Author Topic: Things you can't bear in a JRPG  (Read 24390 times)

RPG-Man

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Re: Things you can't bear in a JRPG
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2018, 05:21:09 AM »
Start with Cold Steel. If you don't like CS you won't like the others.
But I heard they are all connect and are happen in the same world through chronological order, is that not true ?

I mean...attack sets you off....really?
It's not that attack sets me off, I have no problem with the attack command doing nothing special if it compliments the gameplay, as long as it makes sense it's ok, like in SRPGs for example, Final Fantasy Tactics or Disgaea, it's ok for attack to only do nothing but attack, because each character will have a lot of other options to make other than attack, they can move, throw objects/people, buff, recruit others, ect...there is strategy involved in our choices and thought behind every move.

But when it's a straight turn-based gameplay like Final Fantasy 9 for example, and the ONLY option for some characters to do especially early on, is only to do a normal attack...then yea I find that boring and a display of a lack of imagination, because wither you like it or not you only have one choice and that is to attack...that's it, and that attack option does one thing and on thing only, so my involvement as a player is almost nonexistent.

Now I only used FF9 as an example, even though I realize that FF9 was done that way because it was made with the idea of "back to the roots" kind of thing, and as a retrospective of the whole series to that point, so I don't really fault it that much, but others JRPGs who follow the same formula, while still having attack do nothing special, have no excuse for pulling this type of crap.

It's a relic of a time when JRPGs were still trying to find out who they are, like a lot of JRPG elements back then it was just another thing JRPGs borrowed from Dungeons and Dragons, but now that JRPGs have evolved and became their own huge genre with their own sub-genres, there is no need for them to keep something that makes no sense just because it's the "traditional" way, I love JRPGs because there is no other genre like it out there, and that's how it should be...imo.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 11:04:16 AM by RPG-Man »
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Frostillicus

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Re: Things you can't bear in a JRPG
« Reply #61 on: August 07, 2018, 09:23:54 AM »
this is 2014 people.

:/

Also, why even play JRPGs? I mean, I personally tend to avoid things that set me off.
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Arvis

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Re: Things you can't bear in a JRPG
« Reply #62 on: August 07, 2018, 09:47:37 AM »
Start with Cold Steel. If you don't like CS you won't like the others.

If you're more of a "Story First" guy, this could backfire.  Cold Steel 1 starts off really broad and tropey and can trick people into thinking the whole game is like that (spoiler: it isn't).

Start with Cold Steel. If you don't like CS you won't like the others.
But I heard they are all connect and are happen in the same world through chronological order, is that not true ?

No, that's true, but each saga only loosely connects to the others, so it honestly doesn't matter what order you play them in.  For instance, Sky is set in the country of Liberl and Cold Steel is set in the empire of Erebonia.  If you start with Cold Steel, there will be one or two references where someone will say "Can you believe what happened in Liberl?? OMG!" and then they'll mention something that happened in Sky in general terms.  While these references can technically be called spoilers, they won't actually affect your enjoyment of Sky when you play it.  In fact, the anticipation of finding out what they're talking about could even enhance your experience. 

CS1 and 2 are definitely making me want to play the Crossbell arc more than I ever have, for sure.
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Dincrest

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Re: Things you can't bear in a JRPG
« Reply #63 on: August 07, 2018, 10:29:17 AM »
And I feel like a lot of indie JRPGs or J-style RPGs out there are at least trying to provide distinct storytelling voices.  And with a lot of J-style RPGs being crafted by non-Japanese developers, we're seeing more of their style of storytelling rather than the more "because anime" storytelling of JRPGs.  Yes there are plenty that adhere closely to the tried and true tropes because nostalgia dollars are big business these days (look at all the 1980s and 1990s TV and film IPs that are being rebooted), but there are plenty that dare to experiment.  We just have to treasure hunt for them. 

I sometimes feel like Anachronox was the right RPG at the wrong time.  It was released back in 2001 and still remains a strong favorite of mine.  I know I wrote this piece back in 2009 (titled Why My Favorite JRPG isn't Japanese), but there are sentiments that still hold true today.   http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2009/640.html

One pullout quote from that editorial that ties into parts of this conversation is
Quote
Yet, we still stick with the [JRPG] genre because that's the kind of gaming we probably grew up with, enjoy best, can see amazing potential, and where we beg with frustration to see that potential realized. I myself have posted on the RPGFan forums time and time again about what I'd like to see happen in JRPGs and visual novels to get them out of the stagnant rut they're in and realize their potential.

I've said a lot throughout this thread, and I'm not sure if I said this at all.  If I did, sorry.  One annoyance I have is when a game's New Game + does not carry over my characters' levels.  When I'm doing NG+, I want to be able to blaze past stuff to get to the previously unseen storyline content.  Otherwise, if I have to grind again like I did before, I'm less inclined to play because it feels like repetitive busywork.  I did a ton of grinding the first time, I should be rewarded with an easy ride the second time around.  Otherwise it feels like finishing your homework and getting rewarded with more homework. 
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 10:31:15 AM by Dincrest »
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Arvis

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Re: Things you can't bear in a JRPG
« Reply #64 on: August 07, 2018, 11:01:17 AM »
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you Dincrest's favorite JRPG back in 2009, winning out over other JRPGs like Final Fantasy VII or Chrono Trigger:



LOL, just messing with you, Din.  We all have our quirks of taste. :P
Ugly polygons and cringey writing aside, some of this looks interesting. I like the cyberpunk vibe.
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Frostillicus

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Re: Things you can't bear in a JRPG
« Reply #65 on: August 07, 2018, 11:19:09 AM »
^
I know I've said this before, but since we are talking about this game again:

I REALLY wanted to like it, but that first area got tedious so very quick. Maze, because maze? No thanks. That, coupled with unclear objectives... I just wasn't feeling it. I suppose I could have shown more patience, but I wasn't getting the vibe that it was worth it, despite the hype surrounding it. My free time is so very precious these days. I have to be selective about where said free times goes. Maybe some day in the future...
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Agent D.

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Re: Things you can't bear in a JRPG
« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2018, 11:26:26 AM »
My only real peevs with rpgs of today are when they take steps backwards instead of forwards (Star Ocean 5). I'm also not a graphics whore but I find myself disappointed when a solid game like Octopath Traveller for example offers such depth and detail everywhere except for the characters themselves. I love octopath and all but I CONSTANTLY groan about the fact that in 2018 I'm looking at fucking 16 bit sprites. Honestly it did nothing for the game, it doesn't offer charm of any kind because the artwork is vastly impressive, it hardly helped make the game easier to produce because again EVERYTHING ELSE IS SUPER FUCKING DETAILED. I mean i just got to Riverford and the running river all over the place is fucking ridiculously well animated....SO WHY AM I LOOKING AT PRIMROSE IN 16 BIT EYESORE-ISH HORROR!?!?!

Still a 9/10 game though. Would highly recommend. Easy 10 if the character sprites were ditched, hell I'd probably call it my favorite rpg at that point.

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RPG-Man

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Re: Things you can't bear in a JRPG
« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2018, 11:38:09 AM »
this is 2014 people.

:/
Oops, I'll fix that typo.

Also, why even play JRPGs? I mean, I personally tend to avoid things that set me off.

I thought this is what this thread is all about ? things that you can't bear in JRPGs anymore, besides just because you love something doesn't mean you shouldn't see the faults in it, it's because you love it so much that you want it to improve and become even better, turning a blind to a genres fault is the reason a lot of classic genres fell out of favor and some even disappeared entirely.

While JRPGs didn't disappear like those other genres, I think everyone can agree it's not as popular as it used to be, not even half of that, but fortunately for us with the explosion of the indie scene and the PC being treated finally as a suitable console for JRPGs, the genre is slowly getting climbing back, and hopefully someday it will go back to garner the same popularity it had back in the day.

No, that's true, but each saga only loosely connects to the others, so it honestly doesn't matter what order you play them in.  For instance, Sky is set in the country of Liberl and Cold Steel is set in the empire of Erebonia.  If you start with Cold Steel, there will be one or two references where someone will say "Can you believe what happened in Liberl?? OMG!" and then they'll mention something that happened in Sky in general terms.  While these references can technically be called spoilers, they won't actually affect your enjoyment of Sky when you play it.  In fact, the anticipation of finding out what they're talking about could even enhance your experience. 

CS1 and 2 are definitely making me want to play the Crossbell arc more than I ever have, for sure.
Hmmm is that so...because I thought that some characters cameo from game to game, a friend told me that Trails of Blue/Zero characters play a big role in CS, is that not true ?

And I feel like a lot of indie JRPGs or J-style RPGs out there are at least trying to provide distinct storytelling voices.  And with a lot of J-style RPGs being crafted by non-Japanese developers, we're seeing more of their style of storytelling rather than the more "because anime" storytelling of JRPGs.  Yes there are plenty that adhere closely to the tried and true tropes because nostalgia dollars are big business these days (look at all the 1980s and 1990s TV and film IPs that are being rebooted), but there are plenty that dare to experiment.  We just have to treasure hunt for them. 
I agree, just taking from recent years I found out JRPGs like Battle Chasers: Nightwar (https://store.steampowered.com/app/451020/Battle_Chasers_Nightwar/) , Battle Chef Brigade (https://store.steampowered.com/app/452570/Battle_Chef_Brigade/), Tale of Wuxia series (https://store.steampowered.com/app/377530/Tale_of_Wuxia/), and just keep trying and use new methods to invigorate the genre.

This is also something you'll not see that much of in another other genre, the willingness of reinventing this genre, almost every other genre will wait for the one game that introduces a new feature to that genre, and when that feature becomes popular every new game in that genre will carbon copy that shit to death, not in JRPGs, there are literally hundreds of JRPGs with great mechanics that no other JRPG have copied, or if they did they made sure to add their own spin or innovation to it.

What's even better, back in the day at least, is that reinventing the JRPG wheel was the de facto MO, even now, no other genre is changing and transforming as much as JRPGs are, not even close, I can name now at least 10s of JRPGs that each work in a completely different way than the other, this is why I stuck with genre for so long after all these years, just think of it this way, games like FIFA and CoD are selling millions each year, but your hype for a new JRPG announcement is always 1000x times more than any of them.

P.S: Sorry for the huge posts, I tend to rant and ramble when talking about JRPGs, and by all means do tell me if it's starting to become a bother.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 12:34:44 PM by RPG-Man »
NPC: There's nothing wrong with drinking! And so what if my liver gives out? I always have a spare!

Nal: Uh...are you thinking about kidneys ?

NPC: Oh, yeah..Well, I guess I'm screwed. - Lunar: Silver Story

Frostillicus

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Re: Things you can't bear in a JRPG
« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2018, 12:07:57 PM »
Also, why even play JRPGs? I mean, I personally tend to avoid things that set me off.

I thought this is what this thread is all about ? things that you can't bear in JRPGs anymore, besides just because you love something doesn't mean you shouldn't see the faults in it, it's because you love it so much that you want it to improve and become even better, turning a blind to a genres fault is the reason a lot of classic genres fell out of favor and some even disappeared entirely.

While JRPGs didn't disappear like those other genres, I think everyone can agree it's not as popular as it used to be, not even half of that, but fortunately for us with the explosion of the indie scene and the PC being treated finally as a suitable console for JRPGs, the genre is slowly getting climbing back, and hopefully someday it will go back to garner the same popularity it had back in the day.

Whoops. For some reason, I was thinking this thread was about RPGs in general. Guess that should be considered a serious title read fail on my part. Also, as a father, I completely get your (valid) point in regards to recognizing flaws in the things/people you love. No argument there.

As for the lengthy posts, I personally don't mind. I'm a bit of a fast reader, and you seem to write well. I know several people here would appreciate tl;dr addendums, though.
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Arvis

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Re: Things you can't bear in a JRPG
« Reply #69 on: August 07, 2018, 12:15:18 PM »
[member=2037]Agent D.[/member] would you prefer 3d polygonal characters in Octopath?  Or just higher-res sprites?  I think Octo's characters fit the world they inhabit, and higher res character sprites would require higher res sprites for every single NPC as well in order to maintain visual verisimilitude.  But I honestly don't know if that would have worked with the style of the game, in general.  They may contrast too starkly with their surroundings.  The game looks pretty perfect as is.

No, that's true, but each saga only loosely connects to the others, so it honestly doesn't matter what order you play them in.  For instance, Sky is set in the country of Liberl and Cold Steel is set in the empire of Erebonia.  If you start with Cold Steel, there will be one or two references where someone will say "Can you believe what happened in Liberl?? OMG!" and then they'll mention something that happened in Sky in general terms.  While these references can technically be called spoilers, they won't actually affect your enjoyment of Sky when you play it.  In fact, the anticipation of finding out what they're talking about could even enhance your experience. 

CS1 and 2 are definitely making me want to play the Crossbell arc more than I ever have, for sure.
Hmmm is that so...because I thought that some characters cameo from game to game, a friend told me that Trails of Blue/Zero characters play a big role in CS, is that not true ?
That may be true (haven't played the Crossbell games) but, again, it's all about perspective.  Whether you see them first in Azure/Zero, Sky, or Cold Steel, all that matters is that you're getting to know the characters and are interested in their activity.  So again, the order doesn't really matter.
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Agent D.

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Re: Things you can't bear in a JRPG
« Reply #70 on: August 07, 2018, 01:24:29 PM »
[member=5295]Arvis[/member] I mean I would like the full FFVII remake treatment for it. For some reason though Squeenix seems to think that you can't have command driven turn based battles if the characters are realistic looking, but yeah I would love to see Primrose in some heavenly high res glory.

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Dincrest

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Re: Things you can't bear in a JRPG
« Reply #71 on: August 07, 2018, 03:28:09 PM »
[member=5295]Arvis[/member] Yeah, the game is 17 years old (it first came out in 2001) so of course the polygon models look dated.  As for the game's writing, I thought it was brilliant.  The game wholly embraced its absurdity in the most beautifully effortless way.  I see nothing cringey about the writing in the screenshot, especially considering the context regarding the characters (Sly Boots and Stiletto Anyway), their personalities, and their pasts.  I read those and chuckled.  Better than any dialogue options in most VNs, that's for sure. 

[member=5053]Frostillicus[/member] Yeah, the first area (The Bricks) could be a bit much, but I loved it because it felt like I was in an otherworldly Escher dimension.  I compare it to Midgar.  Back in the day, a lot of people shelved FF7 because they didn't like the Midgar sequence (which took a good 4-5 hours.)  I remember whenever someone said they disliked FF7, the response was always, "You didn't get out of Midgar yet, did you?"  That being said, Midgar was easily my favorite part of FF7 and I would often replay Midgar and stop once the party hit the overworld.  I'm also a fan of point-and-click games, and some of Anachronox's progression required that kind of mentality, so I fell into it nicely. 

Man I loved Anachronox.  That game was so wildly creative, so much fun, and had mojo like no other JRPG I've played.  It's too bad Ion Storm went belly-up, because that game deserves a sequel because it left off on a major cliffhanger.  Yeah, an Anachronox HD remaster and sequel would be ace, but that's purely wishful thinking.  I still think that back in 2001, Anachronox was too far ahead of its time to be embraced properly. 

So in trying to get the thread back on track... I'm grasping for straws here, but some JRPG related things I cannot bear include:
1) Thousand Arms not being available via PSN. (That game was a total guilty pleasure for me)

2) There will never be a Panzer Dragoon Saga remaster because the original source code was lost. (That game is one masterpiece I never had the chance to play and will forever remain an unfulfilled bucket-list JRPG)

3) There has never been a Tokimeki Memorial game in English. (Yes, I know it's a dating sim game, but many TokiMemo games do have turn-based RPG-style battles and the games themselves are highly stat driven like RPGs.) 

4) I mentioned Anachronox being a dead IP now since Ion Storm went belly-up, but Septerra Core is another non-Japanese JRPG that I thought had loads of potential and still looks rather nice today (it came out in 1999.)  But its developer went belly-up too, so there is no chance of me seeing a Septerra Core remake or sequel.  A remake would be great to iron out some of the original game's flaws. 
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Ex

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Re: Things you can't bear in a JRPG
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2018, 02:32:55 PM »
I don't know about "can't bear", but "really dislike" I can do a top 10.

1. Long unskippable cutscenes, especially before a hard boss.
2. Text dialogue that c r a w l s and can't be sped up.
3. Absurdly high encounter rates (makes playing 8-bit JRPGs a slog for me).
4. Fight through a long dungeon, but can't save before the dungeon boss.
5. Amnesiac protagonist (this covers half the JRPGs in existence probably).
6. Very slow character/enemy animations that make battles take forever.
7. Excessively high amounts of melodrama in plot/dialogue.
8. Sloppy shopping / inventory systems that make item/gear acquiring & management convoluted.
9. Final boss has more than two forms.
10. Walkthrough required due to incredibly unintuitive plot trigger progression.

Der Jermeister

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Re: Things you can't bear in a JRPG
« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2018, 09:48:34 PM »
[member=7940]Ex[/member] I pretty much agree with all your points.

Another thing I'd add, personally, is not knowing the identity of all 27 True Runes in the Suikoden franchise, before the "infinite universe" BS they pulled with Tierkreis and the PSP game with untranslated subtitle.
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Dincrest

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Re: Things you can't bear in a JRPG
« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2018, 06:05:21 AM »
I probably said this before in both this thread and others, but it hasn't escaped my notice that some of my gripes are ones I've been harping about since circa 2000.  You would think that in the almost 20 years since then, some of these would have been resolved. 

But no, there are still games on portable/handheld systems these days that don't have anywhere/anytime saving or at least a quicksave.   

I probably also mentioned somewhere else that I'm not a fan of voiced cutscenes that don't have subtitles.  Sometimes the recording quality isn't mixed/mastered properly and the voices sound muffled or are too low compared to the music and sound effects, so I can't tell what they're saying. 

I'm also still surprised that such things as "walkthrough required to compensate for vague plot direction and/or uncover convoluted secrets" still exist.  I remember back in the late 1990s and early 2000s, some games would plant secrets so obscure that they were basically there *to* sell strategy guides.  But that was ~20 years ago and the biz has changed. 

The power of love and friendship is still THE way to defeat the big-bad.  It was cheesy ~20 years ago and it's still cheesy now.

...

Fast forwarding to today, I know I've said this ad nauseam to the point where it's irritatingly annoying, but my main gripes for the current HD era of gaming are text fonts in menus and dialogue boxes that are ridiculously small with no way to make them bigger and menu interfaces that, while stylish, aren't ergonomically functional.  With today's technology, why isn't there a way to increase font sizes in games?  A little indie game like Echoes of the Fey: Episode 2 gives me a menu option to increase font size, yet bigger budget games from big name developers still don't.  http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/Echoes_of_the_Fey/index2.html

« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 05:51:37 PM by Dincrest »
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