Author Topic: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross

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Hidoshi

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2016, 02:48:14 PM »
I think "better" is highly subjective here, because using objective design parameters (as best we can), Trigger's recognized as a "perfect" game for substantial reasons. Cross has an amazing soundtrack, fantastic world-building, and some pretty great hooks in its battle system. I would argue, however, that it's also visually overwrought in many places, its systems are poorly explained, and huge amounts of its character roster are disposable. Trigger doesn't really contain disposable elements. It's sleek, streamlined, and fires on all cylinders. Cross, by comparison, is more fleshy and cumbersome, and its excesses often make it feel unfinished or at least experimental.

That, for me, is the large dividing line between the two, and why I think so many people were "let down" by Cross. It wasn't just that it felt displaced from Trigger thematically (in reality it's not, but it hides some of the bridging at first), but that it also had a lot of "extra parts" that didn't feel thought through or refined down. Sort of an expressionistic painting versus a minimalistic one. Both are good, but minimalism is often praised as more concise, more well-developed, whereas expressionism is seen as experimental and a bit ostentatious.

None of that, of course, means Cross is a bad game (or I wouldn't be tossing that video up there to argue for it), nor even a bad sequel. But I would say it's rougher around the edges than Trigger. Trigger had a very refined set of hands crafting it, on a system that had been thoroughly explored and combed over by the time of its release. While some games like Tales of Phantasia or Star Ocean might show off the SNES'  processing power a bit more effectively, even they suffer from having many disposable or overwrought elements.

Cross, I think, does have a substantial main plot and very interesting links, and the battle system is great in its own right. Versatile and ahead of its time. Better designed and executed than Trigger? No, in my opinion. Not objectively, at least. Fantastic? Yes. Subjectively enjoyable in ways I didn't originally appreciate, and objectively well-designed, despite its excess. Very much more mature than I think its audience, myself included, were prepared for upon release.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 03:16:37 PM by Hidoshi »

Starmongoose

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2016, 02:50:56 PM »
I'm with Hidoshi, but to be honest the Chrono games were never something I was particularly invested in in the first place.


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Rucks

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2016, 03:48:26 PM »
re: CT

It sounds strange (to me) to describe a game with multiple endings as not containing anything disposable.

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Arvis

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2016, 04:40:28 PM »
streamlined

So, would I sound dumb if I said I thought Trigger was too streamlined?
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Hidoshi

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2016, 05:03:13 PM »
streamlined

So, would I sound dumb if I said I thought Trigger was too streamlined?

I wouldn't call it dumb, just not your preference. Streamlining can have an aesthetic effect that puts off some people. It's like how some folks just don't like Raymond Lowey car designs and prefer the frills and opulence of 1950s t-birds, or the kibble and squeak of 1980s BMW. Nothing wrong with it, but it's very subjective. Lowey is objectively one of the best designers the automotive industry has ever seen, but that doesn't make him for everyone's tastes. :)

re: CT

It sounds strange (to me) to describe a game with multiple endings as not containing anything disposable.

Eh, it's still a game about time travel. ;) To rephrase: there's very little that's disposable, but the nature of being a game about time travel demands a bit of whimsy.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 05:04:52 PM by Hidoshi »

Artimicia

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2016, 05:05:43 PM »
Chrono Cross is not as good as Xenoblade.

But I mean yeah, it has it's moments.

Chrono in general is pretty overrated I'd say CC is average and CT is ok.

I'll just quote the gamefaqs review for CT where they point out the best character in the game is a Frog.

CC outside of the time when you randomly swap to play as Lynx is pretty bog standard JRPG in many ways.

The soundtrack is Mitsuda grade amazing of course but can't save everything else.

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Arvis

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2016, 09:48:30 AM »
@Hidoshi: I have played Trigger once, enjoyed it, but remember very little of it.  None of the characters stood out much to be except Frog, and there were few plot points that stayed with me.  I think it all just flew by too fast.  I should probably play it again.

@Artimicia: Your FACE isn't as good as Xenoblade!!
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Aeolus

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2016, 10:18:42 AM »
Trigger has a few rough spots like the Ocean Palace and subsequent Black Omen (level design is actually rather garishly overdesigned and too repetitive for its length and the fact that you can revisit it up to three times per NG), but its bigger issue is that its a product of its time (admittedly the culmination of that era's JRPGs, but that was still the era that started with the end of the NES/Famicom era and was dominated by Dragon Quest clones and ATB). Also its Combo Techs idea was novel but rather underutilized (Single Techs were too powerful too often to ever really justify burning multiple characters' turns on a single action).

Cross is also a product of its time as the culmination of Square's era of initiative and experimentation before merging with Enix and settling on Final Fantasy for the Aughts (and really esoteric/Japanese Anime-ish games that outside of TWEWY were largely mediocre to awful). Granted the experimental nature of Cross doesn't always work in its favor and the tying of itself to Trigger's lore and setting was largely tenuous at best, but what it got right, it got it down cold, and its far easier to think of it as a Gaiden to Trigger that just happened to be a sequel in disguise than a full on sequel. The other big problem of Cross is that it really was the product of its era where developers flocked to 3D game design where neither the tech nor the technique were in place to accommodate 3D game design (the PS2 had the tech, but technique suffered even more than in the PSX era).

However, the two games are rather disparate from each other on a fundamental level, despite a lot of similar themes and elements.
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Annubis

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2016, 10:28:52 AM »
Part of Chrono Trigger's charm is its simplicity. With that said, there are some few moments of characterization and development that while concise are really effective.
Most people prefer Frog because his tiny bits are really hard hitting (that and people love 'a character seeking redemption').

Few of it is forced either since it's nearly all done in sidequests.

Artimicia

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2016, 02:25:48 PM »
@Hidoshi: I have played Trigger once, enjoyed it, but remember very little of it.  None of the characters stood out much to be except Frog, and there were few plot points that stayed with me.  I think it all just flew by too fast.  I should probably play it again.

@Artimicia: Your FACE isn't as good as Xenoblade!!

I'm so zoned out I honestly thought that was just a comment about the Face mechon in XB, so I was like "Yeah the Face Mechon was kind of a creepy villain and- oh wait...  a second."

But now I realized I guess I'm being owned? Damn.

"I don't live by labels, I can be anything I want, I'd rather die a pauper than live on as someone else's fantasy!" - My best attempt at quoting the protagonist of Vandal Hearts 2.

Artimicia

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2016, 02:27:34 PM »
Part of Chrono Trigger's charm is its simplicity. With that said, there are some few moments of characterization and development that while concise are really effective.
Most people prefer Frog because his tiny bits are really hard hitting (that and people love 'a character seeking redemption').

Few of it is forced either since it's nearly all done in sidequests.

I used to watch this scene for final exams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3pRXgMv2GE

Much better than the remake version, but yeah I mean I think it sums up whatever appeal there is in CT to me.
"I don't live by labels, I can be anything I want, I'd rather die a pauper than live on as someone else's fantasy!" - My best attempt at quoting the protagonist of Vandal Hearts 2.

Aeolus

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2016, 04:33:50 PM »
@Hidoshi: I have played Trigger once, enjoyed it, but remember very little of it.  None of the characters stood out much to be except Frog, and there were few plot points that stayed with me.  I think it all just flew by too fast.  I should probably play it again.

@Artimicia: Your FACE isn't as good as Xenoblade!!

I'm so zoned out I honestly thought that was just a comment about the Face mechon in XB, so I was like "Yeah the Face Mechon was kind of a creepy villain and- oh wait...  a second."

But now I realized I guess I'm being owned? Damn.

Double owning because its also a pun that took the ownage to a whole new level of win and own.
In my vision, I see that one of us is going to KO the other.

Artimicia

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2016, 08:49:03 PM »
@Hidoshi: I have played Trigger once, enjoyed it, but remember very little of it.  None of the characters stood out much to be except Frog, and there were few plot points that stayed with me.  I think it all just flew by too fast.  I should probably play it again.

@Artimicia: Your FACE isn't as good as Xenoblade!!

I'm so zoned out I honestly thought that was just a comment about the Face mechon in XB, so I was like "Yeah the Face Mechon was kind of a creepy villain and- oh wait...  a second."

But now I realized I guess I'm being owned? Damn.

Double owning because its also a pun that took the ownage to a whole new level of win and own.

Uh oh, spaghetti-O
"I don't live by labels, I can be anything I want, I'd rather die a pauper than live on as someone else's fantasy!" - My best attempt at quoting the protagonist of Vandal Hearts 2.

Alisha

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2016, 10:47:21 PM »
xenoblade is highly over rated it's just an offline mmo go play ff14 or something.

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Re: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2016, 12:20:34 AM »
xenoblade is highly over rated it's just an offline mmo go play ff14 or something.

one of those doesn't charge me monthly?
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