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Subject: 999 (Nintendo DS)
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Author Topic: FINAL FANTASY XV, This is a fantasy based on reality.  (Read 17814 times)
Klutz64
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« Reply #240 on: May 01, 2014, 02:26:29 PM »

Yeah, I have to agree that the plot of FF8 was kind of not good. Just a bunch of loose plot elements thrown together into something only mildly coherent. The worst bit to me was the whole thing with Rinoa getting taken over by Ultimecia which would mean she's also a sorceress except that fact stays relevant for only as long as it takes the party to rescue her.

Pretty much describes every plot element in the game, it only contributes to the story until the story no longer needs it to contribute.

If FFXII's battle system was too much like FFXI's, then magic might actually be worth a damn. As it stands, its pretty dull unless you play on Active Mode with limited gambits, but then the later fights become impossible.
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« Reply #241 on: May 01, 2014, 02:47:46 PM »

Yeah, I have to agree that the plot of FF8 was kind of not good. Just a bunch of loose plot elements thrown together into something only mildly coherent. The worst bit to me was the whole thing with Rinoa getting taken over by Ultimecia which would mean she's also a sorceress except that fact stays relevant for only as long as it takes the party to rescue her.

Pretty much describes every plot element in the game, it only contributes to the story until the story no longer needs it to contribute.

If FFXII's battle system was too much like FFXI's, then magic might actually be worth a damn. As it stands, its pretty dull unless you play on Active Mode with limited gambits, but then the later fights become impossible.

Buffs were worth a damn because they persisted out of battle. But yeah, the system kinda handled magic really badly due to needing to query it, charge it, then wait for the system to say its okay for spells to be fired now which lead to instances where enemies/bosses would just stand their punching your face in while your Curaga spells just sat there in the queries mocking you and your slow horrible death at the hands of the system abusing an engine exploit to beat you. Also, the Pailing. Fuck the Pailing and fuck you Zodiark for spamming it like a motherfucker!

Although admittedly, that part of the engine seems to have been inherited from X-2 rather than XI.
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« Reply #242 on: May 01, 2014, 03:06:02 PM »

I just want the story to not be as terrible as FF8 and the combat not as boring as FF12.

Is that too much to ask?

I liked the story to FF8 and the combat to FF12 so I guess yes.

+1
I dislike the orphanage twist as much as anyone but that's not enough to ruin the brilliance of other plot threads.

Like the assassination plot or NORG....

I actually really liked Disk 1 all the way up to the end of it. It all really started going higgledy piggledy from the start of disk 2 onwards for me. I had issues with some aspects of the assassination plot like why the hell did they have Irvine and the backup sniper at the same place but nothing major about any of disk 1 bugged me.
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Holykael1
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« Reply #243 on: May 01, 2014, 03:41:07 PM »

Yeah, I have to agree that the plot of FF8 was kind of not good. Just a bunch of loose plot elements thrown together into something only mildly coherent. The worst bit to me was the whole thing with Rinoa getting taken over by Ultimecia which would mean she's also a sorceress except that fact stays relevant for only as long as it takes the party to rescue her.

Pretty much describes every plot element in the game, it only contributes to the story until the story no longer needs it to contribute.

If FFXII's battle system was too much like FFXI's, then magic might actually be worth a damn. As it stands, its pretty dull unless you play on Active Mode with limited gambits, but then the later fights become impossible.

Why would they continue to refer that she was a sorceress? Was there any reason to? Does the game have to scream, hey you are a sorceress every second after the issue is resolved?
Obviously the fact that she was a sorceress was kept a secret from the general public or she would be ostracized otherwise. The information that she is a sorceress is safe with her friends and Laguna, the president of Esthar.
Ultimecia was a product of the discrimination against sorceresses, hated and driven mad by her contemporaries disdain against her resulting in her isolation and lonelyness(not to mention the prophecy that she was going to be killed by the legendary SeeD).. She ended up perpetuating her suffering by unwillingly establishing the loop of her own failure.

As far as NORG goes.. It's an inoffensive plot thread, is it the fact that he is a big yellow fat thing that annoys people lol?
He comes from the Shumi Village, a village full of those beings and they are established as having sentience and intelligence. It's just a different species I don't see anythng wrong with it.

FF8 is a weird game, I'll give you that but it's more quirky aspects don't affect me at all.

Oh also regarding the assassination failure.. Irvine was the only one who hadn't used GF's up until he met the party so he still had memories of the orphanage, he hesitated in killing Edea because he still remembered her as their matron, their mother essentially... so yeah there you go.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 04:07:13 PM by Holykael1 » Logged

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« Reply #244 on: May 01, 2014, 04:09:26 PM »

Re assassination attemt: More importantly why did they feel the need to drop massive gates, totally giving away the fact that shenanigans were afoot and giving Edea time to put up the shields.
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« Reply #245 on: May 01, 2014, 04:44:29 PM »

As far as NORG goes.. It's an inoffensive plot thread, is it the fact that he is a big yellow fat thing that annoys people lol?
He comes from the Shumi Village, a village full of those beings and they are established as having sentience and intelligence. It's just a different species I don't see anythng wrong with it.

Less that he exists at all and more 'why is he trying to call the shots/pull the plug on Cid's operation now/living in Garden's basement?'. At best, you could say that he was woefully inept at that whole 'usurper' thing he was trying to pull, but its more likely that the writers just wanted to toss in a divided factions/questionable allegiances sort of thing like the whole SHIELD versus HYDRA thing going on in the Marvel Movie-verse right now but didn't bother putting in any effort beyond "Are you with Cid or NORG?" (especially since after you take out NORG that's the last you ever hear from his supporters, and outside of the masked dudes, everybody was still there and carrying on like nothing ever happened).

Additional plot threads of questionable quality: The Prison Break sequence, the White SeeDs, Rujinn and Fuyinn jacking Balmb (not the Garden, the Town where Zell grew up in).
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« Reply #246 on: May 01, 2014, 04:44:45 PM »

Re assassination attemt: More importantly why did they feel the need to drop massive gates, totally giving away the fact that shenanigans were afoot and giving Edea time to put up the shields.

You mean this? http://youtu.be/Zuc62lLk6kQ?t=13m46s
That was part of the show, it was a planned thing, don't forget that SeeD was being helped by Rinoa's father who knows everything about the parade and probably had a hand in it's design for strategic purposes.

As far as NORG goes.. It's an inoffensive plot thread, is it the fact that he is a big yellow fat thing that annoys people lol?
He comes from the Shumi Village, a village full of those beings and they are established as having sentience and intelligence. It's just a different species I don't see anythng wrong with it.

Less that he exists at all and more 'why is he trying to call the shots/pull the plug on Cid's operation now/living in Garden's basement?'. At best, you could say that he was woefully inept at that whole 'usurper' thing he was trying to pull, but its more likely that the writers just wanted to toss in a divided factions/questionable allegiances sort of thing like the whole SHIELD versus HYDRA thing going on in the Marvel Movie-verse right now but didn't bother putting in any effort beyond "Are you with Cid or NORG?" (especially since after you take out NORG that's the last you ever hear from his supporters, and outside of the masked dudes, everybody was still there and carrying on like nothing ever happened).

Additional plot threads of questionable quality: The Prison Break sequence, the White SeeDs, Rujinn and Fuyinn jacking Balmb (not the Garden, the Town where Zell grew up in).

"After the assassination attempt the sorceress is furious. She orders Balamb Garden and Trabia Garden destroyed while she takes Galbadia Garden for herself. NORG is furious at Martine for revealing Balamb Garden's part in the plan. He decides to do all he can in order to calm the sorceress's wrath and intends to hand over those involved in the assassination to show the Garden's sincerity. Cid refuses to do so, and as a result, an all-out war breaks out between those who side with NORG, and those who side with the Headmaster.

NORGs cocoon
NORG's cocoon after being defeated.
After losing the battle, NORG summons Squall and his party to his chambers and explains his fear of the sorceress and his plan to hand them over to her in order to save "his" Garden. When Squall refuses to obey NORG and outright declares the Garden doesn't belong to him, NORG goes mad and, driven by obsession and selfishness, attacks the SeeDs. Defeated and despairing, NORG closes himself away in a cocoon-like form.

NORG isn't seen again after his defeat, but if the player visits NORG's chamber again, they can meet a couple of Shumi who intend to retrieve the cocoon and apologize for NORG's behavior. "

Basically he was afraid of the sorceress.

Why are those of questionable quality? If it's something to the same extent as NORG, it's probably beccause you already forgot a lot about the game. FF8 has a very cool kind of story structure in that a lot of the twists are foreshadowed way before they happen and if you don't make the connections after the twists happen you are not going to even understand the plot(many people still have no clue why Irvine failed to shoot Edea.. simply because when the orphanage twist happened they didn't think back to disc 1 to connect the dots), for example the fact that Irvine doesn't shoot Edea is an allusion to his memories of the orphanage. "Edea's" speech is an allusion to Ultimecia being in control and an establishment of her motivations:
"...Lowlifes. ...Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate
my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one you have
condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to
the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The
cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed
many nations? Where is she now? She stands before your very eyes
to become your new ruler"

it's kinda like the thing where Tifa lies about Cloud's memories being right when he falsely recalls them in Kalm. Her confusiion will only make sense later after you learn about the truth. FF8 story is basically a collection of that kind of storytelling, very subtle.

Oh wanna bring up why the crowd cheers as Edea openly threatens them. I got answers.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 05:02:17 PM by Holykael1 » Logged

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« Reply #247 on: May 01, 2014, 05:02:07 PM »

Re assassination attemt: More importantly why did they feel the need to drop massive gates, totally giving away the fact that shenanigans were afoot and giving Edea time to put up the shields.

You mean this? http://youtu.be/Zuc62lLk6kQ?t=13m46s
That was part of the show, it was a planned thing, don't forget that SeeD was being helped by Rinoa's father who knows everything about the parade and probably had a hand in it's design for strategic purposes.


Edea looks super shocked when that gate falls if you ask me. It also makes no sense for the gates too fall, what good is a trapped float?
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Holykael1
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« Reply #248 on: May 01, 2014, 05:13:13 PM »

Re assassination attemt: More importantly why did they feel the need to drop massive gates, totally giving away the fact that shenanigans were afoot and giving Edea time to put up the shields.

You mean this? http://youtu.be/Zuc62lLk6kQ?t=13m46s
That was part of the show, it was a planned thing, don't forget that SeeD was being helped by Rinoa's father who knows everything about the parade and probably had a hand in it's design for strategic purposes.


Edea looks super shocked when that gate falls if you ask me. It also makes no sense for the gates too fall, what good is a trapped float?


Well that was the backup plan. If Irvine failed to shoot her, they would trap her and try to kill her then, when I said show I meant the assassination plan not the show show xD. The shot she deflacted was after the initial failure and it was a last resort sort of thing, she was supposed to have been sniped earlier(without her knowing that she was being attacked ofc) but Irvine chickened out for reasons that were already talked about.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 05:15:55 PM by Holykael1 » Logged

Aeolus
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« Reply #249 on: May 01, 2014, 05:22:20 PM »

Just because the game said why he does it, doesn't make what he does any less stupid. If shit's hitting the fan, then the first thing he should've been worried about was getting the fuck out of Garden. Especially if Galbadia has intercontinental ballistic missiles at their disposal and are in the midst of political upheaval/a coup (the ramifications of this are a whole 'nother social/political wall'o'text rigmarole I don't want to get into, especially since the game never did). Trying to make nice to an up and coming Sorceress by splitting the school in half was the worst possible thing he could've done at that point (good thing the school was also built upon mysterious ancient Centra ruins that not even Cid or NORG knew the purpose or functions of).

Also the gates came down first. That was the way the plan was intended to operate from the start (sure Quitis almost fucked that up by feeling bad about hurting Rinoa's feelings when she called her out on her bullshit, but fortunately she managed to find that secret tunnel leading directly to their designated assassination station, and all without having to be seen to boot).
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Holykael1
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« Reply #250 on: May 01, 2014, 05:32:01 PM »

Just because the game said why he does it, doesn't make what he does any less stupid. If shit's hitting the fan, then the first thing he should've been worried about was getting the fuck out of Garden. Especially if Galbadia has intercontinental ballistic missiles at their disposal and are in the midst of political upheaval/a coup (the ramifications of this are a whole 'nother social/political wall'o'text rigmarole I don't want to get into, especially since the game never did). Trying to make nice to an up and coming Sorceress by splitting the school in half was the worst possible thing he could've done at that point (good thing the school was also built upon mysterious ancient Centra ruins that not even Cid or NORG knew the purpose or functions of).

Also the gates came down first. That was the way the plan was intended to operate from the start (sure Quitis almost fucked that up by feeling bad about hurting Rinoa's feelings when she called her out on her bullshit, but fortunately she managed to find that secret tunnel leading directly to their designated assassination station, and all without having to be seen to boot).

You are forgetting the fact that he left his village originally to make riches and his garden is basically his fortune and position of power, he wanted to have everything and it ended up costing both his life and his fortune/power. It's a typical tale of a greedy bastard. Don't see anything offensive or flawed about that, might be a little cliché but the fact that it's cliché doesn't impact the quality of the narrative, if anything it's less original than it could have been.
"NORG is a wealthy Shumi, but unlike his humble, good-natured race, NORG is proud, selfish, and cowardly."
"NORG left Shumi Village to pursue a life of riches. It is unclear whether NORG was banished from the village, or if he left on his own accord. NORG came to possess a large fortune, and it was his meeting with Cid Kramer that led to the Garden's establishment; at the time, Cid was seeking financial assistance, and NORG was interested and ended up pouring in his fortune to fund the project. To cover the Garden's expenses, NORG came up with the idea of hiring the SeeD out as mercenaries."

So yeah, anything else :P?

Hmm yeah I rewatched the scene, I guess you are right, the gates did come down first(I do apologize for the misinformation in this regard, it's been a while since I last played the game too). (1-1 I guess XD)
Their plan was clearly flawed, they are still young and inexperienced mercenaries(they had little field experience after graduating but they were also Balamb's most elite squad) and they were way too rash in their approach, they underestimated how powerful the sorceress actually is, not only were they not expecting her to deflect the shot but they also weren't expecting to get owned instantaneously by ice lances when approaching her in close combat. It's appropriate and fitting of Squall's overconfidence and growth both as a person and as a leader. Any way you look at it, it's possible to explain contextually why things happened the way they did. It's not like failed assassination plots/strategic war failures don't exist IRL too(be it poor planning or rashness and overconfidence or even both, it's not implausible for such a thing to happen)..
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 06:07:05 PM by Holykael1 » Logged

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« Reply #251 on: May 01, 2014, 07:15:00 PM »

You do realize that it was Riona's dad who gave them that hot mess of a gameplan which was hatched in conjunction with Martine? Squall and co. simply carried out their roles as hired guns to the best of their ability (and despite their own fuckups the plan went off as 'intended', for a given definition of 'intended').
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« Reply #252 on: May 01, 2014, 07:20:08 PM »

I keep thinking about other things here...


Ah well, at least FF8 made it flashy and pretty.  And included wonderful dancing.  And icicles.
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« Reply #253 on: May 01, 2014, 07:21:55 PM »

Well yeah. I guess Rinoa's father was just not aware of how powerful the Sorceress actually was, were it any other kind of human threat, the plan was actually not that bad, (It's why I used they, as in everyone involved in the plan), it's typical for the military types on fantasy works to always underestimate the supernatural and magical beings of their world, conjure that with a young rash team of mercenaries and BOOM.
Don't forget that after Irvine's failure, Squall still decided to charge ahead  against Seifer and Edea on his own(though he didn't have any other choice either I suppose, I don't remember if he was supposed to go on his own, correct me if Im wrong, either way the above explanation still works.), that's where the overconfidence and rashness plays in. It's fitting of the Leonheart name.
Lion, pride, whatever.
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« Reply #254 on: May 01, 2014, 07:43:49 PM »

I think it was part of the plan for Squall to charge at them. I remember something about them being insurance should Irvine fail his shot.

Also I don't think Martine could have misunderstood how powerful a Sorceress really is. Galbadia knew first hand how powerful she was, because they had already fought a war with Adel. The Sorceress War.
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