Author Topic: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)

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Maxximum

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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #105 on: October 07, 2016, 02:41:02 AM »
You do realise this is a play log, documenting her playthrough and impressions. So, trying to tell her that she's "wrong" about enjoying the game is rather pointless. A wall of text over four posts, including a "review", and you've proven absolutely nothing. I'm pretty sure that if I trim down the avalanche of words that tumbled down from your angry keyboard, we'd be left with "I didn't like FFIX, I think the other games are better".
You are perfectly welcome to have an opinion, just make sure you don't take it too far by making it personal.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 03:04:53 AM by Maxximum »
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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #106 on: November 02, 2016, 02:29:33 AM »
Whoa hey! The FF9 thread got some attention recently, didn't even notice...

Wow way too much to get into but I agree that Garland and Terra and a lot of that were some of the more interesting parts of the game and it's a shame they got put into the back end basically.
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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #107 on: November 13, 2016, 08:53:17 PM »
Whoa hey! The FF9 thread got some attention recently, didn't even notice...

Wow way too much to get into but I agree that Garland and Terra and a lot of that were some of the more interesting parts of the game and it's a shame they got put into the back end basically.

My "gaming dream-come-true" would be a remake of this game that's just a bit more fleshed out.  I'm psyched as all hell that FF7R is being made in the meanwhile and really hope the entire FF series can get a makeover --- my top on that list would be FF9.
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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #108 on: November 29, 2016, 11:10:50 AM »
Whoa hey! The FF9 thread got some attention recently, didn't even notice...

Wow way too much to get into but I agree that Garland and Terra and a lot of that were some of the more interesting parts of the game and it's a shame they got put into the back end basically.

My "gaming dream-come-true" would be a remake of this game that's just a bit more fleshed out.  I'm psyched as all hell that FF7R is being made in the meanwhile and really hope the entire FF series can get a makeover --- my top on that list would be FF9.

For sure, remaking FF9 could be pretty awesome.
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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #109 on: December 08, 2016, 06:44:03 AM »
Now I want to go back and replay IX again. So underrated. Probably tied for my 3rd favorite FF game with VII, and behind IV and VI.

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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #110 on: December 08, 2016, 08:04:04 AM »
Ooo please do and come back at me!  I'd love to hear other peeps thoughts.
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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #111 on: December 09, 2016, 12:16:53 AM »
I'd actually call it overrated before I called it underrated. Now, FF9 for a while was my second favorite FF, but upon multiple playthroughs and looking at it with a more critical eye, the game has some glaring issues. The pacing is all over the place, the original version does not hold up at all from a technical standpoint, the character progression and customization is pretty uninspired, and the battle system as a whole is plain old boring.

I'm not listing these things to say that it's a bad game, I just think it gets a little too much credit since it was a bit of an underdog when it was initially judged.

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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #112 on: December 09, 2016, 06:26:10 AM »
Those are fair points. I think I really just enjoyed it so much because it felt like it was a throwback game to the really FF games. Completely different from FF8, which I thoroughly disliked.

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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #113 on: December 13, 2016, 05:14:29 PM »
The pacing is all over the place, the original version does not hold up at all from a technical standpoint

I can't see why IX gets judged on a 'technical standpoint' whereas 7 and 8 are just as bad in their owns ways.   They're both easy to break, for one, but IX's biggest problem was its less interesting battle system teaming up with long load times and a thief who can't steal for shit.

But I gotta throw some "naw" at the pacing issues.  Maybe I just don't know what 'amazing pacing' is, but I thought the game balanced dungeons against downtime very well.
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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #114 on: December 13, 2016, 07:46:30 PM »
Maybe it's just me, but everything after you get off the Mist Continent feels like a slog, barring anything involving the Iifa Tree. But yeah, my main issue is that battle system. Even the other FF's with equally bland battle systems at least had plenty of bosses with interesting mechanics or gimmicks. FFIX on the other hand rarely had anything like that.

I still love the game. It's charming and well-written and the characters actually manage to bond over a common theme. But any attempt I make to replay it usually ends after the first visit to Lindblum.

Jmariofan7

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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #115 on: December 24, 2016, 04:08:10 PM »
You've made your point - you don't like this game.  And you've done so by being rude to somebody else, which is not the way we like people to do things around here.

You're not off to a good start with your first four posts.  Shape up, or they can be basically your only four posts.

How was I being rude?

This is all constructive criticism, and I wasn't personally attacking anyone.

In all honesty, the amount of praise this game gets irritates me, but I was pointing out all the overlooked and major problems the game itself has, I wasn't making any personal attacks against the posters.

It sounds like you simply don't like people giving criticism to a game you like, regardless of how much a point they have and how it's all constructive.

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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #116 on: December 24, 2016, 04:29:44 PM »
You've made your point - you don't like this game.  And you've done so by being rude to somebody else, which is not the way we like people to do things around here.

You're not off to a good start with your first four posts.  Shape up, or they can be basically your only four posts.

How was I being rude?

This is all constructive criticism, and I wasn't personally attacking anyone.

In all honesty, the amount of praise this game gets irritates me, but I was pointing out all the overlooked and major problems the game itself has, I wasn't making any personal attacks against the posters.

It sounds like you simply don't like people giving criticism to a game you like, regardless of how much a point they have and how it's all constructive.

Here's what may be confusing you. Dice is hugely popular on the forums and is a member of staff (though not when she did this? I can't remember), and wrote a lovely, thought-provoking memoire of her journey through the game for other members of the forum to enjoy. Many loved it, including me, and others respectfully gave their counter-opinions to some parts if they felt like it.

Here's where you went wrong though, you would grab many points she made and were incessantly negative. In fact, I can't even imagine what possessed you to read this journal in its entirety when you so clearly loathe the game and all it does. You basically just come in, as a complete nobody, shit all over someones opinions, thrust your own review in (lol. ok). This isn't normal social behavior.

I like to think I'm pretty forgiving on these forums, I don't throw the banhammer around lightly, but we do have a code of conduct here. It's not the Youtube comments section, it's not GameFaqs, it's not whatever free-for-all site your used to. It's real people sharing thoughts and ideas in a respectful way.

Now, what I just said isn't really open for debate. So don't reply with a "How was  I disrespectful?". The only people who matter in this case have said your tone was inappropriate, especially for a newcommer. So either shrug it off and join us or don't come back.


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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #117 on: December 24, 2016, 07:49:59 PM »
Honestly it's not even Jmariofan7 tone or rudeness that bugged me, just that his arguments didn't convince me at all.

Like...
Quote
Beatrix spends that part of the game basically being a one-dimensional warmongerer constantly flaunting her own selfish ego and showing no hesitation or remorse at her actions
... where I can't think of any in-game evidence to support any part of this.

Or this passage here:
Quote
Garnet played no important role in this subplot, they would have gotten the Supersoft with or without her "help", she actually made the situation WORSE, by dragging Marcus into the castle and getting captured, and he was lucky to not be immediately executed, and regardless none of this justifies the fact that Garnet's idiotic decision got many people killed and intire cities blown up and almost got Zidane and her friends KILLED. Honestly Blank wouldn't have been happen with Garnet (let's be honest, Blank was in no danger of dying) he would furious with her for abandoning his foster brother (hurting him deeply) and dooming him to getting killed in the warzone of the Burmecian Provence and making the whole reason Blank sacrificed himself in the first completely pointless.
Which is just a frustrating misunderstanding of how the game chooses to handle its narrative because of Jmariofan7's own hypotheticals and presumptions about character feelings and motives (like that last sentence).
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 08:20:19 PM by Dice »
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Jmariofan7

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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #118 on: December 27, 2016, 01:18:15 AM »
 

1) I'm just going with the punches of the story.  I feel like Zidane's spotlight comes waaaay too coincidentally and way too contrived to feel real.  But, alas, I do like how the game does give Zidane some backstory.  I don't really care for how the Terra bit fits into the game's plot, and FF9 sets it up as an almost "big bad" only for the older/real villain to take the reigns in the finale.  It's not my favorite, but I do like the story as it unfolds and the drama between the characters to be pretty fulfilling (some more than others).  Like a "Tales of" game, I'm less sold on the overall plot of FF9 than I am by it's charming settings and big motley crew cast of lovable weirdos.

--

2) I think the plot of FF9 was meant to call back elements of previous games and it intentionally "feels familiar".  So I can't say I agree with the overall tone and scope of the plot.  I do have issues with it, which I do mention, but I'm honestly less convinced games can *often* have good plots.  I feel there's standouts, and I feel game plots can be good game plots, but a lot of them do contain contrived or grandiose elements to usually turn things into a "save the world" affair. 

3) That said, I loved playing FF9's story, elements felt especially human when the fantasy elements were put aside.  Garnet trying to save her mother despite the things she's done is because betraying family isn't a plot thread that SHOULD come easily.  Another issue I have with RPGs is when they DO often focus on tragic sob story pasts; everyone has to be damaged to be interesting and experience some sort of catharsis/revelation during their journey.  But a character like Eiko or Vivi are simply too young to have much of a "tragic backstory" (Vivi gets his somewhat spelled out for us at Quan's Dwelling which I thought was pretty cool).  Steiner indeed questioned his loyalties, it took some time (he IS loyal after all!), but he came around.  Freya admittedly gets a bit shafted as soon as the Cleyra bit is over (and her love story ends on a bittersweet note, so I don't understand what you mean by "hijacking" Garnet/Zidane), but Amarant doesn't really strike me as a man who would talk or get sad about a tragic past even if he had one —— his development in game (to "play along" and become a friend) is just the right amount of development (and cheese) for a character of his type.

4) I don't doubt you like FF13, and I like FF13 (just probably not as much as you).  But hey, some people reeeaaallly like FF7, some people reeeaaallly like FF6, and some people reeeaaallly like FF10.  You can't win them all, and I don't see why you keep bringing up 13.  FF games are sort of unique in that each game really seems to have its subsets of fans, but, to some extent, I find the games pretty hard to compare to each other because their tone, atmosphere, gameplay (especially in the PSX era and on) have been wildly different.  Beyond broad strokes, I usually don't like comparing titles since they seem to have different goals.

5) The nitpicking on Beatrix is odd.  I mean, how the hell can our party take on dragons and giant beasts?  Why couldn't we just kill Golbez in FF4, because we didn't "level up" enough?  I DUNNO!  So I'm afraid I have to respectfully ignore that point as something FF games and RPGs love bringing in some overpowered character.

6) woahwoahwoah whaaat?  I mean, parts of this are okay, but that's a LOT of new plot for a game that never would have hinted at this otherwise.  You literally derailed the plot that's there and I think you're putting way too much stock in this.  As for Kuja, the only way I "defend" him is because....hearing you're about to die probably makes you feel like complete shit; problem is Kuja is insane and insanely powerful and retaliated.  I didn't really feel much as a villain except for that moment where his death became inevitable and he couldn't stop it despite his newfound power.
Also, I'm happy to get into games I like, but I'm not really good with imagining hypothetical scenarios that didn't happen in the game.  Not my style.

7) Also also, I think Yuna and Tidus lost a bit of their magic with X-2 and X-2.5

1) Kuja is not the real antagonist, the real antagonist was always Garland, and Necron had he been better built up and executed, even after Garlands death he is still this, and secondly RPG's are all about well written plots, again to quote socksmakepeoplesexy and their review of the game:

"Then there is the matter of Final Fantasy IX's story. It's a mess -- pure and simple. But so were most early Final Fantasy games' plots, and we didn't hold it against them. Why judge IX's so severely, then? The answer is because we're now at the point where an RPG's story is about as equally important as its gameplay when determining its overall quality. The genie's out of the bottle now, and there's no stuffing it back in. When a game has hundreds of pages' worth of dialogue and enough minutes of FMV to fill a half-hour television slot, the narrative it spins has to be equally engrossing as the time a player spends running around and killing monsters, or else it becomes a hindrance. A more pessimistic -- but perhaps equally valid -- standpoint would be to suggest that in a game like Final Fantasy, the story is the payoff the player earns for slogging through all those dungeons and fighting all those random battles, and if the story with which he or she is rewarded isn't up to snuff, the game does not succeed. Whether this applies to Final Fantasy IX (or any other entry in the series) is debatable, of course, but it's something to be considered. At any rate, Final Fantasy IX's story really could have been better, and the entire experience suffers for it"
And I'd hardly call most of FFIX's characters "lovable", aside from Eiko, Vivi and Quina, they were all bland, dull, clichè or obnoxious.

2) The problems is that IX tries way too hard to bask in the Nostalgia of the previous games, to the point that instead of trying to evolve or tinker around with the plot threads they're reusing, said plots are are actually weaker and lazily written compared to the originals, such as the mentioned above Zidane revelation thing basically being a rehash of Cloud's from FFVII minus all the great build up from minute one, as Socksmakepeoplesexy nicely put it, and Beatrix basically being a poorly written version of Cecil Harvey from FFIV and Celes Chere from FFVI but we'll get to Beatrix in a second, the point is FFIX made no effort to improve and evolve on these plotlines and be creative. This one reviewer on Meta Critic summed it up best: "Doesn't offer very much that is new. The game is more than a little formulaic at times, using rehashed bits from other Final Fantasy games and not taking them any further."

3) The characters felt WAY too trope-ish, stereotypical and Clichè to be "human" (especially characters like Kuja and Brahne).
About Garnet, that's not the point, the real problem is Garnet's brain numbingly stupid actions and selfishness that make her downright unsympathetic and seriously damages the love story with Zidane, as stated before from the very start Garnet should have known that Kuja (aka the "suspicious person", which is an understatement) was the source of the problem and everybody should have focused on him, rather than wasting our time with that idiotic "return to Alexandria" plotline which, again, rendered the intire beginning of the game pointless and the sacrifices of several people (the black mages on the cargo airship) completely meaningless, wasted MORE of the players time by forcing them to play through the large section of Garnet's stupidity (it was just painful and drawn out for a forgone conclusion), caused the deaths of many AND almost getting Zidane and her friends killed, whom she selfishly abandoned and risk their lives despite everything they did for her, that's the equivalent of fighting the symptoms of the disease rather than fighting the disease itself, I mean if a mysterious person shows up, starts having discussions with your mom and your mom start going crazy it should be INCREDIBLY obvious that the "suspicious person" is the one responsible and you should be going after HIM.

Check out these fanfics called "The Thief and his Princess" and "Zidane of Burmecia" they show much better ways this part of the game should have gone:

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/6925384/14/The-Thief-And-His-Princess

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11905475/1/Zidane-of-Burmecia


This whole thing could have been completely avoided had the characters simply stated the obvious.
As for the others, the problem with Steiner is that his whole schtick far outstays it's welcome, he's a stereotypical character whose obnoxious attitude gets dragged out far longer than it should have, plus what makes his development even poorer is how it takes place during Garnet's own stupidity and how he also kinda responsible for what happens to Cleyra and Lindblum. What I mean by Freya hijacking Zidane/Garnet is that the way it plays out feels like this, although Garnet stupid decision is more to blame for this, and finally for Amarant, I didn't say he should have a "sob story", just to have an actually interesting story as opposed to the cheap and lazy one we got in game, he was just a poor rehash of Shadow from FFVI, again "The Thief and his Princess" fanfic shows a better one for Amarant.

4) Because the amount of hate 13 gets has gotten ridiculous, while 9, which I honestly consider to have the weakest storytelling in the series, constantly has it's flaws overlooked or completely glossed over thanks to vocal minority, say what you will about 13 but that game didn't have nearly as many plot holes, idiot moments and etc. as 9 did, again Garnet being one of my case in points.

5) Golbez was a half Lunarian, brainwashed by Zemus and made into a powerful sorcerer, plus he also had the assistance of the four fiends along with some dark creatures that he could summon/command at will such as the dark dragon, while Beatrix was just a normal person that while was a general with execellent combat skills had no reasons to be able to repeatedly curb stomp the Angel of Death (Zidane) whom was basically the Mewtwo/Shadow the Hedgehog of FFIX, created to be the ultimate weapon filled with so much unnatural power which even if was mostly dormant in the past should have started awakening quickly, nor should the same go for a knight (Steiner) that was part of the army just as long as she was even if he was a buffoon. The giant beasts and dragons are just weaker versions of some enemies, plus there are also summoners that make up the players that can summon powerful entities to smite their opponents so this argument dosen't stand. This is what I mean by God Moder, Beatrix is far stronger than she should be.

6) It's not a "hypothetical scenario" it's constructive criticism for a better written more creative story, the problem here is that Brahne is an extremely generic character that we've seen a million times: an ugly overweight (which sends out the unfortunate implications that unattractive/overweight people are evil) stereotypical, one dimensional, unfit character with no real characterization beyond having a unrealistic motivation and being evil for the sake of being evil, as stated before, FFIX cheaply reuses previous plot threads with no effort to evolve them, and this particular thread has been done to death already in the previous FFs, Brahne is basically another Gestahl/Shinra/Vinzer clone who has one of the most unrealistic motivations ever, she's just... greedy, as "Final Fantasy? Whatever"'s review pointed out greed does not motivate massive violence and genocide, real dictators like Adolf Hitler didn't do the things they did because they "wanted jewels", it was because of twisted theologies and other views and also poor childhoods leading up to that moment, Brahne never had a bad childhood and things such as her father and biological daughter passing away were recent things, but she still had an adoptive daughter that looked just like her biological one, but then she becomes evil just 'cause, what I'm trying to say is that 9 should have deconstructed this particular plot thread, which is why I'm saying Beatrix should have been the queen, as stated in my review instead of what I've just described Brahne above, we have a combat oriented slim attractive disk one final boss, who wasn't truly bad but was misguided into thinking she could bring back her daughter and husband, and instead of just being fodder for the apparent antagonist, she lives and atones for her actions. I don't get what you're trying to say with Kuja, my point is that Kuja as a sympathetic and tragic character is poorly executed, he is unintentionally unsympathetic.

I made some pages on Deviantart about a better constructed FFIX scenario:

http://jmariofan7.deviantart.com/art/How-Final-Fantasy-IX-Should-have-gone-599191594

http://jmariofan7.deviantart.com/art/How-FFIX-Should-Have-Gone-Part-2-599194256

7) So spending the intire game trying to figure out how to bring back Tidus means "losing it's magic"?
At least Tidus and Yuna stood by each other, and didn't abandon them the first chance they get and even risk the other's LIFE, because she selfishly cared more about her psychotic mother whom she suspected was going crazy only to suddenly about-face and couldn't think of a much better strategy and constantly wangsted about it.


Jmariofan7

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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #119 on: December 27, 2016, 01:28:04 AM »
You've made your point - you don't like this game.  And you've done so by being rude to somebody else, which is not the way we like people to do things around here.

You're not off to a good start with your first four posts.  Shape up, or they can be basically your only four posts.

How was I being rude?

This is all constructive criticism, and I wasn't personally attacking anyone.

In all honesty, the amount of praise this game gets irritates me, but I was pointing out all the overlooked and major problems the game itself has, I wasn't making any personal attacks against the posters.

It sounds like you simply don't like people giving criticism to a game you like, regardless of how much a point they have and how it's all constructive.

Here's what may be confusing you. Dice is hugely popular on the forums and is a member of staff (though not when she did this? I can't remember), and wrote a lovely, thought-provoking memoire of her journey through the game for other members of the forum to enjoy. Many loved it, including me, and others respectfully gave their counter-opinions to some parts if they felt like it.

Here's where you went wrong though, you would grab many points she made and were incessantly negative. In fact, I can't even imagine what possessed you to read this journal in its entirety when you so clearly loathe the game and all it does. You basically just come in, as a complete nobody, shit all over someones opinions, thrust your own review in (lol. ok). This isn't normal social behavior.

I like to think I'm pretty forgiving on these forums, I don't throw the banhammer around lightly, but we do have a code of conduct here. It's not the Youtube comments section, it's not GameFaqs, it's not whatever free-for-all site your used to. It's real people sharing thoughts and ideas in a respectful way.

Now, what I just said isn't really open for debate. So don't reply with a "How was  I disrespectful?". The only people who matter in this case have said your tone was inappropriate, especially for a newcommer. So either shrug it off and join us or don't come back.

I wasn't "taking a dump" on her opinions, I was talking about the game itself, I wasn't trying to be disrespectful I was simply trying to point out overlooked problems, I wasn't insulting her nor was I trying to, there are some things I like about 9 but there are too many problems with it's story.