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Author Topic: A message to Bethesda Game Studios from a fan.  (Read 1655 times)
MeshGearFox
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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2014, 08:55:32 PM »

They're not KNOWINGLY selling broken games. Hanlon's razor, bro.

Sorry, but I just don't believe that.

They had to know what the problems were with their games before they released, given the amount of problems that exist.

Most of the problems are:

1. Rather obscure scripting issues that you're not going to turn up during a QA cycle.
2. Issues with whatever middleware Bethesda is using, and as such are out of their control.
3. Issues related to stuff slowly getting messed up over the course of the game in really minor ways that eventually add up but aren't something you're necessarily going to notice through usual QA cycles.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Problematic_Glitches is a good example of what I'm talking about. I think at least two of those involves involve finishing some quest while another quest is active. Assuming that Oblivion has 200 quests total, if you wanted a systematic approach to finding glitches like that you're looking at at least 40000 test cases. It's not doable.

--- edit ---

Also I think Bethesda's biggest problem has always been a complete lack of awareness about what they're doing -- and then they're catering to a fanbase that's equally unaware and thoroughly in the "games aren't supposed to be fun" camp.

Here's an example: One of the things that Daggerfall had that Morrowind did not was your criminal status being on a per-town basis, meaning that if you were a wanted murderer in Sentinel, you could still NOT be a criminal in, say, Wayrest until you committed a crime there as well.

In comparison, in Morrowind, if you commit a crime in Balmora, the guards are still going to go after you if you run to Ald Ruhn.

In and of itself, this is a cool idea, and since Daggerfall has a lot of towns, it means that if you did something to break the law in one town, you could flee and it wasn't necessarily a "Whoops, time to reload" situation.

The problem is that there aren't a lot of reasons to commit crimes in Daggerfall in the first place, because the only real crimes are murder and theft, and there aren't any tangible benefits for doing either, besides getting into the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood. Which, er, don't really offer any unique services that the other factions don't.

Basically the only reason to steal in Daggerfall is for the sake of stealing and that sort of defeats the purpose of having all of the crime/theft base mechanics in the first place, besides from giving the player a fairly meaningless choice for the sake of doing so.

Also I think doing Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild missions just... result in you advancing in rank in the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild. You won't even get any bonuses with the nobility factions, which is necessary to advance the plot, and the only rewards you get from the quests are gold, which... you run out of stuff worth buying after awhile.

So yeah. Two entire factions and several game mechanics that you have no reason to even bother with.

Although the BIGGEST problem is that the quests just aren't fun to do anyway.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 11:21:17 PM by MeshGearFox » Logged

o/` I do not feel joy o/`
o/` I do not dream o/`
o/` I only stare at the door and smoke o/`

Yoda
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« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2014, 11:06:14 PM »

I love Mesh.
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Annubis
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2014, 11:11:39 PM »

Agreed
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deathsaber
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« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2014, 12:18:28 PM »

Its all a matter of perspective- when I had a 360, I was perfectly fine with Fallout 3, and Oblivion.  If I had to reload because of a minor bug, or a quest line glitched out- oh well. 

However, later I sold the 360 and used ps3 exclusively.  Having that platform for Skyrim was maddening- words don't describe watching your games framerate slowing turn into a worsening slideshow over 30 hours of play upon which it was finally nearly unplayable.  I'd start to dread entering/going near towns where it was at worst and at that point i put the game down, never to return. 

And before people criticize- i'm a console gamer only, no "get a pc" posts please.  The point is, the game released on ps3, it should work.  And from what I've read, this isn't isolated.  Fallout 3, New Vegas, I hear were also disasters on ps3, because Bethesda couldn't figure out how to manage the memory space they had to work with on ps3.   
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2014, 07:28:33 PM »

I feel like reviewers are way too willing to give Bethesda a pass on the bugs in their games. Like, the bugs in New Vegas were WAY more of a sticking point for reviewers than the ones in Oblivion/FO3 -- even though a lot of them were things Obsidian inherited from Bethesda and probably couldn't do much with (and I don't think ANYONE'S made NetImmerse/Gamebryo performant. Civ IV was the closest).
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o/` I do not dream o/`
o/` I only stare at the door and smoke o/`

Zendervai
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« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2014, 11:05:52 PM »

Its all a matter of perspective- when I had a 360, I was perfectly fine with Fallout 3, and Oblivion.  If I had to reload because of a minor bug, or a quest line glitched out- oh well. 

However, later I sold the 360 and used ps3 exclusively.  Having that platform for Skyrim was maddening- words don't describe watching your games framerate slowing turn into a worsening slideshow over 30 hours of play upon which it was finally nearly unplayable.  I'd start to dread entering/going near towns where it was at worst and at that point i put the game down, never to return. 

And before people criticize- i'm a console gamer only, no "get a pc" posts please.  The point is, the game released on ps3, it should work.  And from what I've read, this isn't isolated.  Fallout 3, New Vegas, I hear were also disasters on ps3, because Bethesda couldn't figure out how to manage the memory space they had to work with on ps3.   

Yeah, I agree. Something like the dragons flying backwards? Hilarious glitch that doesn't really impact the game much, and is fine as long as it's dealt with eventually. Horrible framerates and game crashing bugs? Not excusable.
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Lard
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« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2014, 10:14:14 AM »


Most of the problems are:

1. Rather obscure scripting issues that you're not going to turn up during a QA cycle.
2. Issues with whatever middleware Bethesda is using, and as such are out of their control.
3. Issues related to stuff slowly getting messed up over the course of the game in really minor ways that eventually add up but aren't something you're necessarily going to notice through usual QA cycles.

And yet they know these problems are there, particularly on PS3, and they still released the games and didn't bother to patch them.
I have a hard time believing the significant difference between PS3 and 360 and PC is something that didn't turn up during the QA cycle.
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Annubis
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« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2014, 10:34:51 AM »

(and I don't think ANYONE'S made NetImmerse/Gamebryo performant. Civ IV was the closest).

Wasn't Catherine Gamebryo? Probably the best game using it.
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Zendervai
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« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2014, 12:21:41 PM »

(and I don't think ANYONE'S made NetImmerse/Gamebryo performant. Civ IV was the closest).

Wasn't Catherine Gamebryo? Probably the best game using it.

Catherine is very heavily scripted, so it would be much easier to bug test. So, I guess basically, Gamebryo seems to work better, when the games are linear and have no open world elements. Too bad Bethesda only really makes open world games.
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Kevadu
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« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2014, 05:23:40 PM »

Has anyone else noticed that this is the only topic posted by ol' Back2Basics that has gotten any kind of discussion yet he hasn't contributed at all?  Even when we're directly challenging his assumptions.

If ever you needed evidence that he's just a link-spammer...
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Starmongoose
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« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2014, 05:35:19 PM »

Oh, is this the guy where I changed all his links to Rick Astley?
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2014, 07:45:49 PM »

(and I don't think ANYONE'S made NetImmerse/Gamebryo performant. Civ IV was the closest).

Wasn't Catherine Gamebryo? Probably the best game using it.

Catherine is very heavily scripted, so it would be much easier to bug test. So, I guess basically, Gamebryo seems to work better, when the games are linear and have no open world elements. Too bad Bethesda only really makes open world games.

No I mean Gamebryo's rendering stuff is just inefficient. It's not about bugs. It was worse when it was still NetImmerse, too -- it has improved over time. Also it's easier to optimize stuff for a console since you're dealing with consistent hardware, all across the board, turtles all the way down.

--- edit ---

Anyway, OOO and MMM for Oblivion sound interesting so I'm gonna go try those out, since I have a laptop that should be able to handle Oblivion now (it runs Fallout: NV just dandy for the most part).

I have some obsession with Morrowind where I feel like I can recognize that it's not a very good game but I can't really place my finger on /why/. So I keep trying to play it and see if it'll eventually click for me.

--- edit 2 ---

Welp, Oblivion was as lame as I remember.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 11:50:37 AM by MeshGearFox » Logged

o/` I do not feel joy o/`
o/` I do not dream o/`
o/` I only stare at the door and smoke o/`

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