Author Topic: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread

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Andrew

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Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2015, 08:24:15 PM »
I played #1 in... 2010ish on PSP for the first time and really enjoyed it. #2 I could never get into.



Rucks

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Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2015, 11:01:05 PM »
*checks thread, sees FF12 hate, is overjoyed* All I can really add at this point is that as far as I am concerned, it is the worst FF game. Damn single player MMO.


Being in the middle of a recent playthrough I'd actually argue FF6 - US SNES Version is a better contender. Typos everywhere, horrid localization (which translates to terribly laughable character moments), rancid monster design (starting from about the Esper Cave onwards every enemy has some sort of 'gimmick' that makes them far harder than they need to be to kill), the FLOATING ISLAND ZONE HOLY HELL, Esper Magic grinding is worse than even FF8's drawing, I don't even want to imagine leveling up in this game without 'Fast Forward' mode (spent 3+ real time hours with mostly fast forward down getting 5 party members into the 70's; and because of Kefka's tower I need at least 12)...ect, ect.

FF12 put me to sleep. FF6 is stealing my kidneys after drugging me.

Honestly I believe anyone who speaks highly of 'this' version hasn't played it since they were a kid. >.<

As a side note, funnily enough Terra is just as bad as Vaan in the 'contributes nothing to the main plot' yet no one ever mentions this. The Returners would be doing their thing without her and eventually Locke would've run into Celes, giving movement to the rest of the plot. Literally the only thing Terra contributes that any other party member wouldn't have done is open the Esper Door. But according to the plot they were 'just sitting there waiting' anyway. So as soon as something opened the door the empire razing flame fest was going to happen regardless. Delete Terra, give Celes most of her role; plot goes unchanged.

This would make sense if Kefka wasn't in the top 2 or 3 for greatest villains in the history of RPG's.  And the reason no one mentions Terra being a terrible protagonist is because A) she shares the lead with Celes and Locke (as mentioned above) and B) she isn't terrible at all.  Her backstory is gutwrenching,


MeshGearFox

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Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2015, 12:00:28 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsjzcT1QKYs

i'm late on the party but revelant????
o/` I do not feel joy o/`
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Aeolus

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Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2015, 01:48:39 AM »
As a side note, funnily enough Terra is just as bad as Vaan in the 'contributes nothing to the main plot' yet no one ever mentions this.

In all honesty, I probably should've picked a better example like FFVI. That game, while ostentatiously granting Terra the role of MC (for the ending credits and everything thereafter), didn't really grant it to her alone but also Celes and Locke, both of whom took control of the plot at certain points. Granted, Terra was more a demonstration on what would happen if the mysterious waif female lead was actually the MC for once instead of just another damsel in distress, but she still got distressed on more than one occasion and had to leave the party for a goodly chunk of the first half and was wholly optional for the second. Vaan at least, never had to leave the party (no matter how much we'd rather have Fran or Ashe as the party leader in cities and villages).

Though on that note, Cloud also left the party for a brief stretch, leaving Cid (and Tifa I guess) to pilot the party for a while, but that's closer to a brief reprieve compared to Terra's absence, especially since getting him back in your party was plot mandatory (compared to Terra's "I must go now for the ending sequence needs me.").

You were saying?


Imma let you finish, but Warrior of Light is the most story irrelevant FF character ever.

Who the hell plays a team with a Warrior in it? Its 4 White Mages all the way (to White Wizards).


Admittedly I'm guilty of not playing the original two. I had the FF Origins disk in High School but really just couldn't get into either. Maybe I should at least give the first one a go someday. I hear 2's just pretty much abusing the stat system for an hour then making cake of the rest of the experience.

Biggest mistake you can make with FF2 is grinding your HP up. Late game and onward, undead enemies start showing up in droves and their attacks always drain health based upon a 1/16th percentage of your total health per Hit (and this is on the old NES style Hits based system where higher speed means more Hits per attack), and between that and the fact that Cure Magic have a hard time healing more than 1500 HP per cast at level 13-ish, which itself is probably the highest level you can expect your Cure Magic to reach by the Final Boss Fight with some grinding, you really can't have your characters keep up with that kind of damage (especially since Level 13 magic costs 13 MP per cast, its not particularly economical to go around burning MP when fighting 6 or 8 undead enemies throwing out 1000s of HP of damage per individual undead enemy's attack).

What you should do is focus on having your designated Tank be the only one in the front row, and have him/her dual wield Shields or a Shield and a Dagger or something that boosts Agility, because Evade is what you want since it cuts down on the number of Hits per attack that connect. Give your other two characters either a Bow or make them your designated Black Magic user, and make sure the Tank gets Blink cast on him/her a lot.
In my vision, I see that one of us is going to KO the other.

Andrew

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Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2015, 01:52:37 AM »
Imma let you finish, but Warrior of Light is the most story irrelevant FF character ever.

Who the hell plays a team with a Warrior in it? Its 4 White Mages all the way (to White Wizards).

Not just story irrelevant, but also gameplay irrelevant. Poor guy.



ZeronHitaro

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Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2015, 08:14:35 AM »

This would make sense if Kefka wasn't in the top 2 or 3 for greatest villains in the history of RPG's.  And the reason no one mentions Terra being a terrible protagonist is because A) she shares the lead with Celes and Locke (as mentioned above) and B) she isn't terrible at all.  Her backstory is gutwrenching,

Personally I'm leaning towards no on both points.

Terra's backstory is generic and honestly rather plain. Replace 'Esper' with 'Elf' and you'll see what I mean. 'Humans and Elves can never co exist...oh look, a half-elf! Shock! Gasp! Magical shenanigans!' And then after that literally all her dialog is "I wanna know what love is NAAAAAAOOOOOWWWWW~!" If it was your first experience with the trope then sure, you're more than allowed to see it as memorable because everyone always adores their first Batman, Doctor, ect. Regardless of flaws in the presentation. But stock fantasy 101 is still stock fantasy 101.

And Kefka...eh. Upon the replay he really isn't leaving much of an impression on me as he did as a kid. Up until the floating island he's not a villain. He's a mook. No different from any other psychotic henchman archetype out there. What really makes him unique? The laughing? The fact that every NPC rags on him? His ineffectiveness at doing anything on his own? (The poisoning of Doma was only possible through Leo's cornering of their forces, village razing was the Emperor's orders, and the Esper-capturing was probably the Emperor's gift too; every other thing he is around for is committed by other Empire forces with him just watching.) Let's just get the central comparison out of the way. He's the Joker without any of the charm. He doesn't even have Golbez or Ex-Death's credits of having memorable pre-battles. You just sneeze and he falls over. As a player/reader I really don't care about him because at the end of the day he's not pulling the strings, the Emperor is. Screw Kefka, kill 'that' guy. (Pre-World of Ruin.)

And the only, only reason he becomes the primary antagonist in the World of Ruin is because of plot idiocy. Somehow the Emperor who knows about the ancient statues of magical power, can forge legions of Magi-Tek forces, and has been researching Espers and their lore for decades didn't know about the anti-magic field? Ballocks. Leo and Geshtal die in one blow but Kefka can talk a sword stab through the gut and live? Ballocks. Shadow can physically pin Kefka in between three massive statues but can't shiv him when he's in there? Balllllllooooocks.

I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded after consuming so many different stories. Maybe having to analyze the crap out of plot day in and day out keeps me from enjoying the basics. But Kefka...I just don't see it anymore.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 08:16:23 AM by ZeronHitaro »

Aeolus

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Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2015, 12:30:57 PM »
All right, I'll bite.

Yes, Kefka was a henchman who elevated himself into the game's primary antagonist. Considering how often that actually occurs in JRPGs both then and now, its still a noteworthy feat. As for Gestahl's ignorance of the magic-field? That's mostly due to the fact that most of his experience with magic came from the research done on Magi-tek, whereas Kefka by this point had already figured out how Magicite worked and applied that knowledge to the Warring Triad statues.

That said, yeah. The whole Statues thing kinda comes out of nowhere and isn't really all that well explained past the Crescent Island expedition which does lay down the basic groundwork of the Statues and their purpose and role within the War of the Magi, but not about purposefully placing oneself into said Balance in order to partake in and absorb their magic field. Then again, it seems like something that very few would be crazy enough to even attempt, given the possible ramifications of disrupting the balance (of course Kefka certainly fits that bill; and look what happened, a large quantity of magical energy spilled over and caused a chain reaction that shattered continents and rearranged the face of the world).

As for Kefka getting stabbed during the Floating Continent sequence? First off, we don't even know the extent of the blow he took given that we're at most looking at a pair of sprites bump each other with visual and audio effects supporting the thesis that he was stabbed. He could've been stabbed in the shoulder for all we know (admittedly we do know that it had to be somewhere he could see since he does observe the blood flowing from his wound, but that's the full extent of it). Second, Shadow's efforts to pin Kefka were more or less for the sake of giving the party time to escape as the Floating Continent was the first thing to start falling apart (being suspended in the air and all) and the last thing they needed was Kefka going on a rampage and blasting the ground out from underneath the party (after all, theoretically speaking, the player could've brought Sabin, Gau and Terra to the fight, but they could've just as easily brought a party of Strago, Relm and Mog, none of whom are really capable of making any sort of dramatic escape, nevermind that the party at this point will always be saddled with Celes, who isn't exactly known for performing super human feats of agility). So yeah, leaving a goddamn Ninja behind to cover your tails isn't the worst idea the party's ever had. As for why Shadow couldn't have just shiv'd Kefka? Considering the luck Gestahl had at nuking him and getting Light of Judgemented in return, its possible that Shadow just couldn't deal enough HP worth of damage with the equipment at his disposal. Especially considering that each of the Warring Triad itself a major endgame boss fight, soloing all four at once would've been an impossible task. (I mean, not even a full party can deal with the Guardian let alone a guy who hasn't seen much action throughout the World of Balance, and that's just one endgame boss). Honestly, my biggest problem with the scene is Kefka waiting for the party to show up before torching Gestahl and triggering the world altering cataclysm (although I suppose that's largely due to trying to get Celes to actively betray the party for dramatic effect).

As for the issue with Terra? See my previous post. The only reason why she's considered the main character is largely due to the game opening and ending with her and the fact that her role in the story was the focus for about half of the game. I generally consider her performance/prerogative within the game's plot to be shared with Celes as they essentially are the same character (I mean they don't really share any screentime or availability together until Terra's recruitment within the World of Ruin where all bets are off; excepting the Battle of Narshe, less than a handful of scenes during the Imperial Dinner/Crescent Island bit and maybe the Floating Continent if, and only if, you brought Terra along). And in all honesty, Terra being separate from Celes is more of a good thing than a bad thing. For one, had they been the same character outright, then Locke would've stealth protagonist'd all up in this shit due to Celes' character development revolving largely around him to the extent of him being her entire driving force. Terra doesn't have that relationship (getting paired off with Leo) and basically treats him like the optional character that he turns into during the World of Ruin. For another, its honestly the better choice to not pile conflicting character defining traits onto a single character. Terra was a mysterious waif while Celes was the one with a reputation to live down, and though the developers tried to put it all on one character (Terra's 50 soldier per minute killcount is the furthest they go with it until her Esper Berserker Rage episode then both are largely dropped for Celes' torching of Miranda and mislaid allegiances).
In my vision, I see that one of us is going to KO the other.

ZeronHitaro

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Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2015, 02:51:22 PM »
Seems fair enough to me to refrain from further nitpicking. As an aside I'd rather assumed from the dialog that Kefka wasn't so much 'planning' on killing the Emperor so much as it just sorta happened. Mostly because Celes stabbing him pissed him off and Kefka's whims change with his emotional state. So if Celes had either killed the party or just plain not showed up Kefka would still be a lapdog.

Aeolus

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Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2015, 03:58:55 PM »
Seems fair enough to me to refrain from further nitpicking. As an aside I'd rather assumed from the dialog that Kefka wasn't so much 'planning' on killing the Emperor so much as it just sorta happened. Mostly because Celes stabbing him pissed him off and Kefka's whims change with his emotional state. So if Celes had either killed the party or just plain not showed up Kefka would still be a lapdog.

Nah. I think he always had it out for Gestahl, especially by that point, but couldn't move against him without eating a Fire 3 or a Melton to the face until he stealth magic zone'd his ass. Celes' cutting of a bitch, more or less just pushed him to push some statues because he has semi-omnipotent, nearly-cosmic powers now and screw you all for making him bleed. Not that he probably wouldn't have had the world burn before him, but he probably wouldn't have risked going so far as to break the Balance and the world in the process.
In my vision, I see that one of us is going to KO the other.

MeshGearFox

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Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2015, 08:20:27 PM »
My favorite part of FFVI was when it glitched out and blitzes quit working.
o/` I do not feel joy o/`
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Alisha

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Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2015, 12:30:37 PM »
this isnt real but the FF14 team sometimes does funny parodies like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yZXjxuoEGA

now i kinda wish it was real.

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timmyFd

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Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2015, 01:37:43 AM »
Seems fair enough to me to refrain from further nitpicking. As an aside I'd rather assumed from the dialog that Kefka wasn't so much 'planning' on killing the Emperor so much as it just sorta happened. Mostly because Celes stabbing him pissed him off and Kefka's whims change with his emotional state. So if Celes had either killed the party or just plain not showed up Kefka would still be a lapdog.

I dunno if I'd have said he was planning it but I would say I saw it coming from quite a way off. It kinda fit his general character arc. You could tell from just the focus and framing of it that he was the main bad guy from quite early on. Either that, or the emperor would've had to seriously increase in badassery later on.

ZeronHitaro

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Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread
« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2015, 04:58:00 PM »
Seems fair enough to me to refrain from further nitpicking. As an aside I'd rather assumed from the dialog that Kefka wasn't so much 'planning' on killing the Emperor so much as it just sorta happened. Mostly because Celes stabbing him pissed him off and Kefka's whims change with his emotional state. So if Celes had either killed the party or just plain not showed up Kefka would still be a lapdog.

I dunno if I'd have said he was planning it but I would say I saw it coming from quite a way off. It kinda fit his general character arc. You could tell from just the focus and framing of it that he was the main bad guy from quite early on. Either that, or the emperor would've had to seriously increase in badassery later on.

On this particular run through I actually considered him to 'have' taken that level of the fact that he made Kefka forcibly sit in jail. Probably without explaining 'why' because you know Kefka wouldn't have kept it quiet while stewing in his cell.

To go back to my earlier comparison just apply a Joker analogue to it. If someone from the Batman world, walked up to the Joker, and simply told him without any reasoning "Hey! You! In jail, now!" and the Joker actually did just that... I'd give them a +level.

timmyFd

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Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2015, 05:50:48 PM »

On this particular run through I actually considered him to 'have' taken that level of the fact that he made Kefka forcibly sit in jail. Probably without explaining 'why' because you know Kefka wouldn't have kept it quiet while stewing in his cell.

To go back to my earlier comparison just apply a Joker analogue to it. If someone from the Batman world, walked up to the Joker, and simply told him without any reasoning "Hey! You! In jail, now!" and the Joker actually did just that... I'd give them a +level.

Wasn't that part of a further plan somehow when he did that? I don't remember the scene. You might actually be right.
The problem is, I already knew Kefka was the main bad guy before I played the game so I could've just been operating a bit of a confirmation bias on it.

ZeronHitaro

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Re: The Final General Fantasy Discussion Thread
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2015, 05:59:15 PM »

On this particular run through I actually considered him to 'have' taken that level of the fact that he made Kefka forcibly sit in jail. Probably without explaining 'why' because you know Kefka wouldn't have kept it quiet while stewing in his cell.

To go back to my earlier comparison just apply a Joker analogue to it. If someone from the Batman world, walked up to the Joker, and simply told him without any reasoning "Hey! You! In jail, now!" and the Joker actually did just that... I'd give them a +level.

Wasn't that part of a further plan somehow when he did that? I don't remember the scene. You might actually be right.
The problem is, I already knew Kefka was the main bad guy before I played the game so I could've just been operating a bit of a confirmation bias on it.

Going to jail was further part of the Emperor's plan, but they never explain outright if Kefka was informed or not. I always assumed not just from the particular temper tantrum he has in his cell if you sacrifice a perfect banquet run to go spy on him. Doubly so considering he's doing this without even knowing he's being watched.