Author Topic: Mass Effect 3 anyone?/Bioware thread

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Artimicia

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Mass Effect 3 anyone?/Bioware thread
« on: January 14, 2016, 09:46:06 AM »
Well, so, I wasn't really around here when the ME3 ending business happened, settling for the archaic experience of just playing Mass Effect 3 a lot and I remember at the time going well that was pretty interesting, and then moved on with other things.

I noticed there was an old thread on it that died around 2013, but now I wanted to get more into it.

Well now having found myself going into it and more detail I can't help but notice this was also where there was a lot of frustration and all that regarding the ending, and it's like ok lets break this down...

..that's a pretty powerful experience right there in Mass Effect 3, like I'm really impressed how they really went that far in terms of the drama and intensity, it's just a pretty intense experience. That reaction to the ME3 ending was pretty much all people just feeling kind of ill-equipped to handle that kind of intensity I think, so they all kind of lashed out negatively. Objectively speaking it was quite engaging, I mean, the entire game, but also the ending. It was a strong build on Mass Effect 2, which also maintained a lot of strong elements from the previous game before that.

As for the ending

Spoiler: show


It seems to me the ending was pretty straightforward, you could sacrifice yourself and control the Reapers, you could sacrifice the Geth/ Lots of higher technology but save yourself and pretty much all organic life, you could take a chance on the idea of "synthesis" which is what the Reaper sentience tells you (who is pretty unreliable frankly) that it is the final stage of evolution and synthetics and organic life will merge in some unexplained way.


Control is out because you, the player, are just logically never going to be sacrificing yourself, that's just how that works. The person in control of the decision isn't going to rationally do that no matter what the "numbers" or "greatest good" might suggest.


Destroy is pretty good because it gets rid of the Reapers and saves a lot of people, bad because it gets rid of a lot of technology and wipes out like the Geth and stuff. Overall, it's hard to say how the numbers would be.. but it seems logical to conclude that you would be wiping a lot of life which is really bad but since it's in the interests of saving a huge portion of other life, and you the player Commander Shepard survive, it's the winner against control easily.


Synthesis is theoretically the best but there is no evidence to really conclude it is the best. The reality is fans need to step back and just accept that this is just kind of video game whimsy on some level and it was probably never meant to be taken super seriously. Based on what was in the original game, the reality is that there really isn't any simple way to conclude whether Synthesis is better than destroy or vice versa, it's more likely to conclude that it's worst of the two since


1) it's hard to believe a merged synthetic-organic is really like what it's been before for those people. on some instinctual level.


2) considering that the galactic child person was already telling you things that fundamentally weren't true (we do this for your own good, which is literally impossible because according to him/it the actual extinction of people during a cycle is completely acceptable to them and ok, which is impossible because the sentience is gone and I mean it's just terrible obviously), his character is in question as to what he's telling you is actually true on any fundamental level, and not to meant to serve their interests.


3) Pretty much everything about chaos and restoring cycle and stuff is also all pretty silly just like Kyubey in Madoka Magica really... like he/it is basically some killer robot of some kind basically.


Consequently, the best option seemed pretty clearly Destroy.





Honestly though, ignoring all that, just the way the ending came up with all the graphics and the energy in the production and experience and stuff is all very intense, very much like many other Bioware games throughout their history. I definitely think they've always committed themselves to offering a cool and powerful experience.


I suspect for many it was their first Bioware game, or at least a recent one, because people I know who played those games before ME or DA were at least used to what a Bioware game felt like and there wasn't really a substantial deviation with ME3, and moreover most of those people actually liked the ending for the most part.


In fact, going back and replaying (or play for the first time) older games such as KOTOR, NWN, or even Baldur's Gate, and honestly (perhaps to certain player's unhappiness) that those games actually frequently offer even more intense experiences than Mass Effect 3, or the Mass Effect series in general. They don't necessarily have the same kinds of endings, or the same level of graphics, but for those craving those kind of experiences but they are certainly quite powerful experiences and from that perspective ME3 was somewhat par for the course.


Not only that, the train hasn't stopped at DA and ME, SWTOR very much has continued that trend in several respects, although I do not necessarily sense it is always at that same extreme level of intensity, most of the core game as well as recent expansions seem to continue at a larger higher energy.

I guess essentially it's hard to understand so much negative energy and stuff around this one thing, when one Bioware has clearly achieved quite a lot in several respects, but also they have really followed the same ideas in many way sin most of their games, and even in super recent history as far as this company goes, not to say they are impervious to things less fun, in fact the most recent Dragon Age game was perhaps one of the less savory efforts, capturing the surface but not the core of a Bioware game in many respects.

But yeah overall I guess I sorta missed on a lot of the discussion but that's how it all appeared to me, and yeah I don't know how other people felt about that game or Bioware games generally on this forum and like I said there was an ME3 thread but since it was so old it advised me starting a new topic so here we are... although I can't say I would necessarily be the type to follow up and keep posting, I guess I was just curious what other people kind of thought about it while sharing my own opinion.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 01:43:56 PM by Artimicia »
"I don't live by labels, I can be anything I want, I'd rather die a pauper than live on as someone else's fantasy!" - My best attempt at quoting the protagonist of Vandal Hearts 2.

Agent D.

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Re: Mass Effect 3 anyone?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2016, 09:52:57 AM »
I know it's been like 3 or 4 years now, so spoiling ME3's ending isn't to big a deal, but if you are trying to use spoiler tags, I'd recommend making sure they actually applied before posting. You may ruin someone's day otherwise.

For future reference, it's code in brackets for our spoiler tags here.

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Annubis

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Re: Mass Effect 3 anyone?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2016, 10:11:47 AM »
Control is out because you, the player, are just logically never going to be sacrificing yourself, that's just how that works. The person in control of the decision isn't going to rationally do that no matter what the "numbers" or "greatest good" might suggest.

I wouldn't agree with this since I sacrificed myself in Dragon Age: Origin.

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Re: Mass Effect 3 anyone?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2016, 11:10:46 PM »
I enjoyed the first two Mass Effect games and played them quite a bit.  Mass Effect 3 doesn't still engender the hatred that it did.  I think it's less that I've gotten over the ending and more that I've forgotten about this series very quickly.  I had a talk with an RPGFan editor about Mass Effect the other day over Twitter...or tried to, because I couldn't remember the name of whatever alien race Garrus is, whatever alien race Mordin is, and whatever alien race Wrex is.

I don't think these games are gonna be ones that stick with me over the decades, man.


Ranadiel

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Re: Mass Effect 3 anyone?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2016, 06:57:52 AM »
tl;dr

The best ending to ME3 is Refuse as it is the only one that allowed my Shepard to be a consistent character with every single other decision he made throughout the series...actually the best ending is uninstall, but that isn't normally included in the ending discussions.

Lian_Kazairl

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Re: Mass Effect 3 anyone?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2016, 01:01:35 PM »
That reaction to the ME3 ending was pretty much all people just feeling kind of ill-equipped to handle that kind of intensity I think, so they all kind of lashed out negatively. Objectively speaking it was quite engaging, I mean, the entire game, but also the ending.

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. The vitriol has nothing to do with ending--or even the game itself--being "too intense" and everything to do with it not being a satisfying conclusion to the series. It didn't really deliver on the promise of the series and tried to wrap up a lot of loose threads in the most blunt and inelegant way possible. The Extended Cut did help to make your choice a bit more meaningful by distinguishing each ending and having a Dragon Age-style slideshow that responds to some of your key decisions, but it's a band-aid on a wound that really required surgery.

Looking back on it now, my biggest problem with the ending, even the EC, is that while the trilogy takes place across an entire galaxy and deals with an ancient evil, it's really all about the characters: Shepard and his/her relationship with the members of the Normandy crew. The EC slides don't really do a whole lot to tell you what happens to those characters, and the nature of all the endings means that you don't get a payoff for all those friendships/rivalries/romances you built up over the course of three games. That's by and large the reason why the Citadel DLC, despite being goofy at times, is a much better "ending" to the game than the actual ending: it celebrates all those great characters and gives them the send off they deserved.

I mean, it's great that you found the ending engaging. I know there are people who enjoyed it, and all the more power to them. But many of us did not, and it's not because we can't "handle that kind of intensity."

Quote
I suspect for many it was their first Bioware game, or at least a recent one, because people I know who played those games before ME or DA were at least used to what a Bioware game felt like and there wasn't really a substantial deviation with ME3, and moreover most of those people actually liked the ending for the most part.

I would actually expect people who had never played a Bioware game before ME3 to be more accepting of the ending than those of us who played the previous games. Because it's really the way the ending deviates from the rest of the game and the spirit of the series that is the issue. Someone who has never played the other games won't have as strong of a connection to the characters or the story, so they won't mind as much when both kind of get thrown under the bus. Like I said before, it's not really a satisfying conclusion to the series, and that is going to be felt much harder by those who have been invested in Mass Effect since the first game.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 01:06:10 PM by Lian_Kazairl »

Der Jermeister

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Re: Mass Effect 3 anyone?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2016, 02:55:35 PM »
I'm playing through the Mass Effect trilogy now for the PlayStation 3, and am close to the end of a first game. My old fat PS3 stopped working for me and wouldn't even load the second game, leading me to get a new slim model, and it's been working fine. Been a while since I've played the third game, but I really don't get complaints about the ending.

Artimicia

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Re: Mass Effect 3 anyone?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2016, 09:35:14 PM »
Control is out because you, the player, are just logically never going to be sacrificing yourself, that's just how that works. The person in control of the decision isn't going to rationally do that no matter what the "numbers" or "greatest good" might suggest.

I wouldn't agree with this since I sacrificed myself in Dragon Age: Origin.

Well it's not that it never happens, but my experience is most people are probably going to want that one back in the event they do it.
"I don't live by labels, I can be anything I want, I'd rather die a pauper than live on as someone else's fantasy!" - My best attempt at quoting the protagonist of Vandal Hearts 2.

Artimicia

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Re: Mass Effect 3 anyone?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2016, 09:38:37 PM »
That reaction to the ME3 ending was pretty much all people just feeling kind of ill-equipped to handle that kind of intensity I think, so they all kind of lashed out negatively. Objectively speaking it was quite engaging, I mean, the entire game, but also the ending.

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. The vitriol has nothing to do with ending--or even the game itself--being "too intense" and everything to do with it not being a satisfying conclusion to the series. It didn't really deliver on the promise of the series and tried to wrap up a lot of loose threads in the most blunt and inelegant way possible. The Extended Cut did help to make your choice a bit more meaningful by distinguishing each ending and having a Dragon Age-style slideshow that responds to some of your key decisions, but it's a band-aid on a wound that really required surgery.

Looking back on it now, my biggest problem with the ending, even the EC, is that while the trilogy takes place across an entire galaxy and deals with an ancient evil, it's really all about the characters: Shepard and his/her relationship with the members of the Normandy crew. The EC slides don't really do a whole lot to tell you what happens to those characters, and the nature of all the endings means that you don't get a payoff for all those friendships/rivalries/romances you built up over the course of three games. That's by and large the reason why the Citadel DLC, despite being goofy at times, is a much better "ending" to the game than the actual ending: it celebrates all those great characters and gives them the send off they deserved.

I mean, it's great that you found the ending engaging. I know there are people who enjoyed it, and all the more power to them. But many of us did not, and it's not because we can't "handle that kind of intensity."

Quote
I suspect for many it was their first Bioware game, or at least a recent one, because people I know who played those games before ME or DA were at least used to what a Bioware game felt like and there wasn't really a substantial deviation with ME3, and moreover most of those people actually liked the ending for the most part.

I would actually expect people who had never played a Bioware game before ME3 to be more accepting of the ending than those of us who played the previous games. Because it's really the way the ending deviates from the rest of the game and the spirit of the series that is the issue. Someone who has never played the other games won't have as strong of a connection to the characters or the story, so they won't mind as much when both kind of get thrown under the bus. Like I said before, it's not really a satisfying conclusion to the series, and that is going to be felt much harder by those who have been invested in Mass Effect since the first game.

Well with respect, I didn't find the ending to ME3 to be all that different from other Bioware games. There's no like.. Citadel experience with Neverwinter Nights (a game in which the entire world is besieged and huge portions of Neverwinter torn apart and destroyed) or so on and so forth. ME3 was unique in that it added in a lot more stuff and that there seemed to be a lot more expectations.

I mean, most video games we have now just don't really differ substantially in their endings from most other games once upon a time, so I'm not sure why ME3 is held to this extra standard where everything needs a kind of send-off or reunion and that sort of deal, or why the absence of something that didn't really exist would be such a severe issue.

It just seemed all pretty consistent both with other Mass Effect games and also other Bioware games.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 11:38:18 PM by Artimicia »
"I don't live by labels, I can be anything I want, I'd rather die a pauper than live on as someone else's fantasy!" - My best attempt at quoting the protagonist of Vandal Hearts 2.

Artimicia

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Re: Mass Effect 3 anyone?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2016, 11:22:56 PM »
Frankly though, I am somewhat amenable to the notion that ME3 was a disappointment to some. The simple fact is that Bioware games started off strongest and became less appealing over time... ME was never my personal favorite franchise.

Moreover, there's that whole issue with the fans and all. I'm sorry but, some of that just seemed like it was going way too far, someone who does everything within their power to never say anything positive about someone or something or an organization, hang on every word, criticize at every opportunity, like I get that they're passionate and all but I don't quite understand just what it is that threw everyone off about that ending in particular or why they acted to that way.

It just seemed odd and crazy, especially considering the ending didn't really seem out of touch with the most of Bioware games.. but ah well.  Everyone I knew who played Bioware games as far back as Baldur's Gate 1 was fine with the ending, the people who didn't like the ME3 ending were primarily people who had just come into the series recently. In fact, I don't know anyone who played the earlier Bioware games who was dissatisfied by the ending etc.

You seem like a type that wants to make reasoned criticisms Kazairl =-).

Ultimately, Bioware has had a lot of games way ahead of their time... I feel like they never really did get to know all the lets just say people that were super excited to play the next Bioware game and actually found the ME3 ending quite fine in many ways.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 05:49:33 AM by Artimicia »
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Re: Mass Effect 3 anyone?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2016, 11:26:06 PM »
Honestly, I feel like if you need three games to tell your story, what you REALLY need is an editor.
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Annubis

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Re: Mass Effect 3 anyone?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2016, 11:51:43 PM »
Honestly, I feel like if you need three games to tell your story, what you REALLY need is an editor.

Or an economist so that you don't forget the 4th game as a prequel to the trilogy.

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Ranadiel

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Re: Mass Effect 3 anyone?
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2016, 08:34:34 AM »
It just seemed odd and crazy, especially considering the ending didn't really seem out of touch with the most of Bioware games.. but ah well.  Everyone I knew who played Bioware games as far back as Baldur's Gate 1 was fine with the ending, the people who didn't like the ME3 ending were primarily people who had just come into the series recently. In fact, I don't know anyone who played the earlier Bioware games who was dissatisfied by the ending etc.
Bullcrap. I have played every single Bioware RPG since Baldur's Gate 1 except for Jade Empires (including all 8 class stories in SWTOR), and I found ME3's ending to laughably bad. There are so many issues with the ending that if I were to write out a long winded post about everything wrong with the ending, I don't even know which issue I should start with. Should I start with the developers lying about how the ending wasn't going to be a choice of a, b, or c? Should I start with the thematic disconnect with ME1 where it turns out that Saren was right all along? Or should I go with the fact that Shepard is forced to accept a premise for a central conflict that was never a central conflict before, and that when it did come up you were always able to refute the position you are now forced to take? Well unless you take the refuse ending (which was not in the original release) in which case the ending is effectively Mac Walters giving you the middle finger because you don't understand his grand vision.

I'm sure that for some Shepards the ending worked just fine, but if you don't believe in this nonsense that starbrat was pushing the whole thing becomes incredibly unsatisfactory. To end this post, I shall be quoting one of my friends (who does not represent my opinion, but I feel it an appropriate way to end) with what he says whenever the topic of the Bioware or Mass Effect comes up in one of our conversation as a result of this ending, "Fuck Bioware."

Artimicia

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Re: Mass Effect 3 anyone?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2016, 10:25:21 AM »
It just seemed odd and crazy, especially considering the ending didn't really seem out of touch with the most of Bioware games.. but ah well.  Everyone I knew who played Bioware games as far back as Baldur's Gate 1 was fine with the ending, the people who didn't like the ME3 ending were primarily people who had just come into the series recently. In fact, I don't know anyone who played the earlier Bioware games who was dissatisfied by the ending etc.
Bullcrap. I have played every single Bioware RPG since Baldur's Gate 1 except for Jade Empires (including all 8 class stories in SWTOR), and I found ME3's ending to laughably bad. There are so many issues with the ending that if I were to write out a long winded post about everything wrong with the ending, I don't even know which issue I should start with. Should I start with the developers lying about how the ending wasn't going to be a choice of a, b, or c? Should I start with the thematic disconnect with ME1 where it turns out that Saren was right all along? Or should I go with the fact that Shepard is forced to accept a premise for a central conflict that was never a central conflict before, and that when it did come up you were always able to refute the position you are now forced to take? Well unless you take the refuse ending (which was not in the original release) in which case the ending is effectively Mac Walters giving you the middle finger because you don't understand his grand vision.

I'm sure that for some Shepards the ending worked just fine, but if you don't believe in this nonsense that starbrat was pushing the whole thing becomes incredibly unsatisfactory. To end this post, I shall be quoting one of my friends (who does not represent my opinion, but I feel it an appropriate way to end) with what he says whenever the topic of the Bioware or Mass Effect comes up in one of our conversation as a result of this ending,

Ok let me put it this way, clearly Mass Effect always felt like a popcorn franchise in Bioware terms anyway, like I never took it crazy seriously. It was never really as fun as their other franchises, so the ending just kinda didn't strike hard one way or another.. ah well.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 10:27:54 AM by Artimicia »
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Alisha

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Re: Mass Effect 3 anyone?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2016, 06:06:04 PM »
i dont get the hate for the ending at all. maybe because i was late to the series.

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