Shin Megami Tensei IV

[Ashton]

A funny aside: read the descriptions for the relics when you sell them. They're hysterical. A few of note:

Tights: Could it be seaweed?
CD: A portable mirror
Canned Food: Some sort of kaleidoscope (?!)
Sweater: Fancy underwear

[Cyril]

Some of my favorites:

Morphine: A Magic Medicine
Eyelashes: Some sort of Insect?

[Fadedsun]

SO MUCH NEGATIVTY AHDLGJHSADJGK

Right? I feel like people are trying to tear this game apart for some reason. Nocturne  did a ton of things wrong too, but I never hear anyone ripping that game a new one.

Rpgamer being especially tough: http://www.rpgamer.com/games/megten/smt4/reviews/smt4strev1.html

On the message boards the reviewer said this: "I'd say there are many differences. Nocturne's bosses were much more strategic in nature, and it was common to need to rethink and reconfigure your party to take out a tough boss. In SMT4 I never needed to do this. Bosses were more like the strong, generic HP tanks in Persona 4."

Based on my first impression of the first real boss, I would have to disagree. I went back and re-tooled my party, and had a specific strategy in mind and what skills I wanted on my demons for it. In playing Nocturne on hard mode, I feel like there were certain strategies you had to use no matter what, or else you would die.

[Ashton]

Well, I dunno about RPGamer, but the ones here seem to be more about how the game got so much right but ended up getting some of the basics wrong (or even some of the problems that weren't present before) that's puzzling.

I disagree with that RPGamer review myself (try fighting some of the optional superbosses and tell me they're just HP sponges...), but the problems with the game can't be denied.

This goes double because it's been ten years since Nocturne and the game seems overall better, but less polished, if that makes any sense. Like instead of a well-shined ruby or sapphire, we got a diamond in the rough. Still as good, or better than its predecessor, but there are puzzling problems.

[PaleRobbie]

I'm certainly on the positive side and would have put out a review fairly close to Derek's score for our site.  The battle system, atmosphere, wonderful demon fusing, and exploration elements are all pretty damn spectacular and easily better than Nocturne, IMO.  I actually feel the same way about SMT4 as I did while reviewing Xenoblade.  There are so many great moments and truly innovative design decisions made towards improving the JRPG.  At the same time, though, there are some boneheaded things that can't be ignored.  

I'm coming into the home stretch and the last dungeon area I cleared was especially frustrating with the camera and way enemies spawned around me.  I'm sitting at around 80 agility and still losing the first turn on some fights.  I had to save scum like crazy during one section because the game would randomly give the enemies the first strike no matter what I did and one of them would always paralyze my entire party.  I checked my stats and I've saved close to 400 times!  

[Cyril]

I'm going to have to disagree.  I feel like this game is getting a lot of points just because it's SMT, when the flaws might be attacked if it was any other series.

- I found Nocturne's atmosphere almost universally better, save in "those two" parts of IV. SJ and DDS's are better too, and I don't even like DDS.
- The battle system and experience given are unbalanced. I don't know about you, but during a certain part I ended up 20 levels underleveled, despite steamrolling everything in the previous dungeon.  In the next area, the average enemy level went down by 5-10 and it was almost too easy again, but the extra EXP from before ended up making me overleveled. Then, at the end of the area, they throw the hardest boss in the game at me. It was just really strange. And this isn't a case of where I might have gone exploring or to an area I shouldn't have been at, this was a series of unavoidable story events.
- Fiend spawn requirements. Enough said.
- I know it's been said before, but I have to echo it. This game is not clear when it comes to directions. Which is fine in and of itself, I enjoy some exploration, but the way the game presented it was as if they expected you to know where to go.  There were at least 3-4 times I thought to myself "it's like this game expects me to know Tokyo's layout."

And finally, now that I'm 90+, I'm encountering an entirely new problem:
The money-making system is abysmal. Utterly, horrible.  If I want to Fuse Demons I have to run around pointlessly for 30 minutes just so I can wait for Relic respawn times because Fundraiser+ isn't giving me anywhere near the amount I need for the Compendium prices, and that's with the 50% discount App. Not to mention the 400,000 Macca armor piece armors that I haven't even started on.  However, it works fine during the main game and, were I reviewing it, I wouldn't knock points for this in particular.

I actually appreciate that a lot of the story is told by NPCs.  For example:

Code:

If you go back to Infernal Tokyo, there's a Demonoid and a boy in Kasumigaeski.  The boy is apparently the spawn of a
Neurisher and the Demonoid, yet the Demonoid is willing to protect and raise it.  They've essentially created a new race of
humans that can survive into the future.  But you'd never catch this unless you go very far out of your way to an optional area
that it's not even clear you can return to and talk to a specific NPC (it's hinted at in another NPC there, though).

Infernal Tokyo has a host of these type things. It really sheds new, more positive, light on the future of Chaos path
that the main game didn't do a good job of.

That said, while I'm negative here, I'd still agree that RPGamer might be a bit harsh. I'd personally put it at 4.25/5 or so.

Code:

There was nothing that made me more giddy than fighting the Four Riders of the Apocalypse at once.  I was actually giggling when the battle started.

[Fadedsun]

Nocturne was pretty bad about telling you where to go, too. If I wasn't using a FAQ to follow along through hard mode, I wouldn't actually know where to go next half the time.

Just as you're saying it's getting bonus points for supposedly being SMT, I think people are attacking it because they feel it's getting too much praise and want to knock a down a peg or two. Of course, loyalty will always factor into how much you like a game. I dig most, if not all, SMT games instantly based solely on atmosphere and aesthetics; no two ways about it. If this was another game with inferior art and music, I probably wouldn't like it as much, even if the gameplay was the same.

It's a solid game and I don't think there's any other way of looking at it. Every SMT game has had flaws, and this game is no different, but I feel like people are pointing these ones out much more than usual?

[AuraChannelerChris]

Everyone always complains every time a new SMT game and spin-off comes out during their first runs.

Give it half a month and suddenly everyone will love SMT IV just like they did with Persona 4.

[Cyril]

Uh, no, not really.

I don't really see myself complaining about it.  In fact, if you read my post, I actually have positive feelings overall on the game.  This discussion stemmed based on the comparing of review scores.  Unless "pointing out problems" is complaining now.

Now if you want to hear one of my complaints, rather than just commenting on issues: I find most of the music to be boring. The smdds4 from the OST (which is amazing) and the Roppongi map songs are the only ones I really like.
Edit: Overture on the OST is nice too, I suppose.

[Kevadu]

Everyone always complains every time a new SMT game and spin-off comes out during their first runs.

Give it half a month and suddenly everyone will love SMT IV just like they did with Persona 4.

I don't remember anyone complaining about  Persona 4 when it came out...

[Eusis]

Everyone always complains every time a new SMT game and spin-off comes out during their first runs.

Give it half a month and suddenly everyone will love SMT IV just like they did with Persona 4.

I'd have to dig up older posts or something to see whether that was ever the case for P4, but most of us are airing grievances or just kind of nitpicking and the better stuff will stick out more in the long run. That's what I figure it is anyway, especially as nothing so far has REALLY been debilitating (well, without save anywhere and the ability to buy yourself out of death the randomness of deaths COULD have been, but fortunately it's not that serious as a result.)

[Jotacon]

The nitpicking is the reason I haven't aired my grievances, I don't want to ruin the conversation around the game. Like others have said though, every SMT has problems (hell every game has some problem) and because the games are well loved I think it becomes easier to point at the flaws of the SMTIV. The other reason I'm not complaining too much is that most people have the same complaints as I do (fiend encounter rate, on-screen encounters) or they are very personal and while I think they would be worth discussing I'd rather not have a fight about it (most of the new demon designs, demon skill system and how they responded by removing the defence stat).

Cyril, I don't know how you can not like the music I think it is so good.

[PaleRobbie]

Y'all know I have a tendency to dwell on the negatives with a game, but I can't stop playing SMT4.  Just picked up Megidola for my MC and I am just devastating everything that stands in my way.  Kinda feel like Dr. Manhattan. 

[Lucca]

I don't take too much stock into RPGamer reviews anymore. More often than not they nitpick about every damn thing under the sun. When a game gets 4.0 or better, that's rare.

My biggest beef is with the camera in this game, but despite it's flaws I'm still having a lot of fun with it, moreso than Strange Journey.

[Ashton]

Everyone always complains every time a new SMT game and spin-off comes out during their first runs.

Give it half a month and suddenly everyone will love SMT IV just like they did with Persona 4.

Ridiculous.

Just because this game is good doesn't mean it doesn't have problems. These aren't just hit picks either, they are very real UI and pacing problems that affect playability. The fact that complaints can be dismissed so easily just because it's SMT is absurd.