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Author Topic: Battle of the New Atheism  (Read 7358 times)
Hidoshi
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« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2006, 02:16:25 PM »

Wondering if that first statement is pointed at my post.

If it is, I don't advocate zealotry of any kind. I think zealotry of any kind is abhorrent, because it defeats the entire message of any system of belief, be it religious or non-religious. A secular zealot does no good, as Russian and Chinese Communism has proven to us.

I'm not saying Abrahamic concepts of God are bad. Certainly not. All I'm pointing out is that atheism seems to react to only the basic concept professed by these religions, and does not even bother to consider the profundities there, nor any other religious system.
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GrimReality
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« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2006, 04:12:40 PM »

My simple thought is this. The Atheists primary problem with religion is belief in something that is not there, has no evidence to support it, and simply makes no sense. Many atrocities have been done in the name of some "god" who didn't seem have a say in things either way. While Dawkins writes as if these things may not have occurred had it not been for religion, I disagree with him. Man will always find another excuse to kill each other.
The targets are those who actually believe in a "god" watching over everything they do, Christianity in specific. More peaceful "religions" like those described by Hidoshi would not fall under this category. The wired article is NOT representative of all that Dawkins has to say. It is oddly skewed, despite being written by a (presumedly, as I don't read it) technology-oriented magazine.
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Bogatyr
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« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2006, 04:58:31 PM »

Quote
A concept of God does not necessarily imply an all-powerful or even fatherly figure that controls everything. Certainly, the core of Hindu deity worship has nothing to do with that. In even more abstract terms, a Buddhist does not believe in a deity per se, but in a state of total oneness, which may well be related as a reflection of a God that is pervasiveness itself. Thus, the word "God" does not imply an individual at all.


Yeah, but I don't think he is concerned with bashing non-monotheist religions.

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My simple thought is this. The Atheists primary problem with religion is belief in something that is not there, has no evidence to support it, and simply makes no sense.


There is no "scientific" evidence to claim one thing or the other, to both believers and atheists though.
As to not making any sense, well, I think the exact opposite. The universe with all it's balance and order makes no sense without God.
I don't think it makes much sense to say we evolved from CO2 either.

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Many atrocities have been done in the name of some "god" who didn't seem have a say in things either way. While Dawkins writes as if these things may not have occurred had it not been for religion, I disagree with him. Man will always find another excuse to kill each other.


At least in the Northern Hemisphere, before Christianity, everything was a lot more brutal and violent. Human sacrifices, whatever other bloody rituals pagans were into. Wars? They were as ordinary as changing your clothes.

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The targets are those who actually believe in a "god" watching over everything they do, Christianity in specific. More peaceful "religions" like those described by Hidoshi would not fall under this category.


That's BS and biased? More "peaceful" religions? I don't think so.
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Dave
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« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2006, 11:16:51 PM »

I'd just like to say that perhaps the reason the overall concept of God, by non-believers, is lumped into the category that Christians, Muslims and Jews attribute it is due to their overwhelming influence on the way we run our lives.

Or it could be because you don't hear the words "thousands dead" in regards to almost any religion on Earth besides those three.

I'm not saying that's a legitimate reason for debate purpose, but then again, there's never been a President of the United States that didn't believe in an individual-being-representation of God.

Me? I don't know if there is one, and I don't think it's worth spending the rest of my life trying to decide for myself. I also think the idea of an all-powerful omnipotent being watching over a bunch of (by comparison) retarded neanderthals and, despite allegedly having the ability to fix all of the world's problems and cure every illness and blah blah blah blah blah, you still see things like the Holocaust, Darfur, Northern Ireland, the Crusades, AIDS, cancer, muscular dystrophy, etc., is a ludicrous idea entirely.

Of course, someone has ALWAYS been there to tell me the reason why all that stuff happened is because people didn't believe in the RIGHT God. Yeah, being all omnipotent and stuff, he's so insecure as to allow for human suffering for the universally important and necessary reason that you don't worship THIS way to THIS name.

People I used to go to church with try to come up with a response when I say straight up, "You're telling me that because they didn't profess devotion to God in Jesus' name, Anne Frank and Gandhi are in Hell together."

Sorry, not only do I not have to believe that, but you can't convince me that I have to respect it either. Flame away.
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« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2006, 11:38:13 PM »

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Or it could be because you don't hear the words "thousands dead" in regards to almost any religion on Earth besides those three.


Hinduism's led to some recent killings, but I suspect it's more social/political than actually religious.

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Logick
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« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2006, 11:41:49 PM »

Also the 3 biggest killers of this last century were hardly religious.  Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot.(funny their views of religion are similar to this group)

And yes Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Zoastorism, etc. etc. all have their hands just as bloodied as the Abrahamic faiths.  Its just in the west since we know very little about them, we kinda developed a romantisced view.
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Hidoshi
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« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2006, 11:49:38 PM »

I think people like scapegoating religion thanks to the rise of materialistic philosophy in recent times. But hey, might just be my viewpoint.

Either way, I don't see religion or secular lifestyles as cause for death. It's all in the ego of an agenda-driving leader. A Mao and a Bin-Laden are the exact same sort of wolf, just wearing different sheep's clothing.
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Morwan
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« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2006, 01:24:11 AM »

Atheism, by definition, is the lack of a religion, not the active hatred of another religion. Someone who is asocial avoids socalizing with people and dealing with societal constructs, but does not go actively work against them like someone with an antisocial personality does.  In a similar fashion this new atheist bullshit is really anti-theism, and shouldn't be trying to say that 'true' atheists follow them.

Quote from: "Bogatyr"
At least in the Northern Hemisphere, before Christianity, everything was a lot more brutal and violent. Human sacrifices, whatever other bloody rituals pagans were into. Wars? They were as ordinary as changing your clothes.


Right, because there was no such thing as civilization prior to the introduction of Christianity. All the Greeks and Romans did was sacrifice children and kill each other, instead of developing mathematics, inventing democracy, or laying the foundations for modern medicine.
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Hidoshi
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« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2006, 01:34:45 AM »

Well technically the Indians developed democracy, but hey, all the other stuff's pretty on the mark.

Also: Crusades are the new Godwin's Law, just so everyone doesn't jump on that bandwagon.
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Eusis
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« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2006, 01:38:23 AM »

Quote from: "Hidoshi"
Also: Crusades are the new Godwin's Law, just so everyone doesn't jump on that bandwagon.

Only if the internet en masse resorts to it, and/or ties it into something completely unrelated in the long run, like kittens.
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« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2006, 02:14:31 AM »

Quote from: "Bogatyr"
My opinion matters! Even though I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about! It still matters, though, even though it's a heap of total bullshit!

Okay.
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« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2006, 10:15:56 AM »

I was watching this programme on the learning channel, called the Monestary, and they had this sort of atypical, Christian hating Athiest on, all he could do was attack the Abbot, call him stupid, and insinuate that the Virgin Mary was a whore.

I would like an honest answer from an avowed atheist. Why is it that so many athiests tend to lean towards being anti-christian, instead of simply not beleiving in theistic concepts? Something about the tranquility of Buddha is untouchable (even though Buddhism isn't a religion as we perceive it in america, there being no god to worship, it works much more like a philosophy) but; Jesus... man, they can't lay into the poor guy enough.
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Bogatyr
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« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2006, 11:29:01 AM »

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Right, because there was no such thing as civilization prior to the introduction of Christianity. All the Greeks and Romans did was sacrifice children and kill each other, instead of developing mathematics, inventing democracy, or laying the foundations for modern medicine.


That's a load of crap. First of all, I didn't say they didnt' have any positive effect on civilization, merely stating that before Christianity there were wars, there was violence, everything which is being attributed to Christianity, in an even greater scale. You seem to disregard all that because they "developed mathematics, invented democracy, and laid the foundations for modern medicine". By your same logic, I could say it is BS what people say about religion killing thousands, because it's not like all the civilization developments were stopped during Medieval times, when Christianity was more powerful - quite the contrary, it were the Christians who preserved the ancient classic writings.
Secondly, you act as if the Northern Hemisphere was populated by Greeks and Romans solely, which is totally laughable. There were Slavs, Celts and Germanics too, all of them with their constant wars and violent rituals/custumes.
All in all, I said wars, violence and brutality existed before Christianity - in an even larger scale - in response to someone who attributed those things to the Christian religion, and then you jumped to say there were mathematics, democracy and science before it. How moronic is that? Totally nonsensical, two different things altogether.

I was going to mention the whole Eastern religions - spirituality if you will - being more "peaceful" deal, but it was done already, so I will just add a little piece of info. Take for instance medieval Japan. How was that peaceful? Musashi, who beside being the greatest samurai ever lived was a "philosopher" of sorts as well, deeply believed the way of the sword was the only way of true balance and "peace". His swordfighting - which led to the killing of hundreds - was deeply interwined with his spirituality.

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Quote

you still see things like the Holocaust, Darfur, Northern Ireland, the Crusades, AIDS, cancer, muscular dystrophy, etc., is a ludicrous idea entirely.


You aren't one of those who believe God is BS because there is "so much evil in this world" are you? Because, no offense, this is a totally flawed reasoning, and even childish.
I will try to be short, I don't mean to convert you or anything, so I will just give you a brief explanation.
First of all, there is something called free will. If God was to show up here and make all those things disappear, there would be no doubt about his existance, he would be imposing on us his existance and superiority.  The mere thought of believe would become a non-issue. There would be little use for free will or real faith, and that's not the point of Christianity. But I guess you probably heard that before, so I will end this here.
The second point, and this one is the most important, is that you - well, people in general - tend to think in good and evil through totally earthly and humane perceptions, which is flawed, as God is beyond that. What I mean is, good and evil are purely human concepts, and God can't be analysed or understanded by our own limited and flawed perceptions, which can't grasp God fully. And here is the most important aspect of this, when you think about a truly horrid tragedy, you think, that's so evil, how can God allow that? He can't be real! Take for instance the Beslan massacre. Poor children were killed by terrorists, I know that's revolting, and the first thing which goes through someone's mind is "that's total evil and unfair, either God doesn't exist, or he is just evil". But here lies the error in the reasoning. You are thinking through purely earthly and humane patterns. What is the death of those children compared to life after death and the immortality of Soul? They just passed from an inferiour plane to a higher one of true "hapiness" - for the lack of a better word. Yeah, the people who were left behind will grieve and suffer, no doubt about that, but I what mean is, in the grand scheme of things, when you thing about the immortality of their souls, their deaths mean "nothing", it's just a passage.
I know that if you don't believe in God nothing of that matters, after all you won't believe in the immortality of the Soul or in life after death, and that's fine, but if you do believe in those things, that's a totally sensical and logical reasoning, which explain the whole issue of "bad" things which occur down here.
In short, that means that considering those things evil, should be the consequence of not believing in God, rather than the cause? You see what I mean? Not trying to convert you, I don't believe these things can happen like that, much less through an internet board, just putting things into the right perspective.

Leyviur,

You have already proved you are a total retard which can't argue a single point, so if you don't have pictures to show, you better just shut the fuck up.
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Ashton
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« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2006, 11:37:44 AM »

I'm very sorry your ego is so fragile and brittle that it shatters so easily. Please accept my humblest apologies for damaging your pitiful pride. As a peace offering, I'll direct you to a site that will aid your frail psyche and help ease your crybaby syndrome here.

No hard feelings, eh chap? ;)
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Bogatyr
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« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2006, 11:45:42 AM »

Who says you can shatter my ego? If you mess with me, I am gonna answer, as simple as that.
Plus, you better decide which I am, either a fascist, or an EMO crybabe, because those two things can't really co-exist. So, which shall be?
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