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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Author Topic: Conception II  (Read 7293 times)
Embryon
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« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2014, 01:23:29 AM »

1. Consider that reviews are written by different people with different tastes.

2. There is absolutely no correlation between the Editor's Choice award and a game's "mainstream appeal." We all love RPGs here. Nobody cares if they're niche or mainstream, we just care if they're good. Conception II is not that good.

3. Conception II's in-engine graphics are pretty damn ugly. I'd argue that Bravely Default looks significantly better, despite its intentionally low-fidelity style. That one's a matter of taste, I suppose.
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« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2014, 01:27:01 AM »

Also kinda find it very pot and kettle how many people here railing on Conception II with one fist but used the other to handwave pretty much all of Stick of Truth; which anything South Park is pretty much as juvenile, low-as-you-can-go, bottom of the barrel not-funny humor. I'll point it out again. SoT utilized ABORTION and ANAL RAPE (possibly of a minor; have no desire to research this particular topic but considering how many characters in the SP universe are children I think the odds are good enough to assume this until someone corrects me) multiple times for 'comedy'. Guess what it got? Editor's Choice. And yet Conception II is being ragged because of minor to moderate innuendo? *brain blown*

I don't want to go too in-depth here and I do think it's an *extremely* fair point to bring up South Park.  But I think it's the degree of humour.  South Park is much more diverse in its humour, Conception, from what I've seen/heard is much more one-tracked with titty jokes galore.  I also find it kind of sucks that, dialogue and scene-wise, a lot of the jokes have all been done before whereas South Park makes a point to see how far they can go.  A lot of South Parks attempts at showing nudity is usually showing off the 'ugly' side of it as well, not getting girls in bondage situations or other titillating scenarios.  My issue has been more that we've seen this before, and I don't get why titles like this always seem to get away with the same jokes, same scenarios, and same dialogue about large breasts and the like.

Conception plays perversion for cheap, done-before laughs and excuses to get girls interested in [veiled] sexual relationship with men under the cover of a Teen Rating.  You can't tell me Conception takes itself seriously (or maybe it does), but its out pandering to a specific market.  It shows girls in an unrealistic and cheap way too and puts emphasis on other 'assets' and quirks of theirs, but... eugh, whatever, characterization (I'm more talking about the dialogue than the character models which, hey, interesting new outfits are always fun).

South Park makes a point to be satiracal, crass, and painting the 'ugly truth' in any issue it takes on.  Often times the show served as a critique of 'today' and whatever current events more than it was trying to get simply 'yuks' from slapstick or crazy hijinks.  Also, the probe and abortion scenes were censored to some extent (iirc) but it did sit itself as a 'con' for a number of reviewers.  Otherwise, the show had effectively satirized post-9/11 hyperbole, repeatedly making ironic comedy about racism in many forms, mocking Scientology, and mocking the current state of television numerous times.

Again, I do think you're totally right to the extent of humour the games get into.  But I do think the type of humour and the type of game are quite different as well and respectively aim at a different audience.

EDIT: Also, you make it sound like South Park has *never* been in the news for its content. :P
This show came out in the late 90s, television was still in its family friendly sitcom days.... South Park stirred a TON of shit. x)

Also I know Bravely Default was reviewed by different people for this site but how do you explain that game having a significantly higher graphics score than Conception 2?  I played the demo for both (in Conceptions case I did for both consoles) and I just don't see any way to explain it other than dragging down the graphics score for the Conception 2 review to match up with the 60s it got in the other categories. 

I personally loved how Brave Default is stylized.  It gives off that SaGa Frontier II feel what with the hand drawn backgrounds.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 01:33:52 AM by Dice » Logged

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« Reply #77 on: April 16, 2014, 01:46:13 AM »

Yeah, I think I can see how the 1-Track vs diversity thing would make one particularly more unbearable over the other. So far there hasn't been any other form of comedic attempts aside from said subject material. Honestly I can't really say if Conception II takes itself seriously or not simply because so far there's enough evidence for both sides to have a valid argument.

For example. Early, early on the game exposits about how male Disciples have their power measured by their Ether Count. Even I can tell through the context this is basically set up for a 'sperm count' joke. However there's just 'something' about the delivery and its tone. There are no winks or nods to the audience. No forced press of the subject matter. It flows out unusually naturally and doesn't 'feel' like forced innuendo humor at all. Very much like the whole Crystal Insertion scene from the original Ar Tonelico. It's obvious it has that 'double side', yet the material treats the scene so straight that you have to feel it's sincerely taking itself seriously.

And then it throws pedo-priest-Roshi at the audience not two minutes later and gives us a girl with literal stars in her eyes as, yet again literally, a nun with a gun...
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If you're looking for a 'why' there's really no other honest answer than 'it works'.

Not in a complimentary or praising way mind you, at least by my opinion. Just a fact of the universe that it somehow 'works'.

I've always had the same thoughts of 'why' for all Western comedy sitcom material that endlessly shows anything male as being hopelessly sex-minded, idiotic, and a chronic liar despite being the 'protagonist'.

Strangely, now that I think about it, there's an odd parallel to be drawn here.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 01:50:42 AM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
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« Reply #78 on: April 16, 2014, 04:59:28 AM »

2. There is absolutely no correlation between the Editor's Choice award and a game's "mainstream appeal." We all love RPGs here. Nobody cares if they're niche or mainstream, we just care if they're good. Conception II is not that good.

http://www.rpgfan.com/boards/index.php?topic=10987.msg256669#msg256669

You can't say nobody does cause the Gungnir reviewer clearly passed on giving out the Editor's Choice due to lack of mainstream appeal.  I understand it's not in the official blurb about Editor's Choice Award on the site but I remembered this one cause I asked about it.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 05:07:20 AM by TiamatNM » Logged
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« Reply #79 on: April 16, 2014, 06:54:09 AM »

So to talk about the game for a change. :p I have actually come to like Ellie now that I have gotten a bit further in her events and I now have a rough idea of her backstory and it seems the most interesting so far.

Code:
Namely that she apparently used to know Wake and was either killed or severely mangled after an attack and then was turned into a robot or cyborg.

Totally hater Serina though. Completely annoying. Oh well back to grinding to get the heroine levels roughly equal. Two more to go! x_x

Yeah, I think I can see how the 1-Track vs diversity thing would make one particularly more unbearable over the other. So far there hasn't been any other form of comedic attempts aside from said subject material. Honestly I can't really say if Conception II takes itself seriously or not simply because so far there's enough evidence for both sides to have a valid argument.

For example. Early, early on the game exposits about how male Disciples have their power measured by their Ether Count. Even I can tell through the context this is basically set up for a 'sperm count' joke. However there's just 'something' about the delivery and its tone. There are no winks or nods to the audience. No forced press of the subject matter. It flows out unusually naturally and doesn't 'feel' like forced innuendo humor at all. Very much like the whole Crystal Insertion scene from the original Ar Tonelico. It's obvious it has that 'double side', yet the material treats the scene so straight that you have to feel it's sincerely taking itself seriously.
I take the opinion that Conception II intentionally takes itself too seriously....and that is the joke. And I have to say that I am disappointed that I missed the ether count=sperm count obvious connection. x_x
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« Reply #80 on: April 16, 2014, 10:20:47 AM »

Yeah, I think I can see how the 1-Track vs diversity thing would make one particularly more unbearable over the other. So far there hasn't been any other form of comedic attempts aside from said subject material. Honestly I can't really say if Conception II takes itself seriously or not simply because so far there's enough evidence for both sides to have a valid argument.

I completely agree with both this statement and Dice's comments. It's like I said earlier, the game takes itself just seriously enough and there's so little other content to keep the humor alive, that all the innuendos and skeevy comments make the game more creepy than silly.

Again, this isn't my being prude. I play plenty of JRPG's with lots of T&A and moe girls giggling about each other's boobs, and this game still managed to make me feel uncomfortable.
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Embryon
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« Reply #81 on: April 16, 2014, 11:24:50 AM »

2. There is absolutely no correlation between the Editor's Choice award and a game's "mainstream appeal." We all love RPGs here. Nobody cares if they're niche or mainstream, we just care if they're good. Conception II is not that good.

http://www.rpgfan.com/boards/index.php?topic=10987.msg256669#msg256669

You can't say nobody does cause the Gungnir reviewer clearly passed on giving out the Editor's Choice due to lack of mainstream appeal.  I understand it's not in the official blurb about Editor's Choice Award on the site but I remembered this one cause I asked about it.

Hmm. I stand corrected-- it seems like Ashton did refrain from giving an EC award to Gungnir for that reason, but his perspective does not represent the whole staff, nor does his reasoning fall in line with some kind of "rule" we have about which games we give EC to. The award is something left up to each reviewer's discretion. I've been reviewing here for four years, and I've only ever given it out three times: to Persona 4 Golden, FFXIV: ARR, and SMTIV. I certainly wouldn't say that SMTIV caters to a "mainstream" audience, for example, but it's definitely more accessible than past entries in the series.

Anyway, this is veering off topic, but it sounds like most of the people in this thread can corroborate that the gameplay mechanics in Conception II are pretty dull. Like I stated several times in the review, I didn't find the game's humor to be offensive, but it is excessively singular to the point where it becomes obsessive and unfunny. I am absolutely not prudish by any stretch of the imagination, haha.
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« Reply #82 on: April 16, 2014, 12:02:37 PM »

Being a former reviewer I thought I would help out here. Editor's Choice awards were given out at the reviewer's discretion and mostly meant they thought it was a paragon of the genre we love so much and a must play regardless if you like action rpgs', strategy rpgs etc.. although this wasn't always the case. Ashton not giving Gungnir an editor's choice award from what I read was because he thought strategy RPG buffs would love it, but maybe not people who don't normally play the genre. Makes sense that he didn't give it an editor's choice then.
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« Reply #83 on: April 16, 2014, 12:13:24 PM »

I'd give Twilight Princess a 10/10 but I doubt many people feel the same way. x)

Too much to respond to overnight...  I'll just say it's been a pleasure talking with you all (while I'm studying for exams)! :D
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« Reply #84 on: April 16, 2014, 12:37:32 PM »

I'd give Twilight Princess a 10/10 but I doubt many people feel the same way. x)


Dice pls. We all know Trixie has far more depth of character and 'deserves' such an award much more.

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On a sub note. Really hoping I finally get access to Torri tonight because so far she looks to be one of the few characters that won't be completely boxed into a worn-out cliche for the first 6 conversations. (I smell 'sealed in a lab hikikomori' here but at least that one hasn't been overexposed to me yet.) Although I can't get over the fact that she talks--with-an-extra--space-every--other-word-because----that's-how-sheltered-people--------converse-,right?
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« Reply #85 on: April 16, 2014, 12:53:47 PM »

I gave South Park the game an Editor's Choice because it was creative, stretched far beyond its source material, performed its humor well, and was one of the most memorable gaming experiences I've had, despite not being a South Park fan. I give Editor's Choice awards to games that are awesome and memorable. You'll also note that in the text of my review, I specifically point out that I took issue with some of its humor, referring directly to the rape jokes. From all I've seen, Conception is neither satire nor particularly good at its brand of humor, nor does it offer a creative or memorable gaming experience. Seems pretty clear to me which game I'd give the award to, but that's ME.

We have no problem at all with your dissent from a review-- in fact, it's quite welcome, as it stimulates conversation and gets people discussing the game more objectively (in theory). That is, provided your complaint is not "THE REVIEWER IS WRONG BECAUSE I DISAGREE." That's only a few short steps away from the utterly repugnant "THIS REVIEWER IS A GIRL/GAY/NOT MY DEMOGRAPHIC SO HE/SHE DOESN'T GET IT AND SHOULDN'T HAVE REVIEWED IT" argument. The assertion that South Park is blatantly not funny, etc etc, is pure taste, much as it seems people want to represent Conception II as being. You're always welcome to disagree, but when you nitpick and compare something from one reviewer to another, the argument falls apart.
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« Reply #86 on: April 16, 2014, 01:18:08 PM »

Well please don't get the impression I am suggesting Conception 2 deserves Editor's Choice cause that isn't what I was suggesting.  I just started going off topic when Zeron mentioned the South Park game.  I can't argue with most of the things said in the Conception review from what I've played so far I just took issue with a couple of the comments in it.  Even back in the demo I was skeptical of the battle system because it seemed like it wasn't worth it to try to chain anything.  However, I liked it enough to get the full game so here I am :P

"Conception II does has some decent art direction when it isn't being pervy."  > Why doesn't it have decent art direction while being pervy?  Or are  the transformation scenes and jiggling 2D portraits not pervy?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 01:31:15 PM by TiamatNM » Logged
ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #87 on: April 16, 2014, 01:47:48 PM »

In hindsight using the 'Editor's Choice' remark was the wrong word set to go with. I was already getting rather wordy and looking for something short/simple to get the point across. The comparison was meant to be a bit more universal. Since SoT received wide praise across the gaming review boards with commentary on the squickier material tending to be a footnote or a 'sweep it under the run', in general. Where as a majority of C-2 reviews bring up the whole innuendo thing as the primary point and tend not to let it go.

Which might've accidentally framed it as a specific-review targeting comment. Apologies as that was not the intention.

Really about the only thing I disagree with in the review is the knocks against the sound. Subjectivity with tastes in music aside, I still really feel reviews can't be allowed to call something 'poor voice acting' if it's not in the same league as anything like this.

Conception II isn't anywhere close to bad in the VA department. It's merely average with some sub-par direction choices.

But really that's just a nitpick on my part.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 01:59:14 PM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
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« Reply #88 on: April 16, 2014, 02:11:29 PM »

It's time to stop using 15 year old games as the benchmark for bad voice acting.
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« Reply #89 on: April 16, 2014, 02:26:23 PM »

It's time to stop using 15 year old games as the benchmark for bad voice acting.

Agreed. Voice acting was just starting in videogames. It is much worse when a game has bad voice acting nowadays rather than back then.
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