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Author Topic: Gust making a spiritual successor to Ar Tonelico: Ar no Surge  (Read 5334 times)
ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2014, 04:46:18 PM »

While it undoubtedly is an issue in the gaming industry I'd actually chalk up moments like SMT and past-GUST examples to 'Japan' and 'Shonen' more than the GI.

Japan already has a poor public track record when it comes to how it treats male-female equality (well, heck, other human beings as a whole) as a society. Most stories in the Shonen genre go out of their way to make sure the female characters are either A) minor, B) never given the same level of power as the males, and/or C) quickly robbed of that power or used as the punching bag to prove how 'epic' the next villain on the food chain is.

RPGs (especially SMT, GUST, NISA, ect) are heavily dipped in the Shonen genre pool, if not outright swimming in it.

Good excuse? Not at all. But if you're looking to treat the illness that's more where I'd diagnose the infection for 'East' games.

Western developers on the other hand...
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 04:51:09 PM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
raisel
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« Reply #76 on: January 29, 2014, 05:17:04 PM »

And this all goes to the fact that Gust (or better said, Tsuchiya) designed Ra Ciela's setting in a way different of that seen in Ar Ciel: in Ar Ciel, only Terus, Reyvateils and Moon Chanters could use magic (with the Reyvateils having access to the greatest power). However, in Ra Ciela, anyone can use magic as long as they have a pact with a Genom or have access to a functional Ciel notron, which is basically a device that emulates a Genom. And this is without mentioning the people that were modified to become "Doll-type Genoms", which can use magic without any outside support.

Similarly, Diving is possible in men and women alike, as Genometrics doesn't work in the same way as the Cosmospheres did in Ar tonelico setting-wise. However, I have to say that there won't be a song sung by a man in this game due to the artist line-up being already revealed and not including any male singers in it.
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Ma ki ga exec aulla ganna dand oz ee ciel. mAtyAy aje lyuma/.
N waw W an-pu kiu-wa-fen-ne miriu-du ahih=yeta-a;
QuelI-> { EXwI[cez]->{ic-p ciel}->{ic-b ciol};}->ExeC->{DW};
Klyde Chroma
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« Reply #77 on: January 29, 2014, 06:34:22 PM »


I've always found the fact that the target demographic being males (given the content) with a lot of games is strange when you consider the feminine quality in tone and visual to most JRPGs. Regardless, niche JRPG's are something I certainly adore so I'm not complaining. Just stating that I observe it as a poor business model is all.

To clarify, I feel like they target a specific gender to sell games to but then go and shoot themselves in the foot by simultaneously targeting a minority proportion or small percentage of that gender.

Quite simply, most niche JRPG's have all the makings of a "girly" game if you strip away the fan service and boob-age and whatnot. So why not be rid of the fan service crap and make it WAY more comfortable for female audiences to enjoy? In many cases you would have the same product (game or anime) without panty shots and all the junk that, IMO, really compromises the integrity of a title. Add in some female MC's here and there and I could totally see a more widely accepted product in the end.

But I'm just philosophizing here based on my own narrow and skewed perspective.... maybe fan service tailored to a male audience REALLY IS a major selling point and I am simply unaware. Additionally I'm floating way off topic here because I'm not really speaking about the AR franchise and just the gaming/gender bias issue. So let me get grounded again and just say that....
So considering quite a few Gust titles get localized, what do you guys feel are chances are of seeing Ar Nosurge in the west?

99.99%

.... those are GOOD odds and it makes me happy :)



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Aeolus
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« Reply #78 on: January 29, 2014, 08:37:47 PM »

Western developers on the other hand...

Will happily stuff a token female clad in nothing but thigh high boots, a chainmail bikini, and five pounds of makeup strutting around like she's perpetually on a model runway and will never have more than five facial expressions (i.e. Sexual, The Other Sexual, Bitch Face, Bitch-slapped Face, and "I NEED MY MAN!" Face....; wait, I think I'm getting video games conflated with comic books again; well the other points still stand).

Basically, Japan isn't the only one to have issues with portraying females as anything but sexual objects. Its just more noticeable to us due to cultural differences and the fact that we've spent more than a few years sperging out about it.
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Cyril
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« Reply #79 on: February 01, 2014, 06:29:34 PM »

Not sure if these have been posted yet, but because my hype level is rising, I feel the need to share the snippets of music that have been released:

Green Lands remix.  Ar tonelico 1's map theme in Ar No Surge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY97gFpHH1o

Two samples of the new hymnos.

From the new singer, ORIGA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bOcOHu7LqM

Haruka Shimotsuki's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqr6erKwvxA
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ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #80 on: February 01, 2014, 06:44:25 PM »

Western developers on the other hand...

Will happily stuff a token female clad in nothing but thigh high boots, a chainmail bikini, and five pounds of makeup strutting around like she's perpetually on a model runway and will never have more than five facial expressions (i.e. Sexual, The Other Sexual, Bitch Face, Bitch-slapped Face, and "I NEED MY MAN!" Face....; wait, I think I'm getting video games conflated with comic books again; well the other points still stand).

Basically, Japan isn't the only one to have issues with portraying females as anything but sexual objects. Its just more noticeable to us due to cultural differences and the fact that we've spent more than a few years sperging out about it.

What's funny is I phrased it that way to imply Western developers are far worse about it. If nothing else simply for not having 'cultural reasons' as a fall-back excuse. XP
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raisel
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« Reply #81 on: February 01, 2014, 09:04:32 PM »

Not sure if these have been posted yet, but because my hype level is rising, I feel the need to share the snippets of music that have been released:

Green Lands remix.  Ar tonelico 1's map theme in Ar No Surge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY97gFpHH1o

Two samples of the new hymnos.

From the new singer, ORIGA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bOcOHu7LqM

Haruka Shimotsuki's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqr6erKwvxA

Yep, the first one was revealed before it became known that Sol Ciel would be a place the player would be able to visit in Ar nosurge, and once that was revealed, pretty much everyone has begun theorizing that it will be the world map theme for that area while Ra Ciela's own world map will have its own separate theme (and that's something I agree with).

However, in this case the songs aren't Hymmnos anymore: that word refers exclusively to songs that are processed by an Ar Ciel-based Song Server to execute a specific effect, as well as using the Hymmnos language. In Ciel and Ar nosurge, they are merely called Song Magic. Additionally, as they depend on different mechanisms (either a pact with a Genom or having a Ciel notron) and use different languages (Emotional Song Pact in the case of the former and REON-4213 in the case of the latter) from the Song Magic of Ar Ciel, they can't be really called Hymmnos here.
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Ma ki ga exec aulla ganna dand oz ee ciel. mAtyAy aje lyuma/.
N waw W an-pu kiu-wa-fen-ne miriu-du ahih=yeta-a;
QuelI-> { EXwI[cez]->{ic-p ciel}->{ic-b ciol};}->ExeC->{DW};
Cyril
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« Reply #82 on: February 02, 2014, 12:20:15 AM »

I'm going to be honest here:

It's hymnos and the name probably is not going to change in my mind for another 5 years, or two games.  I still call NISA's online store Rosenqueen and they changed that at least 5 years ago.  Ar tonelico is one of my favorite series and my old influences are not going to leave so quickly.

Agreed that the Green Lands remix probably isn't the world map theme.  Despite being "louder" it doesn't sound as world map-y.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 12:22:32 AM by Cyril » Logged
Cyril
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« Reply #83 on: February 02, 2014, 12:21:36 AM »

Edit: oops. Double Post. Can someone delete?
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Dice
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« Reply #84 on: February 02, 2014, 12:30:36 AM »

I'm going to be honest here:

It's hymnos and the name probably is not going to change in my mind for another 5 years, or two games.  I still call NISA's online store Rosenqueen and they changed that at least 5 years ago.  Ar tonelico is one of my favorite series and my old influences are not going to leave so quickly.

Agreed that the Green Lands remix probably isn't the world map theme.  Despite being "louder" it doesn't sound as world map-y.

I go along with my "fuck-up" and keep calling (and renaming) "Red 13" (from FF7) to "Red 8" after a misreading of the Roman numerals.  Even after noticing, I stuck with it because it flows off the tongue better and is a full syllable shorter to say.
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raisel
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« Reply #85 on: February 02, 2014, 01:40:32 AM »

The thing is that it's established terminology at this point, and it has been ever since Ar tonelico 2 was released. Even in Ar tonelico itself there are several kinds of Song Magic that can't be formally considered as Hymmnos because they aren't being processed by a Tower or Song Server to cause paranormal effects to happen: the songs sung by the Wills of the Planet, the song Spica sang through the Carillon Organito device, and the songs sung by the Moon Chanters and the Teru all fall in this category.
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Ma ki ga exec aulla ganna dand oz ee ciel. mAtyAy aje lyuma/.
N waw W an-pu kiu-wa-fen-ne miriu-du ahih=yeta-a;
QuelI-> { EXwI[cez]->{ic-p ciel}->{ic-b ciol};}->ExeC->{DW};
Cyril
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« Reply #86 on: February 02, 2014, 01:41:34 AM »

Oooh, I thought it was Red 8, too, until Cosmo Canyon or so!  I think my case is more that I simply wasn't paying much attention to him and was like "it's the three 'I's guy."

I did eventually mentally correct myself, but I kinda like the 8 better, being one syllable instead of two.

The thing is that it's established terminology at this point, and it has been ever since Ar tonelico 2 was released. Even in Ar tonelico itself there are several kinds of Song Magic that can't be formally considered as Hymmnos because they aren't being processed by a Tower or Song Server to cause paranormal effects to happen: the songs sung by the Wills of the Planet, the song Spica sang through the Carillon Organito device, and the songs sung by the Moon Chanters and the Teru all fall in this category.

So in other words you're just being anal.

Okay.
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raisel
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« Reply #87 on: February 02, 2014, 01:47:41 AM »

If being anal is trying to abide by what the creators of the game themselves wrote in the liner notes of the Hymmnos Concerts, then, yes, I am.

Plus, I don't see a reason to keep calling "Hymmnos" a completely new type of Song Magic developed in a civilization entirely different from that of the Ar tonelico games and that works under different principles when even the names of the albums have been changed to Genometric Concerts and when the Hymmnos language is not even being used in these songs. I mean, the Surge Concert languages don't have any resemblance to Hymmnos when it comes to writing, grammar, script or pronunciation.
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Ma ki ga exec aulla ganna dand oz ee ciel. mAtyAy aje lyuma/.
N waw W an-pu kiu-wa-fen-ne miriu-du ahih=yeta-a;
QuelI-> { EXwI[cez]->{ic-p ciel}->{ic-b ciol};}->ExeC->{DW};
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« Reply #88 on: February 02, 2014, 01:53:34 AM »

If being anal is trying to abide by what the creators of the game themselves wrote in the liner notes of the Hymmnos Concerts, then, yes, I am.

Plus, I don't see a reason to keep calling "Hymmnos" a completely new type of Song Magic developed in a civilization entirely different from that of the Ar tonelico games and that works under different principles when even the names of the albums have been changed to Genometric Concerts and when the Hymmnos language is not even being used in these songs. I mean, the Surge Concert languages don't have any resemblance to Hymmnos when it comes to writing, grammar, script or pronunciation.

I admire your enthusiasm for what is a really great and unique game series.

However I think you kinda have to understand "this" forum as opposed to, say, a dedicated Ar-Tonelico forum.

Here:
"Man Star Trek the Next Generation is awesome, and I love the episode 'Tapestry' because it's well written and Q is an amazing character!  Don't you think?"

Star Trek Forum:
"The Klingon language used in Season 1 is much different than the way it's used by Wharf is a later episode; some debate it's because of the new context, others think because they changed linguists.  That's still no excuse for why this shouldn't be part of Wharf's main canon, it's like he's forgotten about in later episodes and always wrong compared to how Jean Luc Picard treats everyone else!  I noticed tis happened after Season 4".

We're all game to chat, just don't be surprised if some of us can't hit the same level of know-how on certain things.
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« Reply #89 on: February 02, 2014, 02:00:04 AM »

If being anal is trying to abide by what the creators of the game themselves wrote in the liner notes of the Hymmnos Concerts, then, yes, I am.

It's exactly as Dice says.  There's nothing wrong with having such a passion about Ar tonelico (I own just about every book that exists on it, for example), but being anal enough to correct every little thing on a casual forum like this makes you come off rather pretentious.  Perhaps try to tone it down a bit.
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