Author Topic: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)

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Dincrest

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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #90 on: October 23, 2015, 07:04:09 AM »
I'll offer my take on Necron here later today.  It is something I have said about him in many FFIX threads.

And here is my take as copy-pasted from a prior RPGFan thread. 

Pat/Ramza, I disagree with your read of Necron [being some abstract representation of Kuja's fears and such.].  For me, Kuja could not be the final boss because even if he dies, Terra would still chow down on Gaia, like how Unicron or Galactus eats planets since it is a conscious being.  So to me, the party still had to kill this worldlike planet-devouring entitiy and Necron was like the core of it.  All that jibberish Necron said?  I thought it was just stuff to try and make the predator intimidate the prey for an easier kill.  But it backfired.

When Zidane defeated Kuja, he saved Kuja.  When Zidane and company defeated Necron, they saved their home world of Gaia.  Even at the very end, Necron decides, "okay, this prey is too strong for me to try to kill and eat.  I'd better move on to an easy prey planet to eat." 

In any case, this is how the final battle against Kuja should have gone down: http://mooncalf.org/library/parody/eikosboyfriend.html (EDIT: This is probably my favorite of Mooncalf's parody fics.  Be warned, other fanfics on her site are NSFW.) 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 10:47:31 AM by Dincrest »
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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #91 on: October 24, 2015, 10:14:05 AM »
Don't think I have much to add to the summary other than that this is one of those RPGs I'll always love for the charm despite any flaws in terms of gameplay, alongside Grandia and mayyybe Rhapsody. The images for the backgrounds and the gifs for the endings are really appreciated- it's really hard to appreciate how nice the former looks when you can't see the whole thing at once.

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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #92 on: October 26, 2015, 12:10:05 AM »
I'll offer my take on Necron here later today.  It is something I have said about him in many FFIX threads.

And here is my take as copy-pasted from a prior RPGFan thread. 

Pat/Ramza, I disagree with your read of Necron [being some abstract representation of Kuja's fears and such.].  For me, Kuja could not be the final boss because even if he dies, Terra would still chow down on Gaia, like how Unicron or Galactus eats planets since it is a conscious being.  So to me, the party still had to kill this worldlike planet-devouring entitiy and Necron was like the core of it.  All that jibberish Necron said?  I thought it was just stuff to try and make the predator intimidate the prey for an easier kill.  But it backfired.

When Zidane defeated Kuja, he saved Kuja.  When Zidane and company defeated Necron, they saved their home world of Gaia.  Even at the very end, Necron decides, "okay, this prey is too strong for me to try to kill and eat.  I'd better move on to an easy prey planet to eat." 

In any case, this is how the final battle against Kuja should have gone down: http://mooncalf.org/library/parody/eikosboyfriend.html (EDIT: This is probably my favorite of Mooncalf's parody fics.  Be warned, other fanfics on her site are NSFW.) 

I like any idea that Necron is more figurative villain than a "real (plot-related) one".  Indeed I think he stems as a device to serve some abstract part of the story (the idea of death, the idea of fear, or a presentation and final hurdle to demonstrate the heroes' "convictions") than an integral/necessary part of the plot to finish (they could have finished it with Kuja, but they chose not to).

Adorable fan fic btw. x)

Don't think I have much to add to the summary other than that this is one of those RPGs I'll always love for the charm despite any flaws in terms of gameplay, alongside Grandia and mayyybe Rhapsody. The images for the backgrounds and the gifs for the endings are really appreciated- it's really hard to appreciate how nice the former looks when you can't see the whole thing at once.

Likewise.  The lengthy battles haven't really stopped me from replaying this game every few years.  It's fun, it's charming, it's heart-warming, it's funny.  The characters feel very real and alive despite the somewhat cartoonish and fantasy backdrop.  Not to harp on FF13's already luke warm fanfare, but with the PSX and PS2 era of FF's it's kinda easy to see why (and, iirc, a lot of people compliment FF13...just not as an "FF" title and all that entails).  It's great to go back to areas, to experience downtime, to catch up with old party members and NPCs.  Sure FF9 can't ever say its gameplay was as unique or in-depth, but neither can FF13 claim to be particularly charming or have strong characters and villains and story that isn't lost on some other aspect of itself.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 12:13:20 AM by Dice »
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Dincrest

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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #93 on: October 26, 2015, 05:16:49 PM »
I still can't view Kuja as the final boss.  If you defeat Kuja, Terra (the planet-devouring entity growing like a tumor inside the world- though it used to be a separate entity like Unicron or Galactus) is still going to eat Gaia (the world everyone's been living and adventuring in) so Zidane and company, after defeating Kuja, still had to save their world from being eaten from the inside.  I took Necron to be the core of that "tumor that consumes the world from the inside out" but his sudden appearance was poorly written. 
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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #94 on: October 27, 2015, 10:34:31 PM »
I still can't view Kuja as the final boss.  If you defeat Kuja, Terra (the planet-devouring entity growing like a tumor inside the world- though it used to be a separate entity like Unicron or Galactus) is still going to eat Gaia (the world everyone's been living and adventuring in) so Zidane and company, after defeating Kuja, still had to save their world from being eaten from the inside.  I took Necron to be the core of that "tumor that consumes the world from the inside out" but his sudden appearance was poorly written. 

I can totally get behind that then (especially with the admission of your last statement).  The whole 4th disc is pretty awkward in some regard, Memoria being a big magic super space that came out of fat air, Necron being much the same works too (yes both memoria and Nec still being 'vital' in some ways to that plot).

My GJ never really referred to Kuja as the final boss, and I think I said, I was glad in some ways that it wasn't.
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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #95 on: October 28, 2015, 02:20:02 AM »
I still can't view Kuja as the final boss.  If you defeat Kuja, Terra (the planet-devouring entity growing like a tumor inside the world- though it used to be a separate entity like Unicron or Galactus) is still going to eat Gaia (the world everyone's been living and adventuring in) so Zidane and company, after defeating Kuja, still had to save their world from being eaten from the inside.  I took Necron to be the core of that "tumor that consumes the world from the inside out" but his sudden appearance was poorly written. 

I can totally get behind that then (especially with the admission of your last statement).  The whole 4th disc is pretty awkward in some regard, Memoria being a big magic super space that came out of fat air, Necron being much the same works too (yes both memoria and Nec still being 'vital' in some ways to that plot).

My GJ never really referred to Kuja as the final boss, and I think I said, I was glad in some ways that it wasn't.

Too bad Dissidia does (well not that bad since he's pretty hammy and he's a far cry above assholes like Necron or Thorn/Zorn, and there are far worse interpretations of some characters in that game).
In my vision, I see that one of us is going to KO the other.

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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #96 on: October 28, 2015, 04:04:38 PM »
Still, nothing compares to the "pulled out of the ass" endgame sequence of Final Fantasy VIII.  The ending was visually stunning but man the whole thing, castle and all, was nothing short of wacky.  Still my favorite FF, though. 
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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #97 on: October 28, 2015, 04:21:12 PM »
Still, nothing compares to the "pulled out of the ass" endgame sequence of Final Fantasy VIII.  The ending was visually stunning but man the whole thing, castle and all, was nothing short of wacky.  Still my favorite FF, though. 

I get the chills during that sequence.  Really well done, very trippy then very sweet.

And I mean, what's better than hole-in-head Squall?
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I've never really seen this lets play Journals but I read a bunch of this, clearly it takes a lot of effort and energy to make and yet it is kind of nice to read and such, so.. cool!

I'd also like to add that I personally thought Necron was specifically just supposed to sort of come out of nowhere because they wanted to do the whole Kuja backstory thing, which meant well he wouldn't make for much of a pure final boss.

Although I mean I'm sure they could of still done that.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 02:04:19 PM by Artimicia »
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Re: Dice Plays FFIX
« Reply #99 on: October 06, 2016, 12:41:47 AM »

1)  I love that Garnet's encounter with Marcus and Cinna is treated as a "chance" opportunity that leads to a pretty cool adventure (it reminds of Sabin's grand escapade during the FF6 which began because he went "river rafting" trying to kill Ultros)

2) = One thing I love about the Treno segment is that there is HARDLY any fighting (one optional battle, and two easy bosses). It's a nice break period form what came before and what's coming soon.  It doesn't feel like many games these days really do afford a sort of "relaxation periods" beyond what a sandbox title might in screwing around and exploring.  And I like that this segment still manages to give some character development and story progress (albeit in a bit of a B-plot to finally save Blank).  The "stealing supersoft" event didn't actually HAVE to happen since Garnet recognized the person who owned it, but it affords us time to get some insight into Garnet and Steiner, two characters really having it out with their inner-thoughts; Steiner who's having a "truth hurts" moment about thinking for himself and Garnet questioning her actions and working out what Zidane means to her ---- both character blame Zidane for their state of affairs though. :P  


3) = OMG, Beatrix joins the fight!  Her loyalties and resolve as strong as ever yet in a dramatic twist means going against the Queen she serves to save the Princess instead.  Fantastic!  The two head knights of Alexandria and a Dragoon from Burmecia saving the Princess is a great developmental trifecta for the three characters and suits them well.  This is a moment in a game that just makes you smile for the characters in it because you love them and the game builds up SO well to these 'changes of heart' and now they have this big moment for them to prove it.

It amazes me how much biased praise this poorly written game gets.

1) Except that the whole Sabin and Ultros thing from FF6 was a complete accident and  it actually went somewhere and didn't render the intire beginning of the game pointless AND Sabin didn't ABANDON his loved ones and almost get them killed because he selfishly cared more about his obviously psychotic mother, despite the whole reason for running away from home was because said person was aware of this fact, unlike FF9. This was not a cool adventure, it was painful and dragged out for an extremely obvious conclusion.

2) There really is no making light of this, I lost all sympathy for Garnet at this point, Zidane is the man that cared and loved her, and she abandons him and I already stated the gist of this bad plot above, the game acts like the love story is one of the main focuses when it really isn't, it's poorly written and frustrating, Garnet spends more wangsting over her crazy mom and kingdom rather than her and Zidane having any impact and chemistry on each other.
   Garnet played no important role in this subplot, they would have gotten the Supersoft with or without her "help", she actually made the situation WORSE, by dragging Marcus into the castle and getting captured, and he was lucky to not be immediately executed, and regardless none of this justifies the fact that Garnet's idiotic decision got many people killed and intire cities blown up and almost got Zidane and her friends KILLED. Honestly Blank wouldn't have been happen with Garnet (let's be honest, Blank was in no danger of dying) he would furious with her for abandoning his foster brother (hurting him deeply) and dooming him to getting killed in the warzone of the Burmecian Provence and making the whole reason Blank sacrificed himself in the first completely pointless.

3) I'm going to have to say no the "game did so well to build up these changes of heart" statement, it was poorly executed and developed, Beatrix spends that part of the game basically being a one-dimensional warmongerer constantly flaunting her own selfish ego and showing no hesitation or remorse at her actions (and don't get me started on how much of a god moder she is, she is far more powerful than she should be), until the game literally pulls out of it's behind that scene on the Red Rose with no lead in or build up at all. She didn't even show any concern at all for Garnet in any of the previous scenes until Zidane had to literally point her out to Beatrix (which apparently he was too stupid to bring it up at any point beforehand). This whole thing was just a really cliche and weaker version of Cecil's arc from FFIV which was done much better along with the ones in FFVI. That's one of IX biggest problems, when bringing together previous plots from the other FFs instead of trying to evolve and improve on them, they are seriously downplayed and made weaker than the originals and come off as poorly executed cheap repeats.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 12:48:13 AM by Jmariofan7 »

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Re: Dice Plays FFIX
« Reply #100 on: October 06, 2016, 03:07:21 AM »

1) Being honest though, even if I am fitting into my girlie stereotyping, I love a good shopping trip and I especially like a good love story (you'll see me pulling a stupid little smile whens something sweet happens).  The FF series has always been pretty good at separating romance with goals, but I agree things get simplified (for the worst) when love becomes the sole purpose or a strong character completely defrosts into a sap as soon as she's bit by a love bug.

2) http://youtu.be/SFyKLnOgOk0
Here's that FMV cutscene on Pulse with Lightning and Snow.... maybe this shouldn't have been a full CG scene, nothing really happens that a normal cutscene couldn't have done and FMV's might have more constraints than a normal in-game moment.  This pretty emotional event is packed into 2 minutes, Lightning gets angry for some reason and pulls a sword, and the usual hodgepodge of Japanese "we will meet again" dialogue is said for about a minute but without contributing anything interesting or different and basically serves to make you look at the pretty graphics.  If Lightning is fighting for her sister, it's barely convincing.

3) = Seeing Steiner think he was also under the sleeping potion that got the rest of the party's food makes me think he'd get "drunk" from non-alcoholic beer.  I'm sorry to keep making points about the guy, but I honestly think he's one of the best comic reliefs ever.


4)

= Garnet and Zidane, for reasons I'll totally get into later, DO make a really cute couple.  Besides the beautiful and tear-jerking finale of FFX, I'd go so far to say one scene of Garnet and Zidane demonstrate way better chemistry than most of Tidus and Yuna's interaction (*throws up the flame shield*)

= Fer real though, we need a Princess character that has a shitty singing voice and her song make the birds poop on her instead of flock to her.  It's a really, reaaallly tiresome trope.  
BUT, I do respect that at least Garnet isn't the typical "I WANT TO BE FREE" Princess, rather she wants to go home and wants to do good for her people.

5) = Another fantastic iteration of Cid joins us at...quite an interesting cost.  I love that he's an Oglop, and I love the 'shameful' circumstances that got him where he is.  It's somewhat surprising for what's usually a noble character that he'd cheat on his wife.  He still is noble, but I do like this moment of weakness for an important NPC, and in general, infidelity isn't often brought up in games.

6) I actually agree they make a much better couple than Tidus and Yuna. I'd go so far as to say I found the ending to FFIX more touching than the ending to FFX. I mean, they actually act like a couple. I don't think I remember once throughout FFX of Tidus and Yuna saying anything bad about the other, but Zidane and Garnet give each other shit all the time. Right up to the end with Garnet's love-taps for Zidane putting her through everything.


1) Oh great, one of THESE comments, so just because a person shows his/her soft side by letting someone in and being attached to them and actually having CHEMISTRY (especially for a love story that's supposed to be a main focus) they are automatically "weak and a sap", *sigh* I'm just going to say it, double standards galore, female characters are considered the sum of their flaws and every single thing they do will be measured against their moments of weakness. This is what I mean about the "qualifiers". Men are allowed to be rescued by their love interests once in a while - it just proves how much the girl really loves him and how awesome the man is for convincing the love interest to come after him. But if a woman is rescued even by someone that ISN'T her love interest, she is a weak helpless child that requires the protection of men. And then regardless of the storyline she's in, she is no longer a "strong female character" because once again, we're not judging her by the depth of her characterization, we're judging her by other factors. You can't call the girl a helpless damsel if she's punching tanks with her fists and despises even conversing with the opposite sex, let alone accepting even the smallest of aid. Of course, you've also written a weak character if that's literally the extent of her characterization.

2) I getting really sick of seeing this XIII bashing, say what you will about XIII, but it's flaws were nowhere as big, various and frustrating as IX's flaws.

3) Oh you mean one of the worst and idiotic moments in the intire FF series where Garnet basically betrays Zidane and her friends and renders the intire beginning of the game completely pointless? Yeah, I didn't find it really funny. Steiner was funny at first but it got old really fast, and his complete oblivious-ness to the evidence of the Queens intentions extended way past the point of tolerance (he could have at least SOME doubts or have the idea in his head).

4) That FMV scene on the balcony with Zidane and Garnet was completely pointless, it was supposed to be love and attachment, but the complete opposite happens afterwards, with more annoying banter and Garnet blowing Zidane off and ABANDONING him while he almost gets killed in Burmecia, yeah really great couple here, say what you will about Tidus and Yuna but at least THAT never happened.

5) That whole "Cid being an Oglop" thing just felt like a cheap plot device, how does being an Oglop affect your ability to design ships? And while it makes sense that Hilda would be angry, her taking the ONLY NON-MIST POWERED AIRSHIP which is really important, and basically ditching everyone is extremely selfish. Plus this whole thing really breaks the plot, if this Oglop spell cannot be removed by a Esuna spell or any potions and only the caster can remove it, why dosen't Hilda cast this same OP spell on Kuja or any of the other threats? It's a huge story breaker power.

6) Uh yeah, the thing with Tidus and Yuna is called ACTUAL CHEMISTRY, say what you will about them, but their love story had actual focus, impact and emotion, while with Garnet and Zidane, Garnet suffered from WAY too much angst (aka, wangst), while Zidane had too little angst, Garnet spend more time being emo about her crazy mother and kingdom.

To sum it up, here is a quote from someone called Rebochan: All right, I'll explain why I hate Garnet and don't get why people like her and hate Rinoa.
Rinoa:
"1) Starts out immature 2) Gets called out on it 3) After making a giant fuck up, learns from it and shapes up 4) Mostly risks her own life, though others have to fix her mess - something she remains aware of thereafter 5) Has the crappiest luck in the universe, but does not directly serve as the cause of any future problems
Garnet:
1) Runs away from home because she's afraid her mother is trying to kill her and take over the world 2) Risks the lives of many, many people and causes numerous deaths along her flight from the castle (yes, I count all those Black Mages on the ship as deaths) 3) Upon arrival in Lindblum suddenly proclaims that she refuses to believe her mother is evil and trying to take over the world, despite proof of her unprovoked attack on Burmecia, the slaughter of Black Mages, and the attempts to kill the kidnappers 4) Runs all the way home because apparently she wanted to just talk to her mom 5) Through her stupidity, she gets captured and tortured. Millions of people die from the results of her entirely preventable course of action.
That is why I hate Garnet.

I did like Rinoa's character better - she made sense, Garnet didn't. Not tough for me to say that. I also forgot to add that I hated that Garnet, after completely losing any sympathy I had for her, proceeded to hijack the plot of the game to the detriment of the rest of the cast who had better plots than her. It was criminal that I spent more time on Garnet's multiple crises of existence when Freya's plotline got booted to the side with what could be described as a twist tie of a resolution. That Vivi managed to actually get a good storyline in the middle of the Garnet blackhole is a small miracle. If I were Zidane, I would have been really upset with her after losing a close friend in the attempt to rescue her only for her to decide to blow me off and make the whole sacrifice meaningless."

Jmariofan7

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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #101 on: October 06, 2016, 03:17:33 AM »
[Zidane's happy-go-lucky facade finally demonstrates some deep-down problems that weigh on his character.  Too many games love shoe-horning these dramatic events and making them big affairs; but the light-hearted storytelling approach used in FF9 is surprisingly endearing and "in character" to the game itself.  It also functions well on two other levels: (1) It helps establish why The Tantalus are so tight and (well) "thick as thieves", they're a family, and it helps work the crew mates into the story on more than one occasion.  And (2) it brilliantly brings up events coming up since the past is going to come catching up to Zidane soon, and little does he know that it's going to be far from a loving reunion that he'd likely expect.]

I'm just going to quote socksmakepeoplesexy on this one: "And all of a sudden, the rug is pulled out from beneath the hero's feet as he is forced to confront his murky past and come to terms with the fact that he's not the person he thinks he is. This works great in Final Fantasy VII, since the entire game builds up to that one climactic moment from the very beginning. But in Final Fantasy IX, it's completely tacked-on, and only done because this is post-Final Fantasy VII and paying customers expect at least one terrible and momentous mindfuck of a revelation before the credits roll."

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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #102 on: October 06, 2016, 10:33:11 AM »
My review of FFIX:

FINAL FANTASY IX REVIEW

Final Fantasy IX for me, Storyline-wise is the worst game in the series, yes I said that (FYI, I liked XIII). The gameplay was decent, but that's not the problem here.

I'll explain the reason why the story didn't engage me, it's because it plays nothing like the previous FF games, has a story nothing like them and has characters nothing like them, yet is one of the most overrated games in the series (or just has a really loud vocal minority) and was stated by Hironobu Sakaguchi to be his "favourite FF game" and "represented everything FF should be" which I really don't buy (I'm not saying he has bad taste, but Creator's don't always have the best idea's in mind unless given the proper guidance, after all this is the same guy who us "The Spirits Within" and almost got Square bankrupt a second time, I'm comparing him as the George Lucas of gaming), the game suffers from really poor pacing and in regards to the Characters, excluding the main ones, they are really generic and underdeveloped, they are either obnoxious, steriotyped, or just completely become irrelevant as the game goes on (the only exception mostly is Vivi), they barely get any significant flashbacks or backstories (the most significant cases being Steiner, Eiko and Amarant).

Steiner's whole schtick got old real fast and he was just a stereotypical  Flanderization of previous knight characters such as FFVI's Cyan and Chrono Trigger's Frog/Glenn who were way more subtle. Steiner and Beatrix's whole relationship was really forced, they've never really had any real chemistry (especially in disk 1 and 2 where during the kidnapping they barely gave each other a second thought, and Beatrix didn't show much concern that Steiner was gone and during the fight with her in disk 2 she treats him like dirt and a traitor up until her spontaneous and forced heel face turn, but I'll get to that), he would have been better developed if he was the one that went with Freya to Burmecia and, you know, actually witness for himself the atrocities that the Queen was committing (who should have been Beatrix mind you) and actually have some interaction and relation to fellow Burmecian knight Freya (and since she actually knew Zidane a bit, she would try to make Steiner better understand Zidane), and when encountering Beatrix, have actual drama and conflict and delve into their relationship, instead of having to pull us through a really long and pointless subquest that had a extremely obvious conclusion and drag out his painfully oblivious, unlikable and obnoxious, clichè personality that nobody wanted.

Amarant barely had any significance at all and had a really generic and clichè (not to mention implausible) backstory, the writers weren't even trying to make him interesting "The Thief and his Princess" fanfic gave him a much better plot.
Eiko while wasn't nowhere near as annoying, never got a flashback, we never see her late Grandfather nor get an explaination of who he is. Heck, even her and Amarant's last names are really lazy as they are just the same word but with the a and o switched.

Freya I felt, was hijacking love story focus from Zidane/Garnet (although that's really only because of Garnet's stupidity and selfishness, and Zidane being somewhere he shouldn't be) and her storyline just gets booted to the side and never goes anywhere, we never find out why Fratley had amnesia and that love story pretty much gets shafted (honestly one of the game's biggest problems is it's poorly written love stories).

Beatrix, she just an annoying God Modder, she's far more powerful than she should be, and NEVER looses a fight (which is really annoying when one of the people fighting her is supposed to be the ANGEL OF DEATH, Zidane, the ultimate life form.) and is just a straight up Karma Houdini, she's basically a poorly written version of Cecil Harvey, with Cecil at the beginning of the game you were shown the conflict with him and the red wings with them debating if they should really do those actions, and when actually attacking Mysidia, actually showed hesitation and afterwards immediate remorse, there was actual build up, and unlike Beatrix, didn't act like a total jerk wad or brainwashed tool when doing it (I don't judge a person based solely on their actions but also largely on their attitude and motives, which is what I think all people should do), with Beatrix there is no build up, the scene on the Red Rose with her post-Cleyra I felt was a complete ass pull, then bam! Suddenly when your back in Alexandria, she's her jerkwad self again, then afterwards as this one person put it "through the span of three dialogue boxes, changes from a cold blooded war mongerer to a loyal companion"? Yeah, no, that's not how it works, it's really clichè. Plus as Garnet's "protector" she's really bad at it, she didn't show any concern when Garnet was shot down on the Prima Vista, nor did she question why Brahne wasn't sending her to "rescue" Garnet (which you would think she would try to do ASAP) but rather seemed more interested in waging war and instead sending murderous creatures after her that would do more harm than good and cause a lot of collateral damage, Beatrix didn't mention or ask about Garnet's safety or whereabouts when encountered in Burmecia, even though she should clearly be able to recognize some of the party as the people from Tantalas that "Kidnapped" Garnet. Only after Cleyra does she ask about Garnet, even though you think she would immediately return to Alexandria to check up on Garnet's welfare rather than be focusing on waging war with innocent Burmecians and Cleyrians, even back in Alexandria she didn't notice that Garnet was in the room until she was literally pointed out to Beatrix (after forcing you into a pointless battle that did nothing but flaunt her god mode status), not only that, but apparently she was amongst the people who didn't believe Garnet when she said her mom was going crazy and starting a war, even though Beatrix was clearly taking part in this and no doubt had briefings from Brahne on said subject, so she had to know that Garnet was on to something, all this makes it REALLY hard to sympathize with Beatrix, what would have been better is if she instead took the place of a certain other irratating character (Brahne).

Brahne, she has got to be one of the most generic, clichè and unrealistic characters in the FF series, not only is she embody the negative steriotype that ugly and/or overweight people are evil, but her motivation is extremely unrealistic, she is just "Greedy", I'm sorry, but that is not how real greed works, Final Fantasy Whatever's review pretty much summed it up best:
"Well, then I just exploded. Nooo, no, no. So do not be easy, she left behind a moral event horizon has already bombed when Claire robbed and ordered to chop off the head of Garnet. It is not greed, it is excessive and does not motivated violence, which is no excuse and can not be - and this pathetic attempt to beat the drop of compassion for this dolboslonihe looks shabby."

(I apologize for the bad English, this was originally Russian that I translated from Google Translate) Real Life dictators did not do the things they did because of simple greed, it had to do with screwed up philosophy and bad up bringing, none of this which Brahne had, as was described in the game Brahne had a really good and productive life and was kind, good ruler, the loss of her husband and biological daughter were recent things but not enough to turn you into a war mongering sociopath that wants to murder her family members and friends (and that has nothing to do with "greed"), especially when you still have your identical adoptive daughter, there is nothing Kuja could have said to have instigated that, she's just another Emperor Gestahl clone whose only purpose in the story is to serve as a generic one dimensional antagonist who you know is just going to get stabbed in the back and die, and after all she did, that is really unsatisfying. Plus we never really find out what she wanted with Alexander, yeah, she was collecting the jewels and everything but that was never explained, it was pretty much an aborted arc.

What should have happened, as stated above, was that Beatrix should have been the Queen and Garnet's adoptive mother (she used to be one of the Alexandrian Knights along with Steiner who had feelings for her, but later became Queen after marrying the King, Steiner of course still loved Beatrix, but still watched over as a knight, which is also explains why he was so overprotective of Garnet, she's the child of the woman he loves, so he sees her as a daughter, which makes it all the more tragic that the girl he thought was the princess was adopted, and the real Garnet he knew died all those years ago) and she would be a deconstruction of previous "Disk 1 Final Bosses" (Gestahl, P. Shinra and the galbadan President), the whole reason she was waging war is because she was convinced by Kuja that Alexander could bring back the dead, such as her husband and biological daughter and the desire to bring them back got the better of her, which lead to some actual interesting conflict between her and Steiner, and instead of getting killed off, she tries to make up and attone for what happened and gives up the throne to Dagger (and Zidane).

For Kuja, he is just an unintentionally Unsympathetic character, the game makes him out to be sympathetic when really he isn't, there's no build, no hesitation or remorse in his actions (he just spouts pointless poetry which just makes him more unsympathetic), up until the last minute, and it's really only for incredibly shallow reasons like finding out he was going die soon and made a desperate attempt at amends (speaking of that, that made no sense, why the heck did Kuja think he was immortal? It was stated in the Ultimania's that he was just a regular Genome that accidentally got a soul, there was no reason for him to think he was immortal.), the writers even pulled a random entity out of nowhere (Necron) to try and make his incredibly forced heel face turn more credible, Necron was really just a cheap out of nowhere excuse for Kuja to "redeem himself", the "symbolism" was just an excuse to try and justify his appearance. Plus his whole hunt for the Eidolons (which took up roughly 70% of the game) was completely pointless as he could have simply read some books and did research on Trance, and focused on achieving a power that was even greater than the most powerful Eidolon, Alexander, from the start, instead of wasting most of the game on the Eidolons

The most interesting parts, such as Garland, the Genomes, Terra and Zidane being an Angel of Death were all thrown so forcefully into the plot, and then gets immediately wasted by more of Kuja's nonsense. Garland had to play second fiddle to Kuja and Brahne, a pair of far more typical and uninteresting characters. There is also the major plot hole of why does even need an Angel of Death for his plans, when he can just use the Invincible, (the warship that not even the most powerful Eidolon Alexander could stand up to) to nuke every city on Gaia to speed things up faster.

The black mages I felt could have been way more interesting had they actually went into the fact that they were made from the mist (the expelled souls of Gaia), dosen't that mean that the black mages are dead people brought back to life in artificial bodies? What about the mist monsters, are they like the fiends and unsent from FFX, are they spirits transformed into monsters? What happens when they get used as fuel for machinery, is it like the mako reactors from VII? It feels like a waste of a creative idea.

The Summoner Tribe, I felt, compared to the Cetra Tribe from FFVII, was really underwhelming, their only purpose in the story was to be a random tribe that was nearly wiped out and served as nothing more as quick backstory exposition for Garnet and Eiko, yet got really overhyped, when the game starts you're given Garnet's dream sequence which involved Garnet/Sarah's biological mother, which leads you to believe that will be one of the major plot points, but as stated above, gets shafted and serves as nothing more than cheap backstory exposition. With the Cetra from FFVII, they've always had a presence throughout the story, almost all of the major plot elements could be traced back to them, they actually had impact and importance to the plot, while the summoners in IX just feel like poorly written and undeveloped copies of them.

And finally to Zidane and Garnet.

To sum up Zidane, here is how a meta critic reviewer put it:
"The game's supposed protagonist run around observing events but really doing nothing to change them while the plot becomes increasingly obtuse and contorted. It is a failure in storytelling on virtually every level."

Basically, he's a useless protagonist, you can take him out and the exact same events will happen regardless, in almost every significant cutscene he just stands around like an idiot and dosen't even try to do something or make an impact (despite in battle being able to cause massive explosions in trance and has "Grand Lethal"), he's supposed to be the Angel of Death, Garland's ultimate creation, basically the Shadow the Hedgehog/Mewtwo of Final Fantasy IX, yet he never beats Beatrix (a regular human) dosen't have any big impact on major events, he didn't even completely defeat Kuja, his brother whom Zidane is supposed to be supperior to, even the revelation is underwhelming, this kind of thing worked great in FFVII because the intire game built up to that one climatic moment and had lot's of payoff, but here, it's completely tacked on and forced and then gets dropped almost as soon as it's revealed, Garland literally rips out his soul (yet somehow gets it back later for no explained reason, since, you know, Garland was the one who supposedly had it.) and this just leads to a really clichè power of friendship scenario, and ultimately had no major effect on the plot.

With Garnet, she has got to be one of the most obnoxious, horribly written characters in the Final Fantasy series, to put things simply she started off as a intelligent and interesting likeable character, but post kidnapping she devolves into a extremely clichè naïve princess sterotype, who cares more about her pschotic murderous mother than Zidane or her friends, to the point where she perfectly willing to ABANDON them and risk their lives, which renders the intire beginning of the game completely pointless, the next few hours a waste of time, caused the devastation of intire cities and seriously messed up Zidane and Garnet's love story a bit (and to make matters worse, she NEVER gets called out on it).

But with Zidane and Garnet together, their love story is the worst written one in the series,they barely have any chemistry, Garnet spends more time wangsting over her crazy mom and kingdom than caring about Zidane, and there's the whole ABANDONING him thing which really damages things, say what you want about Squall and Rinora but at least they stood by each other's side and didn't abandon one another and they actually had focus. One of the most irritating things about IX is that it likes to pretend Zidane and Garnet's love story is one of the main focuses when it really isn't, the main theme is a love song (Melodies of Life) which plays constantly throughout the game (not just the credits) and even serves as the world map theme (until disk 4 anyway) and just listen to how the lyrics make it out to be, just look at some of the advertising, a lot of the tv ads have the song playing and a majority of the scenes shown are Zidane and Garnet (which probably makes up a majority of the amount of focus it actually gets in the game), here's some of them:m.youtube.com/watch?v=LZFxLj2s…
m.youtube.com/watch?v=bdqxhny4…

Does this seem like false advertising to you?
Plus the game had that whole "Book Ending" thing with the "I want to be your Canary" play, in regards to the play I was really disappointed with how it was executed, I honestly thought the play was going to serve as forshadowing for the intire game (like how in VIII, the song sung at the beginning forshadowed the events of the game), such as that scene in where Marcus Inadvertently stabs Cornelia, I thought that would really happen later with Zidane and Garnet, but the only thing from the play that even remotely connects with the anything is the whole Zidane/Garnet thing (very loosely I might add as Marcus and Cornelia showed way more chemistry for each other than Zidane and Garnet did.)

Overview: The gameplay is good (except for trance), but in terms of storyline, it relies way too much on rehashing plots from previous Final Fantasy's but rather than trying to improve and evolve on them and mix and match them, they are all pretty much downplayed and not as well written as the originals, FF9's story, it's a mess pure and and simple, what makes it worse is that it was made by the point that in RPGs the story was just as important as the gameplay, especially after VII, and if the storyline isn't up to good standards, than all the gameplay and dungeon crawling is unsatisfying, hollow and feels like a huge waste.

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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #103 on: October 06, 2016, 10:45:03 AM »
You've made your point - you don't like this game.  And you've done so by being rude to somebody else, which is not the way we like people to do things around here.

You're not off to a good start with your first four posts.  Shape up, or they can be basically your only four posts.
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Re: *DONE* Dice Plays FFIX (1st post w/ Table of Contents & Plot Summaries!)
« Reply #104 on: October 06, 2016, 11:31:51 AM »
Hello friend!  I wanna say thanks for reading so much, I thought the thread was pretty dead by now, but it's great to see it still gets some readers. :)

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on a  few points, buuuutt I think I can pull a few quotes.

I'm just going to quote socksmakepeoplesexy on this one: "And all of a sudden, the rug is pulled out from beneath the hero's feet as he is forced to confront his murky past and come to terms with the fact that he's not the person he thinks he is. This works great in Final Fantasy VII, since the entire game builds up to that one climactic moment from the very beginning. But in Final Fantasy IX, it's completely tacked-on, and only done because this is post-Final Fantasy VII and paying customers expect at least one terrible and momentous mindfuck of a revelation before the credits roll."

I'm just going with the punches of the story.  I feel like Zidane's spotlight comes waaaay too coincidentally and way too contrived to feel real.  But, alas, I do like how the game does give Zidane some backstory.  I don't really care for how the Terra bit fits into the game's plot, and FF9 sets it up as an almost "big bad" only for the older/real villain to take the reigns in the finale.  It's not my favorite, but I do like the story as it unfolds and the drama between the characters to be pretty fulfilling (some more than others).  Like a "Tales of" game, I'm less sold on the overall plot of FF9 than I am by it's charming settings and big motley crew cast of lovable weirdos.

--

I think the plot of FF9 was meant to call back elements of previous games and it intentionally "feels familiar".  So I can't say I agree with the overall tone and scope of the plot.  I do have issues with it, which I do mention, but I'm honestly less convinced games can *often* have good plots.  I feel there's standouts, and I feel game plots can be good game plots, but a lot of them do contain contrived or grandiose elements to usually turn things into a "save the world" affair. 

That said, I loved playing FF9's story, elements felt especially human when the fantasy elements were put aside.  Garnet trying to save her mother despite the things she's done is because betraying family isn't a plot thread that SHOULD come easily.  Another issue I have with RPGs is when they DO often focus on tragic sob story pasts; everyone has to be damaged to be interesting and experience some sort of catharsis/revelation during their journey.  But a character like Eiko or Vivi are simply too young to have much of a "tragic backstory" (Vivi gets his somewhat spelled out for us at Quan's Dwelling which I thought was pretty cool).  Steiner indeed questioned his loyalties, it took some time (he IS loyal after all!), but he came around.  Freya admittedly gets a bit shafted as soon as the Cleyra bit is over (and her love story ends on a bittersweet note, so I don't understand what you mean by "hijacking" Garnet/Zidane), but Amarant doesn't really strike me as a man who would talk or get sad about a tragic past even if he had one —— his development in game (to "play along" and become a friend) is just the right amount of development (and cheese) for a character of his type.

I don't doubt you like FF13, and I like FF13 (just probably not as much as you).  But hey, some people reeeaaallly like FF7, some people reeeaaallly like FF6, and some people reeeaaallly like FF10.  You can't win them all, and I don't see why you keep bringing up 13.  FF games are sort of unique in that each game really seems to have its subsets of fans, but, to some extent, I find the games pretty hard to compare to each other because their tone, atmosphere, gameplay (especially in the PSX era and on) have been wildly different.  Beyond broad strokes, I usually don't like comparing titles since they seem to have different goals.

The nitpicking on Beatrix is odd.  I mean, how the hell can our party take on dragons and giant beasts?  Why couldn't we just kill Golbez in FF4, because we didn't "level up" enough?  I DUNNO!  So I'm afraid I have to respectfully ignore that point as something FF games and RPGs love bringing in some overpowered character.

Quote
What should have happened, as stated above, was that Beatrix should have been the Queen and Garnet's adoptive mother (she used to be one of the Alexandrian Knights along with Steiner who had feelings for her, but later became Queen after marrying the King, Steiner of course still loved Beatrix, but still watched over as a knight, which is also explains why he was so overprotective of Garnet, she's the child of the woman he loves, so he sees her as a daughter, which makes it all the more tragic that the girl he thought was the princess was adopted, and the real Garnet he knew died all those years ago) and she would be a deconstruction of previous "Disk 1 Final Bosses" (Gestahl, P. Shinra and the galbadan President), the whole reason she was waging war is because she was convinced by Kuja that Alexander could bring back the dead, such as her husband and biological daughter and the desire to bring them back got the better of her, which lead to some actual interesting conflict between her and Steiner, and instead of getting killed off, she tries to make up and attone for what happened and gives up the throne to Dagger (and Zidane).

For Kuja, he is just an unintentionally Unsympathetic character, the game makes him out to be sympathetic when really he isn't, there's no build, no hesitation or remorse in his actions (he just spouts pointless poetry which just makes him more unsympathetic), up until the last minute, and it's really only for incredibly shallow reasons like finding out he was going die soon and made a desperate attempt at amends (speaking of that, that made no sense, why the heck did Kuja think he was immortal? It was stated in the Ultimania's that he was just a regular Genome that accidentally got a soul, there was no reason for him to think he was immortal.), the writers even pulled a random entity out of nowhere (Necron) to try and make his incredibly forced heel face turn more credible, Necron was really just a cheap out of nowhere excuse for Kuja to "redeem himself", the "symbolism" was just an excuse to try and justify his appearance. Plus his whole hunt for the Eidolons (which took up roughly 70% of the game) was completely pointless as he could have simply read some books and did research on Trance, and focused on achieving a power that was even greater than the most powerful Eidolon, Alexander, from the start, instead of wasting most of the game on the Eidolons

woahwoahwoah whaaat?  I mean, parts of this are okay, but that's a LOT of new plot for a game that never would have hinted at this otherwise.  You literally derailed the plot that's there and I think you're putting way too much stock in this.  As for Kuja, the only way I "defend" him is because....hearing you're about to die probably makes you feel like complete shit; problem is Kuja is insane and insanely powerful and retaliated.  I didn't really feel much as a villain except for that moment where his death became inevitable and he couldn't stop it despite his newfound power.

Also, I'm happy to get into games I like, but I'm not really good with imagining hypothetical scenarios that didn't happen in the game.  Not my style.

Also also, I think Yuna and Tidus lost a bit of their magic with X-2 and X-2.5

I'm sure there's a lot more i can say, but I'm out of time today and the wall of text is making me go cross eyed.  But thanks for reading!

« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 03:00:00 PM by Dice »
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