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Author Topic: Enjoyment Editorial was excellent..  (Read 1728 times)
Darilon
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« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2014, 05:41:57 PM »

You are absolutely correct but that was not what I was trying to get across. I was talking about the hypocrisy of some of these people who completely bash the character by behaving like the very thing they hate and also for saying dumb shit completely devoid of any analytical substance. It's okay to dislike the character but atleast be consistent with your opinions and be well opinionated.

You don't really need any of that to dislike a character though. Admittedly, you do if you want a good discussion but it isn't necessary. Of course everyone has their own opinion but I find if both sides are opinionated( I sense I just dun some badder grammar) it is less of a discussion and more people simply repeating the same thing they said over again and again. It is great if people have an opinion that they want to voice. Not so great if both parties are unwilling to listen to each other. Admittedly, I actually like it when opinions differ. The discussions would be pretty boring otherwise.

It is nice when people say why they like/dislike a character though. I don't mind when people don't add that much however. Something like "I preferred when the story revolved around Shinra in FFVII" is fine by me. It might not explain much but at least it has room for expansion and discussion.  I have never been great at putting my thoughts into words without it sounding either wooden or being an incoherent rushed mess so I can get why some people may also have trouble with it.

----------

I am pretty easy to please when it comes to gaming. Even if I dislike certain aspects of a game, I tend to enjoy it as a whole. Star Ocean 3 is probably the best example I can use here.  Only things that really bug me are poor pacing and something that smashes my suspension of disbelief to pieces. I disliked how rushed the last few main quests of Fallout 3 felt a lot more than the actual ending.

Pretty much why I can moan on about how much I dislike a character in one thread and defend the overall game in another. It does have the downside of making me come off as a pretentious ass though.




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Annubis
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« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2014, 05:45:36 PM »

Star Ocean 4 is the best example of 'you can hate a character for many reasons'.

It's quite a feat to make a game where I hate every single character.

EDIT: since Darilon mentions a well discussed opinion, I'm gonna do that exactly:

Edge - His emo/angsty phase after the time travel is unbearable
Reimi - Her lack of self-love (or is it confidence?) and the fact that she is fine with terrible things being done to her is purely disgusting. I get that they were aiming at her feeling saintly, but it just comes out as her being some broken doll.
Faize - Nothing too deep here. I just don't like him. If I had to say why... I'd have to be non-politically correct and say 'he his so gay'. (no offense intended to real homosexuals; you guys are way better than Faize. Also this)
Lymle - Do I really need to say? I have trouble finding a single good thing about her.
Bacchus - They played the unemotional robot way too much and you end up with a doorknob as a character.
Meracle - Pretty much a comic relief character that wasn't funny at all.
Myuria - Tacked on sexy with a pure obsession with Crowe. She's pretty bitchy overall. Still, I like her the best out of the bunch.
Arumat - If there was a discussion about sexism relating to men, Arumat would be amongst the worst offenders.
Sarah - Terribad voice acting coupled with sheer retardedness.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 06:01:55 PM by Annubis » Logged
dyeager
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« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2014, 06:38:45 PM »

Star Ocean 4 is the best example of 'you can hate a character for many reasons'.

It's quite a feat to make a game where I hate every single character.

EDIT: since Darilon mentions a well discussed opinion, I'm gonna do that exactly:

Edge - His emo/angsty phase after the time travel is unbearable
Reimi - Her lack of self-love (or is it confidence?) and the fact that she is fine with terrible things being done to her is purely disgusting. I get that they were aiming at her feeling saintly, but it just comes out as her being some broken doll.
Faize - Nothing too deep here. I just don't like him. If I had to say why... I'd have to be non-politically correct and say 'he his so gay'. (no offense intended to real homosexuals; you guys are way better than Faize. Also this)
Lymle - Do I really need to say? I have trouble finding a single good thing about her.
Bacchus - They played the unemotional robot way too much and you end up with a doorknob as a character.
Meracle - Pretty much a comic relief character that wasn't funny at all.
Myuria - Tacked on sexy with a pure obsession with Crowe. She's pretty bitchy overall. Still, I like her the best out of the bunch.
Arumat - If there was a discussion about sexism relating to men, Arumat would be amongst the worst offenders.
Sarah - Terribad voice acting coupled with sheer retardedness.


I am excited that it only took the second page of posts for the conversation to turn completely negative. :-D
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Annubis
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« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2014, 06:39:19 PM »

See, I don't view that as negative =/

Although I guess it might be (?) Anyone here can tell me if I'm a negative person?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 06:43:56 PM by Annubis » Logged
Holykael1
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« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2014, 06:39:56 PM »

You are absolutely correct but that was not what I was trying to get across. I was talking about the hypocrisy of some of these people who completely bash the character by behaving like the very thing they hate and also for saying dumb shit completely devoid of any analytical substance. It's okay to dislike the character but atleast be consistent with your opinions and be well opinionated.

You don't really need any of that to dislike a character though. Admittedly, you do if you want a good discussion but it isn't necessary. Of course everyone has their own opinion but I find if both sides are opinionated( I sense I just dun some badder grammar) it is less of a discussion and more people simply repeating the same thing they said over again and again. It is great if people have an opinion that they want to voice. Not so great if both parties are unwilling to listen to each other. Admittedly, I actually like it when opinions differ. The discussions would be pretty boring otherwise.

It is nice when people say why they like/dislike a character though. I don't mind when people don't add that much however. Something like "I preferred when the story revolved around Shinra in FFVII" is fine by me. It might not explain much but at least it has room for expansion and discussion.  I have never been great at putting my thoughts into words without it sounding either wooden or being an incoherent rushed mess so I can get why some people may also have trouble with it.

----------

I am pretty easy to please when it comes to gaming. Even if I dislike certain aspects of a game, I tend to enjoy it as a whole. Star Ocean 3 is probably the best example I can use here.  Only things that really bug me are poor pacing and something that smashes my suspension of disbelief to pieces. I disliked how rushed the last few main quests of Fallout 3 felt a lot more than the actual ending.

Pretty much why I can moan on about how much I dislike a character in one thread and defend the overall game in another. It does have the downside of making me come off as a pretentious ass though.






Hmm, I get your point but I think I didnt specify enough, I was referring to people who were vile and abusive to others with differing opinions. Hence why I really highlighted the douchebag bit. I really like debating and discussing, I just long for classy people who can have a debate and not a clusterfuck agressive provocative argument.~

Edit: Not to mention that if you are going to shit all over a product atleast have the decency to be more eloquent than "IT SUCKS! ANYONE WHO LIKES THIS SUCKS TOO!". I just hate the gorilla attitude , I guess I just dont want people to be obnoxious about their dislikes, be more polite I suppose.

Edit: Annubis, you may find it hard to believe but I know people who are exactly like that character Reimi you described from SO4. You may not like the character but it's a very real personality.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 07:03:19 PM by Holykael1 » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2014, 07:21:22 PM »

Star Ocean 4 is the best example of 'you can hate a character for many reasons'.

It's quite a feat to make a game where I hate every single character.

EDIT: since Darilon mentions a well discussed opinion, I'm gonna do that exactly:

Edge - His emo/angsty phase after the time travel is unbearable
Reimi - Her lack of self-love (or is it confidence?) and the fact that she is fine with terrible things being done to her is purely disgusting. I get that they were aiming at her feeling saintly, but it just comes out as her being some broken doll.
Faize - Nothing too deep here. I just don't like him. If I had to say why... I'd have to be non-politically correct and say 'he his so gay'. (no offense intended to real homosexuals; you guys are way better than Faize. Also this)
Lymle - Do I really need to say? I have trouble finding a single good thing about her.
Bacchus - They played the unemotional robot way too much and you end up with a doorknob as a character.
Meracle - Pretty much a comic relief character that wasn't funny at all.
Myuria - Tacked on sexy with a pure obsession with Crowe. She's pretty bitchy overall. Still, I like her the best out of the bunch.
Arumat - If there was a discussion about sexism relating to men, Arumat would be amongst the worst offenders.
Sarah - Terribad voice acting coupled with sheer retardedness.


I am excited that it only took the second page of posts for the conversation to turn completely negative. :-D

I was about to make a comment about disliking the cast in Fire Emblem: Awakening, but then I said to myself "that would turn this conversation negative!" We must struggle on in our quest to enjoy!
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Holykael1
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« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2014, 07:29:23 PM »

One interesting discussion to have would be about the following question - Does the fact that you dont like a character make it a bad character?
I dont think so, characters are supposed to mimic people and there are sure as hell many people in the world that are unlikable. I just want a character to be well made and well constructed, I dont necessarily need to like it. In fact I find characters that lack flaws and act very inhuman quite boring.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 07:34:51 PM by Holykael1 » Logged

Annubis
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« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2014, 07:58:21 PM »

I was about to make a comment about disliking the cast in Fire Emblem: Awakening, but then I said to myself "that would turn this conversation negative!" We must struggle on in our quest to enjoy!

While I've been vocal about the things I don't like about Star Ocean 4 (I know it's not the first time I've rattled on it), I do think the game has some good points. The issue is that those good points are not 'the best'. That's why it's easier to speak of the two most dreaded element of the title since they are amongst the worst of the genre and make good examples of "don't do this".
Still, would I review the game, I'd probably give it a 72% as the graphics were descent and the music was good. The battle system being fast-paced John Woo kung fu blindside always did feel great.

With the above said, I feel that it is important to put emphasis on bad example (and good examples, but I'll skip over this point for now) to help further games .
The problem is how those are brought out. The Mass Effect 3 ending was an important message from the fan that they were sad to see their choices be reduced to nothing in the ending. The outcry by some was way too strong and the negativity campaign was excessive, but the message was important.
Had that message not been spoken, there probably would not have been what is considered the best ME3 DLC.

One interesting discussion to have would be about the following question - Does the fact that you dont like a character make it a bad character?

There's a difference between not liking a character and a bad character.
Everything I stated above is a personal displeasure (although I would call half of them bad characters, but the other half are fair).

I find characters that lack flaws and act very inhuman quite boring.

Don't watch/play Super Sonico.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 08:22:33 PM by Annubis » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2014, 09:41:02 PM »

I was only teasing btw. These are valid points.
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« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2014, 10:06:32 PM »

Star Ocean 4 is the best example of 'you can hate a character for many reasons'.

It's quite a feat to make a game where I hate every single character.

EDIT: since Darilon mentions a well discussed opinion, I'm gonna do that exactly:

Edge - His emo/angsty phase after the time travel is unbearable
Reimi - Her lack of self-love (or is it confidence?) and the fact that she is fine with terrible things being done to her is purely disgusting. I get that they were aiming at her feeling saintly, but it just comes out as her being some broken doll.
Faize - Nothing too deep here. I just don't like him. If I had to say why... I'd have to be non-politically correct and say 'he his so gay'. (no offense intended to real homosexuals; you guys are way better than Faize. Also this)
Lymle - Do I really need to say? I have trouble finding a single good thing about her.
Bacchus - They played the unemotional robot way too much and you end up with a doorknob as a character.
Meracle - Pretty much a comic relief character that wasn't funny at all.
Myuria - Tacked on sexy with a pure obsession with Crowe. She's pretty bitchy overall. Still, I like her the best out of the bunch.
Arumat - If there was a discussion about sexism relating to men, Arumat would be amongst the worst offenders.
Sarah - Terribad voice acting coupled with sheer retardedness.

Worth noting I think even the VA who did his English work thought Edge was a big ham (I actually fault the writing in SO4 more than the characters since they're pretty typical band of JRPG tropes).

I liked Reimi enough for being a killer in battle and "generally" safe from large sums of stupid.  But I do like your point.

Faize sucks.  I *loved* meeting him at first. but then:
Code:
What the fuck?  He wants to destroy the galaxy because some darkness attacked him...so what sets it off?  A chick he met and chatted up for FIVE MINUTES gets killed and HE STARTS GETTING EVIL EYES? MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN... Lymle get psychologically fucked up by demons from the pits of hell, Edge destroys Other-Earth (stupid sequence; but I'd be lying if visiting mid 20th c. America wasn't KINDA cool for a JRPG), Myuria loses her husband, Bacchus can't have sex with his wife (...or can he?), Amurant lost his whole squad, and Faize is crying and cursing the universe over some nomad woman he just met when just about the rest of the cast had better reasons to really lose their shit.  His planet being destroyed? Yes. His not-even-girlfriend? NO.
*breath* I'm done.

 I liked Lymle for her effect on Faize...even if it was weird on a physical level.  Her story is pretty heart breaking too and all that...  Unfortunately SO mages suck and I hate loli characters a lot. 

Bacchus I liked simply for being an adult amongst the rest of the hormone-crazy cast.  I thought he looked kinda goofy though.

Meracle wasn't funny, you're right.  She's another one in on virtue of being awesome in battle though.  I don't get how she fits in the plot, but hey SO got its cat girl.

Myuria was sympathetic, but her amount of suck in battle barely made her enter.  I might get in trouble for this: But I *loved* her CG portrait waaay more than her anime one (I think it's also because of the disconnect that anime versus CG create too, on a visual level, that simply matched better in-game)

Your description of Amurant made me confused, then really happy. x)
I liked him enough, but he's definitely walking testosterone and not a good version of it...just....trope-y.
I also think it's a sin we never got to play as Crowe.

Sarah.  Yeah, she's the worst and why they thought this character-type was a good idea is beyond me.  Still, her help in battle can't be denied.  I hate that her being a retard was basically a plot point.  Why not a "broken wing" scenario to make her sympathetic? 

Still, I loved playing the hell out of this game.  A great amount of references to the first title, and the battle system was everything I wanted.  It played well, and I was happy with that. :)

Now, while we're speaking of Star Ocean...

The problem is how those are brought out. The Mass Effect 3 ending was an important message from the fan that they were sad to see their choices be reduced to nothing in the ending. The outcry by some was way too strong and the negativity campaign was excessive, but the message was important.
Had that message not been spoken, there probably would not have been what is considered the best ME3 DLC.

I don't get this argument.
For ALLLL the Mass Effect decisions, would it be feasible for them to create THAT many endings to compensate for the actions your MC takes across 3 whole titles??
Star Ocean 2 tried... instead you get basically 10 good-decent endings and another 70 that are incredible dry and clearly unmotivated.

A bigger, better, more expansive ending (that wasn't 2 minutes and colour-coded) definitely.  But I can't imagine the dev's compensating for everything a player had done.
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Annubis
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« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2014, 11:03:56 PM »

I liked Reimi enough for being a killer in battle

If memory serves me right, you played the PS3 version, right?
Because her innate crit chance on PS3 was HALVED compared to the 360 version.
She was so strong, they nerfed her and she still ended up OP.
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« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2014, 06:57:44 AM »

Forget limiting examples to a few Final Fantasies... I think this tends to be a JRPG thing in general.. In fact, I think you would have a far shorter list of end game bosses that did not turn out to be or morph into some creature/demon things that was otherwise up til that point unknown.
At the top of that list would be Mass Effect 3, because having a final boss fight against something epic like that would have been too video gamey for a game like that. :p
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« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2014, 07:34:46 PM »

It's sort of gameplay/plot separation. Necron never showed up earlier in FFIX because it really WASN'T that relevant -- it was there because the game needed a suitable final boss and the actual antagonist wasn't really, uh... suitable for being a final boss at that point.

iirc FFXII had the opposite problem, where the main antagonist WAS the final boss but it quit making sense for him to be the boss at that point?
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« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2014, 08:43:08 PM »

I stand by that Larsa should have been the REAL bad guy.
That would have been a genius plot twist.
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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2014, 01:02:49 AM »

I stand by that Larsa should have been the REAL bad guy.
That would have been a genius plot twist.

He looks snobby enough for me to see that work.

....the little shit.  What is this pose exactly??

I hate when evil-looking people are indeed evil.  I mean, look at this fucking guy!!!.  If he ain't evil, then Mario is actually Satan.
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