Author Topic: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread

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Lian_Kazairl

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Re: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread
« Reply #585 on: September 07, 2016, 11:37:20 AM »
Well, my point was less about comparing Destiny to Fallout or the other games, and more to say that I disagree that FPS mechanics automatically disqualify a game from being an RPG.

You can play Fallout in third-person (though I don't know why you would want to), and yes stats are important, but in terms of what you are mechanically doing when you're in combat, it can function as an FPS. Give or take a little, depending on how much you rely on VATS. Same thing for Deus Ex; actually, even more so than Fallout because you have no stats. And stats have become pretty much meaningless in Mass Effect. All you're really doing there is picking powers; the gameplay in combat is pretty much pure TPS.

And Destiny is almost exactly like Borderlands except it has a bare bones story and almost no memorable characters or personality. You still run around shooting things and doing quests for experience, either solo or with other people. You still level up and select skills based on your class, including several variations on an ultimate depending on what sub-class you choose. You still pick up weapons and equipment that have stats and interesting abilities (that you can also level up using loot or drops), and your equipment affects your secondary stats. You still deal damage to enemies in hit points based on your equipment. Etc.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 11:39:11 AM by Lian_Kazairl »

IhaveFURY

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Re: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread
« Reply #586 on: September 07, 2016, 11:40:21 AM »
^ When I played Destiny, I absolutely felt like I was playing a boring and pretentious version of Borderlands.


That about sums it up. :-P

Building on the conversation, however, this is where coverage for games on RPGFan gets tricky. We cover Zelda, but Zelda-likes such as Okami and the first Darksiders are out- yet we covered 3D Dot Game Heroes and Darksiders 2, the latter since it had character levels and a Diablo-esque loot system. The boundaries of genre are pretty fast and loose as it is, so really, our only metric for inclusion is "has RPGFan covered something similar in the past" and "is this significant enough to warrant inclusion?"

Case in point, we have an E3 preview of Horizon: Zero Dawn.

Arvis

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Re: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread
« Reply #587 on: September 07, 2016, 12:26:04 PM »
Fallout ... can function as an FPS.

You make good and sound points, as always, but I don't know if we'll ever agree on the above quoted point.  Fallout is an RPG with an interface taken from the FPS genre.  But... it really doesn't function as an FPS at all.  In an FPS, you point and shoot and that's it.  The results depend on the player's aim and reflexes.  In Fallout, you point and shoot, but everything that happens after that is dependent on behind-the-scenes dice rolls, the way every RPG should.  Success is more dependent on the character's stats/abilities, rather than the player's.  It's two completely different gameplay experiences, just using the same interface.

If a Halo fan comes to it and treats it like an FPS, they will die constantly.  Because it's not an FPS and it doesn't work as an FPS.

Of course, my opinion is exclusively coming from Fallout 3.  Fallout 4, which I have never played, may have changed from RPG to shooter, the way Mass Effect did from ME1 up to 3.  ME1 was pretty much strictly an RPG.  From what I understand of 2 and 3, they basically changed the genre, making it effectively a TPS with RPG elements.  In my book, having "RPG elements" does not qualify a game as an RPG by itself.


On the topic of Zelda (which isn't an RPG), there's no objective/logical reason for covering it and not covering Okami (or any other Zelda-like).  Period.  However, considering the nature of RPGFan, if the reasoning is "We want to do it this way", then that's completely legitimate and anyone who doesn't like it doesn't have to come to the site. :P
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Aeolus

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Re: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread
« Reply #588 on: September 07, 2016, 12:37:25 PM »
Fallout ... can function as an FPS.

You make good and sound points, as always, but I don't know if we'll ever agree on the above quoted point.  Fallout is an RPG with an interface taken from the FPS genre.  But... it really doesn't function as an FPS at all.  In an FPS, you point and shoot and that's it.  The results depend on the player's aim and reflexes.  In Fallout, you point and shoot, but everything that happens after that is dependent on behind-the-scenes dice rolls, the way every RPG should.  Success is more dependent on the character's stats/abilities, rather than the player's.  It's two completely different gameplay experiences, just using the same interface.

If a Halo fan comes to it and treats it like an FPS, they will die constantly.  Because it's not an FPS and it doesn't work as an FPS.

Of course, my opinion is exclusively coming from Fallout 3.  Fallout 4, which I have never played, may have changed from RPG to shooter, the way Mass Effect did from ME1 up to 3.  ME1 was pretty much strictly an RPG.  From what I understand of 2 and 3, they basically changed the genre, making it effectively a TPS with RPG elements.  In my book, having "RPG elements" does not qualify a game as an RPG by itself.


On the topic of Zelda (which isn't an RPG), there's no objective/logical reason for covering it and not covering Okami (or any other Zelda-like).  Period.  However, considering the nature of RPGFan, if the reasoning is "We want to do it this way", then that's completely legitimate and anyone who doesn't like it doesn't have to come to the site. :P

The problem with Zelda is that Zelda 2 exists (and it looks like BotW will be right up there as well). While heavily skill dependent, AoL has honest to god stats and ability progression. What also muddies the waters are the 2D Zeldas as ability progression is far more pronounced in them than in the 3D Zeldas (in that they actually have some; because seriously, OoT has almost no ability progression whatsoever beyond the timeskip changes, and other ones typically tie it towards either getting and/or powering up the Master Sword, which is strictly plot based like in OoT).
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Lian_Kazairl

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Re: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread
« Reply #589 on: September 07, 2016, 12:57:55 PM »
Fallout ... can function as an FPS.

You make good and sound points, as always, but I don't know if we'll ever agree on the above quoted point.  Fallout is an RPG with an interface taken from the FPS genre.  But... it really doesn't function as an FPS at all.  In an FPS, you point and shoot and that's it.  The results depend on the player's aim and reflexes.  In Fallout, you point and shoot, but everything that happens after that is dependent on behind-the-scenes dice rolls, the way every RPG should.  Success is more dependent on the character's stats/abilities, rather than the player's.  It's two completely different gameplay experiences, just using the same interface.

If a Halo fan comes to it and treats it like an FPS, they will die constantly.  Because it's not an FPS and it doesn't work as an FPS.

Of course, my opinion is exclusively coming from Fallout 3.  Fallout 4, which I have never played, may have changed from RPG to shooter, the way Mass Effect did from ME1 up to 3.  ME1 was pretty much strictly an RPG.  From what I understand of 2 and 3, they basically changed the genre, making it effectively a TPS with RPG elements.  In my book, having "RPG elements" does not qualify a game as an RPG by itself.

I'll agree that Fallout 3 was harder to play as an FPS. It's not perfect in Fallout 4 either (I still find myself relying on VATS a fair amount of the time), but it is more of a viable option. And even in Fallout 3, if you weren't using VATS all the time, you still had to aim and where you hit an enemy affected damage (i.e. headshots always do a lot more damage regardless of your stats or weapon). It's not a pure FPS, and I never said it was. It's an RPG with FPS mechanics. Same as Borderlands, Deus Ex, Mass Effect (well, TPS mechanics anyway), The Division (TPS), and yes, Destiny.

Klutz64

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Re: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread
« Reply #590 on: September 07, 2016, 01:05:01 PM »
The problem with Zelda is that Zelda 2 exists (and it looks like BotW will be right up there as well). While heavily skill dependent, AoL has honest to god stats and ability progression.

That shouldn't really be part of the consideration, though. Super Mario RPG, Paper Mario, and Mario & Luigi are all RPGs covered by the site, but that doesn't mean the site suddenly needs to cover all Mario games.

Wild Armor

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Re: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread
« Reply #591 on: September 07, 2016, 03:57:53 PM »
I just wanted Steambot Chronicles on the list.

Arvis

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Re: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread
« Reply #592 on: September 07, 2016, 04:47:19 PM »
I just wanted Steambot Chronicles on the list.

Hey there, why does it feel like I haven't seen you post in a while?
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Wild Armor

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Re: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread
« Reply #593 on: September 07, 2016, 07:03:24 PM »
I just wanted Steambot Chronicles on the list.

Hey there, why does it feel like I haven't seen you post in a while?


Rucks

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Re: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread
« Reply #594 on: September 07, 2016, 07:20:42 PM »
I just wanted Steambot Chronicles on the list.

Hey there, why does it feel like I haven't seen you post in a while?

^ Not a new trend, a large portion of the editorial staff rarely posts on the plebe forums.  Though Wild Armor was active here before he got the call up.


Aeolus

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Re: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread
« Reply #595 on: September 07, 2016, 07:29:13 PM »
The problem with Zelda is that Zelda 2 exists (and it looks like BotW will be right up there as well). While heavily skill dependent, AoL has honest to god stats and ability progression.

That shouldn't really be part of the consideration, though. Super Mario RPG, Paper Mario, and Mario & Luigi are all RPGs covered by the site, but that doesn't mean the site suddenly needs to cover all Mario games.

True, but Mario is so goddamn prolific that its done everything short of a first person shooter (what the hell is Yoshi's Safari if not an FPS with a lightgun gimmick? (okay, maybe an on-rails shooter ala Star Fox, but details...)). Sports, Kart Racers, RPGs, Puzzles, Fighters (in so much as being one of the main faces of Smash Bros can be considered under a particular umbrella), Edutainment, Auto-Run, Art Simulators, Game-Making Simulators, and so on.... And then you have all the series spun off of Mario like Yoshi's Island, Donkey Kong Country (although this one's debatable), Wario Land/Ware, Luigi's Mansion, Super Princess Peach, and the list goes on.

Zelda isn't nearly that prolific, and moreover, Zelda 2 is straight up mainline Zelda. Its not Zelda RPG or Super Zelda Kart and there aren't many Zelda spinoffs (mostly Tingle's stuff and Crossbow Training). And again, Call of the Wild is looking far more RPG than the series has ever looked before, so it might finally be time to consider that it might be fair game for RPG coverage.
In my vision, I see that one of us is going to KO the other.

Wild Armor

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Re: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread
« Reply #596 on: September 07, 2016, 07:35:34 PM »
I just wanted Steambot Chronicles on the list.

Hey there, why does it feel like I haven't seen you post in a while?

^ Not a new trend, a large portion of the editorial staff rarely posts on the plebe forums.  Though Wild Armor was active here before he got the call up.


Lard

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Re: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread
« Reply #597 on: September 07, 2016, 10:20:17 PM »
I feel like we should've been a little clearer on the list. So like, our Essential Ten can consist of any game the site has covered. But I think the debate it's creating is exactly what the guys wanted.

If you wanted people to talk about games that aren't rpgs, mission accomplished.

I mean you (the staff - the royal you) didn't even quantify why games like Destiny or Zelda were on the list, other than you liked them.

And if you're going to start including every game that has "rpg like mechanics" on your lists, then you're required to start including stuff like CoD and Madden, which is just silly. It's pretty easy to define what is an rpg and what isn't. There were plenty of games that weren't rpgs on this list.

Hell, I like visual novels. I play visual novels.  But they're not rpgs. Other than rpgs and visual novels both having a linear story, there are no definable rpg mechanics in a visual novel. And not every rpg is linear so that comparison doesn't even hold up.

And I stand by the claim that the reasoning for keeping some games was ridonkulous.

Grandia? "Haven't played it, it can't stay".

Steambot Chronicles? "Played an hour, I'll argue it can stay".

ME2? "I'm going to play it in the future, I'll argue it can stay". (You didn't even argue for the good ME game!)


If you're this sour about the choices, make your own forum post or write the site to do your fan-submitted feature.  I'd honestly be interested in your personal Top 10 if theirs ticked you off so much.

Nah my list would get vetoed because it's too inaccessible.

Hate to say it, but I find myself agreeing with Lard on almost every point, despite continuing to really dislike his attitude.


You really had to phrase it that way?
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Monsoon

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Re: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread
« Reply #598 on: September 07, 2016, 10:50:37 PM »
We're posting a special Dreamcast RPGs episode today, and the next two weeks will be the two Valkyria Chronicles episodes.  It's Sega month!  (total coincidence). After those we have a special 50th episode planned, which is getting posted on the 28th. 

We're still yet to record our first Danganronpa episode due to scheduling difficulties.  If you want to ask a question or make sure we address a specific topic, then post it here or send an email to retro@rpgfan.com.  Thanks for listening and discussing! 

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Re: Retro Encounter Podcast Thread
« Reply #599 on: September 07, 2016, 10:56:14 PM »
Nah my list would get vetoed because it's too inaccessible.



Quote
Hate to say it, but I find myself agreeing with Lard on almost every point, despite continuing to really dislike his attitude.


You really had to phrase it that way?

You're not exactly a role model ya'know. :P

Quote
I tried listening to the top ten thread and holy fuck it is offensively bad.

Then, whoever said the newer Star Trek movies were better than the old ones? Fuck you, you have legitimately terrible taste. Cutting Nocturne over Mass Effect 2? A complete and utter fucking joke. You are terrible, terrible people.

"Nocturne is too hard! Wahhh! Etrian Odyssey is too hard! Wahhh!"

Christ, somebody get you guys baby's first rpg.

The whining and pissing and moaning about Chrono Cross almost 20 years later is loooooong past the point of being a circlejerk.

[...]

Lastly, people voting for games they'd played either an hour of or they intended to play is fucking retarded. Some of the worst reasoning I have ever heard for including a game on a list.

We're posting a special Dreamcast RPGs episode today, and the next two weeks will be the two Valkyria Chronicles episodes.  It's Sega month!  (total coincidence). After those we have a special 50th episode planned, which is getting posted on the 28th. 

We're still yet to record our first Danganronpa episode due to scheduling difficulties.  If you want to ask a question or make sure we address a specific topic, then post it here or send an email to retro@rpgfan.com.  Thanks for listening and discussing! 

I feel like saying the Dreamcast was a weird system is more right than for any other console mainly because it felt like it was largely made of of "hidden gems", all the time.
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