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Author Topic: Project Phoenix (another Kickstarter!)  (Read 7432 times)
Dincrest
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« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2013, 05:26:13 PM »

I'm still trying to get a sense of the combat.  Sounds kinda like it's in the Bahamut Lagoon wheelhouse. 
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« Reply #61 on: August 20, 2013, 03:09:33 PM »

Bahamut Lagoon is turn-based isn't it?  Phoenix's combat is entirely real-time and the player has no direct control over any of the units; sounds like you just set the stance for the sqauds and watch them fight.    Doesn't really even sound like a JRPG at all, more of a pure RTS game where you can possibly level up the characters.  Ugh, I'm definitely not backing this.  
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 03:12:32 PM by daved » Logged
Kevadu
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« Reply #62 on: August 20, 2013, 03:20:30 PM »

Phoenix's combat is entirely real-time and the player has no direct control over any of the units; sounds like you just set the stance for the sqauds and watch them fight.

Um...where did you acquire this information?  Because it sure as hell isn't on the Kickstarter page or any of the updates.  In fact, your "no direct control" thing directly contradicts information they do have on the page.  Also, you do know that the standard definition of "squad-based" is that you control a squad, right?  What's this about setting stances (?) for squads (plural)?

Seriously, did you just completely make this shit up or what?
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Dincrest
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« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2013, 04:19:10 PM »

Sounds like he's describing a pure RTS.  And, yeah, "RTS" has been bandied around a lot in Project Phoenix's description.  A lot of folks are backlashing because of that, because it's not the traditional turn-based combat we love in JRPGs, etc.  I'm thinking the battle system might be a hybrid, like in Growlanser as someone suggested. 

I prefer turn-based over action RPGs myself (I'm not young, I don't have the best twitch/reaction time) but I'd still give it a try.  How can I say I don't like something if I haven't tried it yet? 

I mention Bahamut Lagoon because it was a game where you moved avatars around an SRPG battlefield, but each avatar represented a squad and when units collided, it went into a FF style turn-based thing.  And Project Phoenix sounds like that; avatars placed around the field represent squads. 

Again, though, everything regarding Project Phoenix's play mechanics is all speculation.  I wonder if they're being intentionally vague about the specific mechanics just to get discussion and even knee-jerk reactions going.  Because the more people cry foul about something, the more publicity it gets. 
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« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2013, 07:32:56 PM »

The only official word on the mechanics I've seen is from the Kickstarter page (which I've quoted before):

Quote
Combat uses a point and click system to control your party of heroes. Each hero has abilities they can use in battle, and the use of these abilities depletes either their mana (magic reserves) or their stamina. Tactical play and the combination of different heroes will be the main factors in your success, as well as taking advantage of the following conditions:
  • Terrain....
  • Fog of War....
  • Threat Management....

Which all sounds like pretty standard stuff in any strategy game, real-time, turn-based, or otherwise.

Still, the term "squad-based" is being thrown around a lot, they seem to emphasize the lack of micromanagement, and they've explicitly said they don't mean stuff like resource management when they say "RTS".  This sounds like a much more tactical strategy game that happens to be in real time.  I'm not really a fan of traditional RTS games myself, but that's precisely because of all the frantic micromanagement.  Having a small number of hero units in a more tactical setting sounds fine to me.

Also, the one piece of concept art they have for the battle system certainly doesn't jive with avatars representing a squad:


Seriously, I didn't even think "squad-based" was ambiguous until I started having this conversation with you guys.  Normally it means small-scale, tactical combat.

Now I suspect daved drew his conclusions from this interview and I should apologize for being a bit harsh.  The relevant portion being:

Quote
As for the gameplay mechanics, if you recall the hero system of Warcraft III, and the campaigns that centered around those characters, you may find something very similar to that in Project Phoenix’s RTS-inspired gameplay. “Now, I hate micromanagement. It’s not real. You should be leading these heroes, you shouldn’t have to tell them what to do. You shouldn’t have to tell them to defend, or to tell them to do this, or to do special moves, or tell them when to scratch their butts. They know what to do in certain situations. There’s three kinds of modes they can be in for now. We have aggressive, we have defensive, and we have stealth. Based on what you tell them to do, these people will move based on that strategy.”

“What’s even cooler–you’re working with heroes, not just any old character. These heroes are heroes. They’re just like Legolas. They’ll kill in one shot and nail people’s faces…But there are many many crappy foot soldiers. And they will overwhelm you and you will lose health, and you will die, and that’s where the fun begins. It’s more about tactical gameplay. Where you stand, where you set up your archers, how you set up your group, how you want your groups to behave, these are the decisions your players will be making, not ‘do your special move now.’ Micromanagement just doesn’t feel real.”

Still, I draw a different conclusion from that.  It sounds to me like they're talking about setting AI behavior so you don't have to micromanage everything your guys do and they can respond intelligently if they're, say, attacked when you're not paying attention.  That doesn't mean you can't order them around directly.  That would contradict the "point and click system to control your party of heroes".  And they clearly do emphasize positioning at the very least.
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« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2013, 11:04:21 PM »

@Kevadu @Dincrest

Have you read their Kickstarter update #3?  (August 17th)

Quote
...During combat, you will control your characters by their appointed squads, and not as individuals. There will be around 10 playable characters on the field at any given time, and it will be up to you to maximize the party’s effectiveness to defeat the enemies. Any way that you choose to accomplish this is your decision.

Example: You create 3 squads for 9 characters. In the first squad you place 3 tanks, the second, 3 ranged, and the third, 3 healers. Then you set up the party formation so that the tank squad faces the enemy, the healer squad stays center to provide support to the other squads, and the ranged squad protects the flanks and rear.

You can mix and match the squads and characters as you wish. Include a tank, ranged, and healer in each squad, and then change their stance to match their role.

Indeed, I may have been hasty to interpret this as "no direct control" of the units... However, to me it sounds like your main combat options are selecting members of each squad and then setting the stance of each squad... If you cannot control the characters as individuals, then what other options does that leave for the player?  I suppose you could order an entire squad to attack a specific enemy, but would that even be a smart tactical move in most cases?  I assume it would be a sensible tactic when fighting a boss enemy; But still, from the sound of it, you could simply set the squad's stance to "aggressive" and let the AI do the attacking for you.   We've all played JRPGs with an "auto-battle" option where you AI will handle the fight, arguably to make the game less tedious... But in this case it sounds like every battle is essentially on auto mode (albeit with us making a few selections before the fight). 

I was initially hoping this might be a turn-based / real-time hybrid like Growlanser... Generally I prefer turn-based RPGs (or real-time with pause), but I love Growlanser's combat system.  However, in the backer comments, the developer has stressed this is 100% real-time combat.  There could be something that makes the proposed battle system more complex than "choose what characters are in a squad, choose the squad's position /stance" that I'm missing.... (I'm not entirely seeing how things like fog of war would even matter if the AI is controlling all the units).  Now I'm definitely not saying that button mashing would be an improvement; but not having direct control over even one unit makes me wonder what I'd be doing during battle besides twiddling my thumbs and watching as the AI handles the fight. 

« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 11:44:05 PM by daved » Logged
Dincrest
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« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2013, 11:53:51 PM »

Regardless, I would like to see a video of a battle in action, so I can get a real sense of what combat is like, because all the verbiage trying to disambiguate the combat system is making me even more confuzzled. 

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« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2013, 12:02:21 AM »

Update #4 : Scales and Goals

Update #5 : OVER 9000?! Paypal option, interview and expensive wines!

Update #6 : First musical update

Update #7 : Minor updates

Source: Kickstarter
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« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2013, 12:13:58 AM »

Regardless, I would like to see a video of a battle in action, so I can get a real sense of what combat is like, because all the verbiage trying to disambiguate the combat system is making me even more confuzzled. 

Well, they said they're going to try and release a video by Monday that explains things.  Hopefully it actually does.  Because I agree that I'm pretty darn confused at this point.
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« Reply #69 on: August 23, 2013, 03:33:18 AM »

I'm really curious to see this combat system. I would have rather had a really good team based action RPG or a turn based system but I'm all for something new and innovative.
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« Reply #70 on: August 23, 2013, 08:00:00 PM »

Update #8 : Very first look into the characters of Project Phoenix -- Source: Kickstarter
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Taelus
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« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2013, 12:39:19 PM »

We're looking at interviewing Hiroaki Yura about Project Phoenix. If we do, does anyone have any questions they'd like us to ask? Can't promise they'll make it in, but we'll definitely try.
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« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2013, 02:35:22 PM »

Do you know when the interview is going to be?  I think my questions might change depending on the info they're planning to reveal about the battle system on Monday...
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« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2013, 08:25:00 PM »

Update #9 : Slowly Encroaching Upon the Second Stretch... -- Source: Kickstarter
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« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2013, 03:14:32 AM »

Should be after Monday, so feel free to wait until then :)
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