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 09:33:37 PM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
Ramza
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« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2012, 11:16:15 AM »

Step 1 - Find a friend with a PSP or a 3DS
Step 2 - ?
Step 3 - PROFIT!

It's vita, not PSP. I own a PSP.
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Monsoon
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« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2012, 12:49:57 PM »

Whatever, I just want to solve locked-room puzzles and watch anime characters of questionable or erratic moral fiber do some crazy shit.  Zero Escape sounds like the place to be for that.
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ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2012, 01:04:24 PM »

So just for fun I want to ask a question that you may have already considered to some degree:

What is your very first choice in the game going to be? To Ally or to Betray?

I'm torn between two answers to that- I'm either going to go Betray (and Betray every time) just to see how 'bad' things get if I do; or I'm going to just refuse to choose. From the looks of it there will be a time limit to how long you can hold your decision; I'm quite curious if not choosing forces an early game over or if Phi will literally, physically make you press a button.
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Yoda
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« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2012, 02:17:53 AM »

Whatever, I just want to solve locked-room puzzles and watch anime characters of questionable or erratic moral fiber do some crazy shit.  Zero Escape sounds like the place to be for that.

Awesome
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Farron
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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2012, 06:23:52 AM »

My first choice will probably be Ally.
Sure it's just a game but I can't seem to go against what I would do unless I'm going for an especific ending or an "evil" route, like renegade in Mass Effect or Dark side in KOTOR.

But depending on how persuasive the characters you are paired up with are I may hit betray just for the hell of it.
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