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Subject: Persona 3: FES
Prize: $20 eShop, PSN or Steam code
Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Author Topic: Wow sony might actually have a top quality game on the PS3..  (Read 5755 times)
Alisha
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« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2007, 05:09:46 AM »

home looks stupid. PSU - combat = fail.
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everluck
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« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2007, 09:17:13 AM »

Alisha, I have to say, your logic is way over my head.
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Alisha
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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2007, 01:39:58 AM »

Quote from: "everluck"
Alisha, I have to say, your logic is way over my head.


why? people are creaming over something thats hardly new.
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Eusis
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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2007, 02:56:37 AM »

Quote from: "Alisha"
Quote from: "everluck"
Alisha, I have to say, your logic is way over my head.


why? people are creaming over something thats hardly new.

If it helps, I don't think anyone would really give a fuck if it weren't for free (or 'free').
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Hidoshi
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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2007, 03:41:17 AM »

That is a good point. Were this even like $5 a month, people would be like "well fuck that".

Even so, I'm just going to go ahead with my PS3 hate and give my final thoughts on Home:

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Ashton
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« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2007, 05:49:12 AM »

I see you're finally coming out of the closet now, Mark.
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Takezo
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« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2007, 12:36:56 PM »

Yeah, I don't have to explain why I don't like this optional system. It's Sony, fuck them on principle forever, minus the fact that 80% of the rpgs I play are on ps2.

I also love the irony of "this is hardly new". Isn't one of the huge selling points of that other box I mindlessly devote myself to, being able to play old games?
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Hidoshi
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« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2007, 07:43:43 AM »

Just because something is optional does not make it free from criticism. Nor does condoning something also remove the need for criticism. While I'll agree that I'm generally flippant towards Sony, I'm not that way to their developers, as in the third parties that produce for their console. Rather, I am directly critical of the company in terms of its own hardware and software, as well as its marketing practises. Its treatment of developers is quite good in fact, but in other fields it's been lacking.

Home is an example of this. I am of course jumping ahead, and not basing this on an empirical study. Home may in fact prove itself as a platform, and yet even if it attracts the quantity of users it desires, that may not prove to me its actual quality as an engine for content. To me, the entire concept is an obstruction to content itself. Hopefully it will be optional to the online process entirely, but then again it may not be. If it is entirely optional, that does not remove it from being a bad idea however.

Second Life, The Sims, etc, are all implementations of a Barbie Doll system. While I think the idea is enjoyable with proper implementation (re: Animal Crossing), I find it generally boring in concept when removed from two key elements. One is the creative/directive factor. The former example here (Second Life) uses the creative factor in many ways. You the player are the designer of part of the world. While the paper doll mechanics and interactions are also an attractive feature, the addition of being able to help construct the world is a key to Second Life's success. The Sims on the other hand has a directive factor, where you are not required to create anything beyond the characters (although you can), and instead have the emphasis placed on making sure their daily routines don't wind up setting them on fire.

Home, to the best of my research, gives you neither of these. It's a paper doll system. First imagine an RPG, then set it in the modern day. Give the main character your face. Give him or her your clothes, your desired statistics, and set them up a nice house. Remove combat and exploration from the game. Remove creative/directive implements. Remove plot progression, storyline, and character development of any kind. Remove quests, events, and the acquisition of gold, items, and other such paraphernalia.

To me, that sounds utterly unappealing.

Now, even if we take customising your character and living space to be directive, it is still in only a minor fashion, and it still lacks all the other features. One may propose that even the minor inclusion of directive capabilities is worthwhile because the game is free. However, if someone offered you a coke with 80% of the taste missing, would it still make sense to drink it because there was still 20% of the taste remaining? Would it further make sense to do so if there was a perfectly good coke standing nearby, but it cost you a dollar to purchase?

Granted the financial margin between "free almost nothing" and "$XX.xx/mo something something" is a bit wider than a dollar,  but the point stands. Sony is marketing something of 20% value for free, where you could pay just a bit of money and get something of relatively 100% value. If you haven't caught on: I'm talking about MMORPGs. The things I hate. At least those feature combat, quests, and in general, something worth my time and trouble.
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Takezo
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« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2007, 08:20:47 AM »

See, your critique seems to be based on the merits this system lacks as a playable game. For some reason I was under the impression that it had never been marketed as a 'game' in the first place. I was under the impression that Sony had intended this to be little more than Xbox live with an impressive navigation system. I think that controlling your virtual avatar and having him walk to the 'movie theatre' to watch game trailers/reviews/ broadcasts of matches in multiplayer games, and such is much more involved/creative than simply turning a page. It's a clever feature, not a fully developed or realized game. I find it both laudable and completely exhausting that you'd develop such a stern opinion over a browser menu, but we can't make sense of everything.
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Ashton
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« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2007, 08:48:27 AM »

I could take your argument, change a few words, and apply it to any number of different things and it would still work. "They could have us pay a bit and we could have something better!" Okay, you could say that for any game, program, computer application, anything. So, really, all you're trying to rationalize is your biased and retarded hate on for Sony, because I could just as easily say "Yeah, Nintendo could have us pay like a dime a month and have an online plan that doesn't suck shit."
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Takezo
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« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2007, 09:11:57 AM »

But the Wii is sort of cool and hippish, it matches my apple products!
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Hidoshi
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« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2007, 10:20:25 AM »

Regardless of whether or not it was ever marketed as a game is besides the point. It looks like a game, is clearly based on gaming principles, and is for a gaming console. Therefore while it may not be a game, it is derived from game mechanics by and large. The same goes for any virtual avatar system, but here the system lacks a reason to exist beyond novelty. As novelty, sure it's fine, but I fail to see why such a thing should be praised when all it really serves to do is create one more step between the user and the content. That's the real item I take issue with.

In regards to your argument Ash, I'm not particularly sure how my previous post can be applied to everything as you say, but on the topic of money as a means to a better product, that isn't my point. Rather, I'm arguing that Home is derived from products that we already pay for, that are better even in premise, and offer us more for a few extra dollars. That is to say, we are getting an actual product, not the shadow of one. As Takezo pointed out, Home is not a game, but it is designed to feel like one, to emulate one, and yet offers none of the actual substance. It is, pretentiously put, just "surface", and should not be lauded as something excellent because it really doesn't have content. It's not even a good premise for service, because as I pointed out earlier, it serves only to get between the user and the content, although under the pretense that it's some sort of adequate vehicle. It's like the web in 3D: People have tried it. It sucks.

To address another part of your point: Yes, I believe money DOES make a difference. That's why XBox Live works properly. Nintendo needs to address this too. Nowhere am I going to argue that Nintendo does not have its head up its ass. While I'm fine with Friend codes, it is only through rote usage that I am. I would love to do away with them, because they make for the exact same problem I have with Home: A division between user and content. So far, XBox Live seems to be the only service where the developers have not had their heads up their asses.
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Ashton
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« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2007, 10:58:48 AM »

No, it doesn't get between the user and content because it's completely optional. Nintendo's online system gets between user and content because friend codes and absurdly complicated connection methods are required. Home doesn't because it's not a required medium for users to access online functions on the PS3.

It's like saying that at a resteraunt that allows you to have cheese on a hamburger, the cheese will cause your enjoyment of the hamburger to be diminished even if you don't order it. That reasoning is completely absurd.
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Takezo
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« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2007, 11:10:27 AM »

Yeah, I'm finding myself siding more and more with Ashton. I hope it's Ashton. :)

I'll agree to settle with you, that no, home isn't the new bastion of gaming innovation or anything but I still stand firmly by the fact that it was never intended to be. This notion of rallying against the COMPLETELY OPTIONAL degree of seperation is ridiculous, maybe instead you should applaud it for providing a simple extra degree of immersion to the gaming experience? It's just as you said, a simple novelty. I mean, is there a part of you that can acknowledge how ridiculous it sounds to rage against an additional feature (that doesn't require you to use it).

What if told you one day: "You know what, I'm going to stop eating at restaurants that have appetizers, all they do is serve to get between me and the meal"

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Hidoshi
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« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2007, 11:30:24 AM »

You win just for quoting Mitch Hedberg. :P
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