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Author Topic: Ex-Cop Begins Killing Family Members of Officers, Claims it's for a Greater Good  (Read 5503 times)
Desert Walker
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2013, 04:25:54 PM »

I wonder if the police would have searched 400 houses in a week (some without a warrant, I am certain) if they were after a suspect that had posted a killing list that didn't include any cops...for some reason I have doubts.

To be honest I have some semi-founded doubts about how well 'trained' any particular police officer may be at any given moment/location. My old man has worked in the prison system for well over a decade, I forget his exact rank but I know he pretty much sits somewhere high up on the food chain. Anyway he's moved from state to state as his position escalated and he's got quite a few stories about the ineptitude of people they hire to guard the criminals the system throws their way. Even in some of the 'high-flow' prisons discipline and training can be so lax that some of these people shouldn't be in change of pre-schoolers; let alone dangerous inmates.

My father worked as a firearms instructor for police, Border Patrol, and civilians for many years so I know what you mean.  He was amazed at how much better civilians performed--consistently--than police officers or Border Patrol simply because they practiced regularly and actually gave a damn about being good.  He was amazed at how many police would have to qualify once a year, and decide that that meant they only needed to practice with their firearrm one week a year or so (just enough to get up to par to pass the qualification), rather than practicing off-and-on throughout the year to keep their skill level up if it was needed in the field.

Which dovetails into both of my points nicely:  1. I feel that a police officer should be a professional and that means more than doing the mare minimum training required to keep their job. and 2. They should be held to the same standards of accountability that a civilian concealed carrier would if they shoot the wrong person, in particular when they do something like, say, unloading 50 rounds into a single truck which indicates trying to do more than just stop a threat.

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Maybe I'm being naively optimistic but it seems like the solution should be less 'Teach you how to kill someone with plausibly deniability' and more 'Here; have some proper training. Here; have some standard issue defensive equipment (like advancing Kevlar vest tech for something wearable entirely on duty) so you don't feel like it's a quick-draw contest to survive.'

Seems reasonable to me.

If I was in LA, I would take my vacation now and get the fuck away for a month...

This also seems reasonable to me.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 08:48:04 AM by Desert Walker » Logged
Kevadu
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2013, 04:32:48 PM »

"No command, no instruction, no warning. They just opened fire on them."

Not that I support Chris Dorner, but the LAPD is making themselves look like psychopaths.  Even if it wasn't a case of mistaken identity (different make, model, and color truck...) that is not proper procedure.  They've clearly prioritized shutting Dorner up over anything else.
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2013, 12:05:55 AM »

"No command, no instruction, no warning. They just opened fire on them."

Not that I support Chris Dorner, but the LAPD is making themselves look like psychopaths.  Even if it wasn't a case of mistaken identity (different make, model, and color truck...) that is not proper procedure.  They've clearly prioritized shutting Dorner up over anything else.

I don't condone what he's doing, but it does at this point seem as though his point about 'nothing changing unless something drastic happens' is pretty true. I agree that they've decided they want to shut this guy up. Perhaps he even expected this kind of insane retaliatory response, knowing that if they do this kind of stuff enough, it'll make people call for restructuring.
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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2013, 11:36:00 PM »

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if they were after a suspect that had posted a killing list that didn't include any cops

Keep in mind that part of it may also be that it could cripple their manpower for not just things like this, but also really low profile crimes.
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Desert Walker
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« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2013, 08:49:56 AM »

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if they were after a suspect that had posted a killing list that didn't include any cops

Keep in mind that part of it may also be that it could cripple their manpower for not just things like this, but also really low profile crimes.

This is delightfully optimistic. :)


I wonder how much their manpower was crippled by all the time and men it took to raid 400 + houses in a week and how much manpower they're going to lose when they're buried in paperwork because of lawsuits that inevitably arise from raiding many of these houses without warrants.

I don't think this is about manpower - this is about crossing the blue line.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 10:25:50 AM by Desert Walker » Logged
MeshGearFox
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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2013, 10:16:35 PM »

So apparently the police that raided his cabin were planning on burning him alive from the get-go.

Interesting.
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« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2013, 03:37:00 AM »

For those who want a tl;dr on the story, he's dead.

There are some recordings across the internet claiming to be feeds that imply that the fire was set intentionally. The police deny this, naturally.

I guess the take home message here is, you, as a citizen of the United States, are entitled to due process and a fair trial. Unless you piss off a cop, then we'll make sure you burn alive even if it means turning an innocent's truck into swiss cheese while we're on the hunt.
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Agent D.
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« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2013, 03:46:26 PM »

For those who want a tl;dr on the story, he's dead.

There are some recordings across the internet claiming to be feeds that imply that the fire was set intentionally. The police deny this, naturally.

I guess the take home message here is, you, as a citizen of the United States, are entitled to due process and a fair trial. Unless you piss off a cop, then we'll make sure you burn alive even if it means turning an innocent's truck into swiss cheese while we're on the hunt.
Ahhh dude..that's a little extreme. This guy was a psycho, and though I can say what happened is what happened in actuality, the man is dead and innocent lives are no longer in jeopardy. Society just wants a scapegoat in all this, and they can't fire the police so they make a good target. If he'd have been a DMV worker on the warpath, I'm sure the antagonistic commentary would have been directed at the DMV instead of the police.

I don't think the police are complete angels in this scenario, but imagine how they feel? Some crazed ex cop is going after them, and the people they're supposed to be saving from the psycho are pointing fingers at them and blaming them for what's happening? There's got to be a few cops who still actually play by the book...
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2013, 02:36:56 PM »

Yeah but their response pretty much... validates his manifesto.
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Desert Walker
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« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2013, 04:56:42 PM »

Indeed.  Raid a few hundred homes without warrants and shoot several people that happen to look sort of like him* or have a vehicle that looks similar to his and well, you can expect to be demonized by the public.  I'm not saying that ALL of the demonization resulted from this behavior, mind you, some was a reflexive anti-cop reaction, but much of it resulted from their behavior.  The truth is, we can talk about demonizing cops or society needing a scapegoat all we please, but if a civilian (or two) carrying a gun put 50 rounds into the vehicle of an innocent person because it resembled someone he thought was trying to kill him (or one of his co-workers) and injured or killed said person in the process he would be demonized by the media (and the rest of the country) in addition to spending most of his life in jail for it.  I can't bring myself to feel that police should be exempt from this.

That said, I do not fault the cops for getting in a shoot out with him in the end rather than trying to take him alive.  Sneaking up on somebody that's heavily armed and blasting at you (or ducking and dodging through a hail of bullets with your trusty bullet proof vest) is something that only happens in a movie.  Under most circumstances I think that police should behave like...well...police and try to hold themselves to a higher moral standard, but in a situation like that extreme defensive violence is entirely warranted.  If they did burn his place down (and we'll probably never know if they did it or not - if there is any evidence of that it will most likely be covered up) that was a pretty shit move, though, even given the situation.

BTW, I'm not reflexively anti-cop or anything--the kind that feel the need to raid the houses of alleged non-violent offenders and go in all guns blazing excepted--but I do find it ridiculous when cops can get away with shit without so much as a couple of weeks without pay or a disciplinary write up that would result in a civilian being jailed for life and new laws being passed based on his actions and I think it's quite reasonable to suggest that this needs to change.  All I really ask for is that police be held to the same legal standards as civilians in regards to unnecessary violence and for people to recognize that not holding them to those standards is going to lead to corruption.


*On that note, I'm a bit surprised that LL Cool J didn't get shot.  Must have been smart enough to keep his head down until this was over. :P
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 05:11:59 PM by Desert Walker » Logged
Annubis
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« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2013, 01:55:59 PM »

Well it's not just LAPD... this thing here is local to me.

http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2013/02/21/video-embarrassante-pour-la-police-de-trois-rivieres-2

19 year old kid stole drugs in a drugstore (addicted to them he says). This is clearly something that needs 4 officer beating the shit out of you while you are on the ground, having put your gun on the ground and being in a submissive position.

Right now the cops are on paid leave... beat people = free vacation...

When will somebody have the balls to put the cops not over the law?
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Desert Walker
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« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2013, 04:59:22 PM »

There was a case last year where police raided a probationer's house at night without knocking, sneaked into his roommate's room and (in the dark) started screaming at the sleeping man.  Not surprisingly, half-asleep and having no idea what the fuck was going on and who these strangers were that were yelling at him he reached for a flash light on his night stand to see what was going on.  The two police in the room responded by shooting him sixteen times; somehow he survived.  They then proceeded to lie and claim that the man had informed them that he had a four pistols in the room with him and was going to shoot.  There was no pistol in the apartment, only a rifle in a separate room.  In spite of their shooting an unarmed man and lying about it, it was determined that their actions were justified due to their safety being of the highest importance and no charges were filed.

I mean, fucking seriously, really?  If a civilian has to shoot someone in their own goddamn home in self defense they're going to get the third degree for it unless a castle law is in place* and go to jail for it in some states because apparently someone invading their home doesn't give them reason to think their life is in danger, but if a cop breaks into someone else's house and shoots them, well, that's just dandy!  Something needs to change and it needs to change soon.

*Even if a castle law is in place they will still have to worry about technicalities like whether the person had broken into their home or was merely in the process of breaking in (essentially, whether their foot was in the door or just kicking it down), so even that isn't particularly clear-cut unless one is wearing a badge.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 05:03:28 PM by Desert Walker » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2013, 03:02:44 PM »

I think the technicalities of the Castle Law vary from state to state. Around here I'm pretty sure it's interpreted as follows:

-Do you perceive the immediate threat of violence/criminal activity against your person, family, or property?
-Is this area your 'property'? (Inside/Around the house, inside your car, inside the boundaries of your yard, ect.)
-Is a clear path of retreat, to the best of your knowledge, available?
-Are you blocking their path of retreat?

If the answers are Yes, Yes, Yes, No, then you pretty much have free reign to use any methods you feel required to defend yourself.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 03:04:59 PM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
Agent D.
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« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2013, 03:27:57 PM »

So basically, cops are the badguys unless they do something good, then they're the ok guys? I don't get it, we see what people have become today, psychotic freaks with weapons and knowledge capable of destroying many lives, what do you expect the police to do? It's hard enough to get competent people to want to become police officers, they get nothing but shit every day from the people they're supposed to be protecting. Cops are racist, cops are jerks, cops are out to get you, cops are crooked....fuck, I wouldn't want to risk my life to save assholes like that, and especially for the pay they're offered to do it. So a SERIOUSLY SMALL percentage of law enforcement personal are in fact assholes, fine. Same can be said for massive corporations, military branches, and the government, but not everyone in these places are in fact out to simply make your life miserable....most actually are not.

When my dad got arrestted for disorderly conduct last year, which was COMPLETELY UNFOUNDED and mostly a single nervous officer trying to display a a controlling presence, I didn't blame the cop for doing it, I blame all the other 6 foot 3 psychos out there who would in fact be dickheads and try to do something he couldn't stop. It sucks....blame society for forcing their hands.
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« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2013, 03:33:20 PM »

The problem is that the police force often put their worst foot forward leading to these stereotypes. These stereotypes are in place and so hard to shake because ... guess what? A lot of police officers do them and make the rest look bad by association. I recall one of my friends getting harassed and heckled by police officers because he was Hispanic and the officers thought he looked shady.

Part of the problem also lies in the fact that there are no real qualifications required to become a police officers. Whereas in the military you are required to be disciplined and act a certain way, or your ass is history, a lot of police officers are basically thugs who want to carry a gun legally, and abuse their power and authority whenever they can.

There's enough of the blame pie to go around, but the police aren't as clean as you imagine.
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