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Author Topic: XBOX: A New Generation Revealed, May 21st  (Read 31925 times)
MeshGearFox
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« Reply #330 on: June 08, 2013, 12:15:38 AM »

Microsoft kills game ownership and expects us to smile -- Source: Eurogamer

"Almost exactly a year ago, at the end of an E3 press conference in which Microsoft heralded fitness software, Kinect, Internet Explorer, Bing and dying action games as the future of entertainment, I wrote that anyone who has paid attention to Microsoft's business over the years should not be surprised by its apparent lack of self-awareness.

"If we are entertained by what Microsoft chooses to do for its own gain," I suggested, "then that is simply a happy coincidence."

Guess what? The coincidence is over."

I have to wonder how many people who hate the Xbox One so much also think Steam is the best thing to ever happen. We can change those points ever so slightly and Steam would be guilty of the same thing.

-You do not own the games you buy. You license them.
-Discs are only used to install and then license games and do not imply ownership.
-People can play games installed on your computer whether you're logged in or not.
-Multiple people can be authorised to play these games on a different computer, but not at the same time, similar to iTunes authorised devices.
-You can't trade in your games
-You can't give games to friends
-Your account allows you to play the games you license on any computer.
-Your computer must connect to the internet a predetermined period of time to keep playing games.
-When playing on another computer with your account, you can't use your home computer.
-Live TV, Blu-ray and DVD movies are exempt from these internet requirements.
-Loaning and renting games will not be possible
-Valve may change these policies or discontinue them at any point.

I'm not saying that I LIKE the direction MS is taking; in fact, I hate it. The point remains, though. Steam is functionally identical, but people claim it's the best thing ever.

This is a decent reply to your comparisons I think, from VideoGameandTech

Steam on the PC and the XBO are different scenarios. Let's go over why:

Buying in. People owned PCs before Steam existed and don't pay Valve a penny to buy one. XBO requires you fork over $400 (or whatever the price is), the majority of which goes to MS.

Competition. Don't like Steam or how it works? Buy game from anywhere else. Don't like how MS runs their system? $400 paperweight. Competition has several secondary effects, like discounting, keeping business honest, etc. Steam has those; MS won't.

Sales. AAA, multi-million seller, Game-of-the-Year winners go on sale regularly. We know how Steam works with its pricing. Microsoft? Don't yet know. We have seen when the same game is sold digitally and brick-and-mortar that the digital version does not get comparable sales.

Trust. We trust Steam because we've seen how it works. MS has not earned our trust. And being our only XBO option, it's an easy position to abuse.

Offline usability. Your PC works perfectly fine without an internet connection. Steam will still play your installed games. XBO goes dead in 24 hours (if it won't play games, it's dead to me).

Value-added or taken away. Steam's introduction and existence does nothing to take away from our computer gaming experience. Some of us even like its features; the rest can ignore it. XBO and its online DRM are a major step backwards from the 360 in every ownership aspect.

So while they are both digital distribution platforms, Steam and XBO are very different beasts.

Steam also has no physical component. That's a huge thing. Steam games don't go out of print. Steam games generally COST less because you're not... paying for a box/manual/disc.

Quote
-Your computer must connect to the internet a predetermined period of time to keep playing games.

Also, no, steam works offline. Always online stuff is just for managing achievements. Steam's DRM basically just... requires steam to be running, offline or online.

Quote
-When playing on another computer with your account, you can't use your home computer.

That's not really a good complaint against either the XBox One or Steam. You're not, physically, going to be playing the same game on two computers at the exact same time. Well, okay, exception is when you want to do multiplayer with multiple people in the same house. iirc steam supports spawn copies if you want to do this. Still, this was never feasible for consoles anyway. So...
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Kevadu
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« Reply #331 on: June 08, 2013, 01:17:18 AM »

Buying in. People owned PCs before Steam existed and don't pay Valve a penny to buy one. XBO requires you fork over $400 (or whatever the price is), the majority of which goes to MS.

I really can't agree with this one.  First of all, what reason is there to upgrade a PC this day and age besides gaming?  My main PC for doing work is like 8 years old and it does everything I want just fine.  We've really reached the point where PCs are fast enough for most things.  Not to mention that a lot of people seem to be migrating more towards smartphones and tablets.  Gaming PCs absolutely do require a monetary investment beyond what you would normally need to pay.

Second of all, what is this "the majority of which goes to MS" BS?  Margins on consoles range from razor thing to negative.  It's quite normal to sell a new system at a loss, just to encourage adoption and make money on the software.  The majority of that pricetag goes to the people who actually make the components and assemble things, as well as middlemen.  MS gets squat.
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Agent D.
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« Reply #332 on: June 08, 2013, 01:25:50 AM »

We all know MS makes its profits off Xbox Live ads. 60 bucks a year to use the service, and advertisements no matter where you look.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #333 on: June 08, 2013, 01:48:43 AM »

Buying in. People owned PCs before Steam existed and don't pay Valve a penny to buy one. XBO requires you fork over $400 (or whatever the price is), the majority of which goes to MS.

I really can't agree with this one.  First of all, what reason is there to upgrade a PC this day and age besides gaming?  My main PC for doing work is like 8 years old and it does everything I want just fine.  We've really reached the point where PCs are fast enough for most things.  Not to mention that a lot of people seem to be migrating more towards smartphones and tablets.  Gaming PCs absolutely do require a monetary investment beyond what you would normally need to pay.

Second of all, what is this "the majority of which goes to MS" BS?  Margins on consoles range from razor thing to negative.  It's quite normal to sell a new system at a loss, just to encourage adoption and make money on the software.  The majority of that pricetag goes to the people who actually make the components and assemble things, as well as middlemen.  MS gets squat.

Microsoft's XBox division is apparently massively in debt.

Also a gaming PC costs about as much as a console, last time I checked.
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Lard
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« Reply #334 on: June 08, 2013, 02:56:39 AM »

How can they be in debt?

Is it because of the insurance program they had to introduce because of the RROD?
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Taelus
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« Reply #335 on: June 08, 2013, 02:58:02 AM »

I agree with Mesh's points almost wholesale, but I've been arguing with Ash about this for days now. It's just a situation that some people aren't going to agree on, and that's okay-- because none of us have to buy an XB1 if we choose not to.

This reductionism I continually see that says "XB1 IS THE SAME AS STEAM BUT EVERYONE LOVES STEAM" is missing very important shades of distinction.

And you can get a very solid PC to play games on for $400. I know, because I built one for a friend a few months ago. We spent $500 total, and that included a brand new bitching monitor, cheap speakers, and a mouse/keyboard. It runs Borderlands 2 at higher-than-console-quality settings, and does everything else you'd want a PC to do.

The only point that is true is that-- yes, you could be said to not "own" your games on Steam, but considering my games are more accessible via Steam than they are as CDs sitting in my parents' attic 900 miles away, I am infinitely more connected to them than I would be otherwise. The doom and gloom and "WHAT HAPPENS WHEN STEAM DIES" is paper-thin, if you ask me, because Steam isn't going anywhere for the forseeable future, and when it does, they've already said they'd unlock the encryption.

Microsoft's console will be gone and forgotten in ten years when the hardware becomes outdated, and if the NEXT Xbox isn't backwards-compatible, your games WILL disappear. It's equally possible that they'll unlock them somehow, too, and we can't discount that, but the life-cycle for a piece of console hardware versus a PC-based distribution platform that exists on Mac, Linux, Windows, iOS, and Android is significantly shorter.

Mesh basically summed it up:

Quote
Value-added or taken away. Steam's introduction and existence does nothing to take away from our computer gaming experience. Some of us even like its features; the rest can ignore it. XBO and its online DRM are a major step backwards from the 360 in every ownership aspect.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 03:00:42 AM by Taelus » Logged

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« Reply #336 on: June 08, 2013, 03:04:46 AM »

Wait, just to be clear here I never said you couldn't build a gaming PC for $400.  I was objecting to the statement I was quoting which seemed to imply that PCs were basically free, because they're not.

Besides which, don't most non-gaming people mostly use laptops these days?  I don't think most $400 laptops will run games very well...
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Taelus
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« Reply #337 on: June 08, 2013, 03:17:20 AM »

Wait, just to be clear here I never said you couldn't build a gaming PC for $400.  I was objecting to the statement I was quoting which seemed to imply that PCs were basically free, because they're not.

Besides which, don't most non-gaming people mostly use laptops these days?  I don't think most $400 laptops will run games very well...

Ah, okay, true.

Although I won't comment on the laptop thing-- I don't have any numbers in front of me and I know plenty of people who use both, so I'm not sure.
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« Reply #338 on: June 08, 2013, 06:14:05 AM »

im not gonna lie im a sony/nintendo leaning fan. and all ms is doing is throwing gas on the fire.
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« Reply #339 on: June 08, 2013, 07:36:47 AM »

Snip
I can't really address any of this without repeating what I've already said, so I'll just do a cliff's notes:

-The Xbox One has competition. It's called the PS4. People (including myself) have stated we'll buy the PS4 over the XB1 so long as Sony doesn't pull the same shit. Hell, at this point the Wii U would offer up healthy competition.
-Like Kevadu has said, PCs aren't free. The only reason to upgrade a PC is for gaming. Yes, a PC can do other things but without gaming you could easily buy a $150 laptop on sale for everything other than gaming.
-Steam was universally reviled when it first came out. They built their current image from scratch. It remains to be seen whether or not MS can pull off something similar. I doubt it, but stranger things have happened. Point being that Valve has their audience's trust because they've had Steam running for ten years now and had the time to cultivate a positive image when the initial reaction was anything but positive.
-MS's 24 hour BS is ridiculous, and while I've never tried Steam in offline mode, I imagine that eventually it stops letting people play their games. If MS were to adopt the Steam methodology of 'dialing home,' I suspect people would have less of a problem with it?

Tycho has made a post that reasonably states my position. The only thing MS can't really justify is the 24 hour stuff. And like Stephen said, if there's no agreement on this, it's okay. I certainly don't plan on buying a Xbox One. Most of my posts are for the sake of discussion and comparison.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 07:41:31 AM by Ashtrot » Logged

Annubis
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« Reply #340 on: June 08, 2013, 07:55:43 AM »

The only reason to upgrade a PC is for gaming.

Sorry, but this argument is, for lack of polite term, bad. There are plenty of reason you can need a powerful rig that have nothing to do with gaming.
If your home computer is also your work computer, there are many jobs where you would need a 1000 or even 2000$ rig.
Even if it's not work and just a hobby the same applies.

3d, video, audio to a point, encoding, encrypting/decrypting, large data manipulation, server, development software (adobe, virtool, etc.)...
I've also seen a fair share of dev kits that require a powerful computer because they are badly coded and the extra power keeps them from crashing all the time.
Even watching movies requires a descent computer. Watching a Blueray disc requires something like a mid dual core with a descent graphic card, else you can see a loss of frames.
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« Reply #341 on: June 08, 2013, 09:06:52 AM »

You make a good point, and I concede that an expensive computer does way more than an expensive console. Still, much like Kevadu, I just take issue with the implication that Steam is a 'free service,' because the price of entry is whatever you pay to get a PC capable for your own individual need.
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« Reply #342 on: June 08, 2013, 09:28:09 AM »

I think it's important to note that we are comparing Software and Firmware. If I want a gaming PC, I'm not tied down to using Steam, but if I wanted an XB1 I'd have no choice but to deal with their draconian ownership policies.
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Aeolus
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« Reply #343 on: June 08, 2013, 11:18:48 AM »

-The Xbox One has competition. It's called the PS4. People (including myself) have stated we'll buy the PS4 over the XB1 so long as Sony doesn't pull the same shit. Hell, at this point the Wii U would offer up healthy competition.

Hell, even Nintendo is letting people transfer their old Wii VC wares onto the WiiU even if there's a nominal fee attached to the process (and given the discount given out for transferring, your sum total over the two consoles comes out to be even to the marked price of the exact software). And its not like the fee is for nothing either given the interface and performance upgrades.

So yes, even Nintendo are beginning to get their act together in regard to online services. This is no time for Microsoft to rest on their laurels like they have been by taking such regressive steps.
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Agent D.
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« Reply #344 on: June 08, 2013, 04:48:57 PM »

Aren't steam games like dirt fucking cheap? Also, isn't steam a free to use service on existing PCs? Meaning no membership fees?

You all know that in order to use the cloud gaming service, you're gonna be paying for xbl gold. Yeah it's only 5 bucks a month, but now that's added to the game cost, which is still going to be 60 dollars per title. Another point, aren't pc titles generally 10-20 dollars cheaper than console variants?

Long story short steam wins because it isn't a massive ripoff.
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