Author Topic: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross

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Hidoshi

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Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« on: November 16, 2016, 02:02:03 PM »
So my buddy Satchell does videos over with Normal Boots and he's a big proponent of Chrono Cross. A few years ago, he totally turned my thinking around about the game and its place as a CT sequel.

Well, today he's followed up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONInWM8qd1Y

I'm a huge fan of his connective theory-making and thought it'd be a nice little look back at one of the classic debates in RPGs.

Arvis

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2016, 04:29:53 PM »
Added to my Watch Later queue.  I'll get to it in a month or two.  Always interested in anything positive about Chrono Cross, which is one of the greatest video games ever made.
"You know, you're pretty cool too, Arvis.  You like good music, good games, and good tennis." - Divingfalcons

Rucks

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2016, 05:08:47 PM »
Chrono Cross, which is one of the greatest video games ever made.

Very much this


Hathen

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2016, 07:02:12 AM »
I've always thought that even if you don't think Chrono Cross is a great game, you should at least think it's one of the most interesting and daring games ever made (and in many ways also one of the most blatantly rushed).

Always a fan of Chrono Cross discussions, though being that I've been through this song and dance many times, he didn't really go over anything anybody who was moderately careful in reading the game's text wouldn't have figured out. Bit disappointed he didn't touch on the overall themes of the game, which to me has always been more interesting than the time-space and dimensional shenanigans. Though I guess it's fun to mindfuck yourself over that as well.

One thing that brought up somewhat often is Masato Kato's age when he was working on the game- mid to late 30s, as I recall. Appropriate to his own age, and to the aging of the fanbase that grew up playing Trigger and other such straightforward adventure RPG stories, he decided to instead go with a crazy cobweb story where the meaning of reality and existence is questioned. One thing I've always thought was a weird criticism of this decision is how people state that the story doesn't work because Kato isn't privy to the knowledge of any sort of hidden meaning behind the meaning of life- by that logic, you should never, ever write stories tackling this theme. Cross is certainly nowhere near the best story I've experienced with these themes, but I think it's a decent effort considering the target audience, and I can't think of a lot of other video games that even try.

I'll go ahead and paste the ending spiel Kato wrote so you guys don't have to look for it yourself. Spoilers obviously.

Quote
   Love to hate...
   Hate to love...
   Why are we born?
   Why do we die?
   
   Evolution?
   The '"survival of the fittest?"'
   What is there to be achieved from
   harming one another...
   killing one another...

   The '"eggs"' that we call planets...
   And the innumerable '"spermatozoa"'
   which gather around these
   that we call life-forms...
   
   When one of those countless seeds
   inseminates a planet,
   a new universe is born.
   
   But until that occurs,
   hundreds of millions of years will pass,
   and innumerable life-forms will be born,
   then die...

   That is the be-all and end-all.
   Everything exists for that one moment.
   All so that the universe can evolve
   into the next dimension...

   Does that make us all just pawns?
   Are each of our short lives
   nothing but a cheap sacrifice
   just so the one chosen life-form
   can be born?

   No. That is not the case!
   Each and every one of us
   has a chance of becoming
   that one chosen life-form
   which inseminates a planet.
   Yes, it could be '"you"'...
   
   Genes and environment...
   Each of us tries to do his best
   under the limited conditions
   we are each dealt.
   
   Each life-form that attempts to
   eke out a decent life for itself
   forms a link in the golden chain
   that leads to the creation of
   a new universe.

   If one link is missing,
   there will be no future.
   
   There is no such thing as
   a useless life-form...
   No such thing as
   a pawn!

   Every single thing
   in the whole of nature
   is perhaps just dreaming
   a dream of '"life"'...
   
   All of them are also
   perhaps nothing more than
   a dream dreamt by the planet
   before it is born.

   Oh, but yes...
   Eventually all dreams
   will return to Zurvan...
   to the sea of dreams...

   Serge...!
   Don't go yet, Serge...!!!
   It's alright.
   Everything is alright now.

   Time, which has been divided,
   will be unified again now.
   
   The time for farewells has come...
   You will lose all memory of
   this whole adventure
   and return to your own time.
   
   But this time, you will be able
   to live your own life!

   ...

   Thus the curtain closes on another tale.
   
   An eternity has passed...
   Fleeting dreams fade into the distance...
   All that is left now
   Is me and my memories...
   
   But I'm sure we'll meet again,
   Someday, you and I...
   Another place, another time.
   
   It's just that we might not realize
   That you are you and I am me...
   
   Let us open the door to the great unknown,
   Come across another reality,
   And live another today...
   Even when the story has been told,
   Life goes on...
   
   Until we meet again,
   Take care of yourself, my friend...
   
   Forever yours,
   
   Schala "Kid" Zeal

Go ahead and google Zurvan if you're not familiar with it, I certainly wasn't when I first read it so I was pretty much going "wtf". It does fit thematically though, since it's drawn from the same religions that Zeal was based off of. I mean, it's a lot of words to basically say "the only meaning of life I can imagine is to make connections with other people". That's what I take from it, anyway. Also it's pretty obvious this was written with the assumption the player is male (wouldn't be surprised if Kato was going through some mental issues when he was writing this stuff), since it's assuming you identify as Serge and you're now "exiting" the world of Chrono Cross to pursue meaning in the real world and find "your" Kid. In that sense, it's not hard to argue that Kato's message failed, because it's likely most of us just went "wat", threw the game aside, then started the next game in our pile.

That's without going into weird out-of-place shit in the game like the Alien character who serves almost no purpose other than to give you a plot convenience near the end of the game. Or them deciding to use that awful insane circus parade music (the only bad track in the game) as the regular battle theme.

Frostillicus

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2016, 10:01:28 AM »
I played Cross for the first time ever earlier this year. Overall, I enjoyed it. The combat system takes some getting used to, but it's fun and effective once you do. The music is easily among the best I've heard in any video game.
What I didn't appreciate is that the dungeons in both words are almost exactly the same. I get the concept of why in itself, but in the end, it just felt like lazy game design to me. It honestly makes the game world(s) as a whole feel confining, and repetitive. By the time the game was over, I was glad to be done with said world(s). I doubt I'll ever play the game again, honestly. I definitely like it better than Trigger. I never understood all of the hype that game gets.


That's without going into weird out-of-place shit in the game like the Alien character who serves almost no purpose other than to give you a plot convenience near the end of the game. Or them deciding to use that awful insane circus parade music (the only bad track in the game) as the regular battle theme.

I ended up having to look up that "plot convenience", because it is entirely out of left field. I had no idea what to do at that point.

IhaveFURY

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2016, 04:23:29 PM »
Chrono Cross and how it connects to/builds upon Chrono Trigger make for one of the most fascinating video game stories I've ever experienced. Thanks for sharing this!

Dincrest

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2016, 05:36:45 PM »
Anything I have to say about Chrono Cross (especially its connections and relationship to Trigger, which I thought was done in a classy way) is in my playlog thread: http://www.rpgfan.com/boards/index.php?topic=14711.0
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Aeolus

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2016, 09:16:54 PM »
Since I was one of those people who first played Trigger with the FF Chronicles collection and then got Cross shortly thereafter, I wasn't really bothered by the fact that it was a poor sequel so much as I was bothered by the fact that an SRPG sized cast of PCs doesn't really fit within a turn based RPG (especially with only three party slots, one of which is perpetually locked to the MC and only partially unlocked on a NG+), and the fact that my PSX (and it's replacement) kept crashing on me every time I tried to play it for more than an hour (which kinda killed some of my more marathon-ing tendencies towards gaming). Other than that (and the fact that it drags at so many places; I'm looking at you S.S. Zebless and the segment where you first get Lynx) it was a fine game and still a unique experience (Xenoblade Wii came really close with its beautiful environments set to chill BGMs, but Cross's environs were slightly more diverse in the end).

Also, hello Hidoshi. It's been awhile.
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Alisha

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2016, 06:35:05 AM »
i subed to this guy after his first chrono cross video.

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Hidoshi

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2016, 03:52:34 PM »
Satch is probably one of my fave YouTubers, and yeah, pretty much because of that first CC video. I hadn't taken CC seriously as a sequel until then. He and I became friends shortly after and the man's REALLY enthusiastic about lore like this, so it's great whenever he makes a video. Though yeah, way too many characters, though I do wonder if that was an attempt (albeit an overwrought one) to try and get the player involved with how "alive" the world was supposed to feel.

Glad everyone enjoyed that.

Lard

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2016, 09:28:32 PM »
I hate how unfairly maligned Cross is simply because it isn't Trigger 2.

Cross is a better game in every respect except for the loading times.
I avoid online multiplayer because my brain still works.

Rucks

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2016, 01:12:58 PM »
I hate how unfairly maligned Cross is simply because it isn't Trigger 2.

Cross is a better game in every respect except for the loading times.

^ Every bit of this.  I liked CT a lot when I was a kid and didn't know any better, but CC has held up far more over time. 


Arvis

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2016, 01:49:56 PM »
Me three.  Barring unmet expectations, there's little to no reason for any RPG fan to hate Cross.

I mean... that soundtrack.
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Dincrest

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2016, 02:39:54 PM »
In my playlog, my main gripes were the standard battle theme and one piece of vague/unclear event scripting.  Otherwise, game was immensely creative.
"I think I'm losing it.  I'm pulling out my hair trying to figure out what couch defines me as a person.  This is freaking madness.  This is hopeless.  This... my perfect little habitat here, and I still don't even know who I am."  - from Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom by Burnt By The Sun

Frostillicus

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2016, 02:47:25 PM »
my main gripes were the standard battle theme-

This.
As fantastic as almost all of the other music in the game is, the main battle theme (an undeniably critical track for almost any RPG) is uninspired, and gets old very fast. I can hear it in my head right now, and it's annoying me, with its dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun...