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Author Topic: N. Korea "possibly" Conducts Nuclear Weapons Test  (Read 1575 times)
Jimmy
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« on: October 09, 2006, 01:07:23 AM »

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15190745/?GT1=8618

Not very good news if you ask me.

Discuss.

EDITS: Topic name character limit!
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beans
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2006, 01:29:10 AM »

It was inevitable at the rate North Korea's been going.

I get the very bad feeling that North Korea will invade the south within the next few years....
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Hidoshi
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2006, 02:21:34 AM »

I'm amazed that a man of Kim Jong Il's intelligence can run a nuclear program. I truly am.
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Parn
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2006, 08:55:01 AM »

It's easy.  Just starve your citizens to death so you can put money towards military programs while telling them the west is to blame.  I'm of the opinion that we should position some Ohio class ballistic missile submarines nearby and level the place with some Trident IIs to set an example, but then, that's probably why I'm not a world leader.

...okay, not really but, the issue definitely needs to be addressed.  Quite frankly, some form of military action needs to occur, because we've been playing the negotiations game for years, and you can't reason with some people.  This extends to Iran as well, because they're next in line to play this stupid game.
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Bogatyr
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2006, 10:38:25 AM »

Obviously I am in no support of these countries, but I would like to know your opinion about the whole "You West have them, why can't we?" argument? Just curious...
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Ryos
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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2006, 01:29:17 PM »

Considering the North Koreans are pushed to starvation while Kim Jong-Il furthers his crazy (contrary to some claims of his sanity, I'm inclined to disagree) or self-preservation plans, I'm of Parn's mind that diplomacy just doesn't work with some people.  I thought we learned this lesson from that whole Hitler thing, but maybe not.  

At this point I'm a smidgen concerned that if we don't do something about this, the Japanese will start arming themselves for defensive purposes.  If that happens, the escalation of the arms race may put the Cold War to shame...and I don't think Kim Jong-Il is the sort of fellow who understands the potential gravity of the tactic of deterrence.
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Parn
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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2006, 09:08:06 PM »

Quote from: "Bogatyr"
Obviously I am in no support of these countries, but I would like to know your opinion about the whole "You West have them, why can't we?" argument? Just curious...

Mine's simple.  The United States is currently the strongest nation in the world, and maintaining this position is of the utmost importance to the United States and its allies, regardless of popularity.  Any country not allied with the United States that pursues nuclear ambitions is detrimental to this desire, and so they must be stopped.

In other words, being fair doesn't mean jack when all it takes is one psychopath to make the decision to launch a nuke, setting off a chain reaction that destroys the world.  This sounds cold, but it's the honest truth: what North Korea and Iran want is completely irrelevant.
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Raze
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2006, 11:46:16 PM »

It's really tough to say. I'm sure they DO need nukes to stop us from attacking them, Bush flat out put them on the list calling them part of a 'Axis of Evil'. There's really nothing else they can do to protect themselves.

 It's really a issue of do they JUST want to deter the US? Or do they want to deter the US so they can go wild attacking their neighbors? One's justifiable, as sad a situation as it is. The other's not.
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Jimmy
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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2006, 12:04:29 AM »

Yea, pretty much what Parn says. North Korea (the government anyway) has shown they are openly hostile toward the rest of the world, and South Korea especially. Iran, while they say they are developing their nuclear program for energy (which I wouldn't entirely rule out), they have also been a pretty openly hostile country. The problem is tyrannical leaders who would use that nuclear power in offensive attacks against others.

It sounds elitist and snobby, and IMO it really is elitist and snobby, but who has nuclear capabilities and what they intend to do with it is something world leaders and the citizens who may be affected by it need to take into consideration.

Personally I'm against nuclear energy and weaponry no matter the form. Fission is just way too unstable and creates too many harmful side-effects for me to see the logic in using it, but that's just me.
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Dave
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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2006, 05:00:16 AM »

The fact of the matter is, if they have nuclear weapons, they already ARE a nuclear power.

No matter what happens from this point out, if they've got it they've got it, and that means we have to take the nuclear aspect into consideration upon entering their country.

Also, as a people we cannot use the "they don't deserve them because they keep their country in such bad shape." Um, have you BEEN to India? Pakistan? Israel? Egypt? Hell, there are people starving in the UNITED STATES. That didn't stop us from making one, and it sure won't stop them.

It's obvious that North Korea wants our attention. To be frank, it would appear they're trying to goad us into war. Look what happens to every other country we go to war with: We build them new cities, we pay for their military and we wind up saving the country. (Pay no attention, of course, to Vietnam and Iraq.)

Is it at all unreasonable to think he would actually WANT war, just so he could get the US feeling guilty enough about utterly annihilating a country (that, aside from its potential nuclear capability, poses zero threat) to the point of paying for its renovation? As twisted as a person he's shown himself to be, it wouldn't shock me if he decided that Hiroshima/Nagasaki-esque devastation pales in comparison to becoming part of a global juggernaut. (See: Japan)

It would seem logical to have people in place that could negotiate in secret with members of the North Korean military to start the gears for a coup. I just don't see us going into North Korea, with our military already busy in Afghanistan and Iraq, as being the best strategy. It could rally the military behind Kim Jong-Il. In addition, you run the risk of terrorist organizations we aren't even DEALING with yet getting angry. The last thing you want is for their country to be united against us. If their military (or a PART of it) were to stage the beginnings of a coup, and THEN we entered to provide support from the air, ground and sea, you would have the opposite effect. In addition, by us supporting the coup publicly after it is already in process, we can then be sure that the next leader of the country isn't just as bad.

In my opinion, any other method greatly increases the chance of them resorting to nuclear options. By destabilizing the military from within before ever entering, you can hopefully dispel any possibility of them launching one.

And nuking a city full of starving people shouldn't even be considered at this point except as the utmost desperate action necessary; the very last resort.


/$0.02
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Ryos
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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2006, 05:28:16 AM »

Quote from: "Dave"
Also, as a people we cannot use the "they don't deserve them because they keep their country in such bad shape." Um, have you BEEN to India? Pakistan? Israel? Egypt? Hell, there are people starving in the UNITED STATES. That didn't stop us from making one, and it sure won't stop them.


Yeah, the only difference is that those countries aren't intentionally trying to butcher their people in effect for the sake of trying to uphold the glory of a questionable regime.  If you haven't seen it yet, it's a couple years old, but there's a disturbingly accurate account of the inhumane living conditions in North Korea at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6951629397402742053&q=north+korea+starve

As far as a potential coup option, I don't know how well that would work out when you figure there's a very large army with high morale (well, at least for now).  In general it'd just be hard to mobilize a rebellious force because Jong-Il has a very tight control over North Korea with eyes everywhere.  I'm sure that more than a few people would willingly support  an invasion if it looked like we wanted to commit to one, but without that sort of guarantee a bad life looks like a better alternative to no life.
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Bogatyr
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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2006, 11:12:02 AM »

Quote
Mine's simple. The United States is currently the strongest nation in the world, and maintaining this position is of the utmost importance to the United States and its allies, regardless of popularity. Any country not allied with the United States that pursues nuclear ambitions is detrimental to this desire, and so they must be stopped.


I see. I think that's legitimate enough. I mean, I think it's stupid when people try to find reasons as to why the US, Russia - among others - have the right to own a nuclear arsenal and countries like Iran and North Korea don't. I know it's all part of the whole formal, pseudo democratic circus = making up legitimacy where there is none.
However, putting things into this perspective is as legitimate as one could ask. "We have them because we are more powerful than you, and we don't want you to have, as we see you as a threat to our way of life, to our countries and to our people."
Who says force is not legitimate? I say right of might to them.

Dave,

Don't forget you tried that in Vietnam. I mean, you chose a side to support, instead of making war with the whole country. In that sense, that's not so apart from supporting a coup.
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Angelo
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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2006, 11:58:50 AM »

As long as the world's major powers are committed to not using their nuclear weaponry, posessing such weapons in a small country is leverage.  The threat of the weapon is an effective bargaining chip in the world arena, especially for removing sanctions.  I would assume this is North Korea's goal.  Let's face it, any country starved for petrol in this modern world is failing at basic provisions.

As for why it's a problem for the superpowers...small countries arming themselves in this way complicates any global nuclear disarmament efforts.  I think it's time the United Nations realize that economic sanctions are anything but a deterrent to nuclear armament.  All it does is rally support within the affected populous for whatever crazy things the regime is doing in response to the sanctions.
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