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Author Topic: Great pretentious crap sequels.  (Read 10673 times)
Dice
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« on: March 27, 2007, 01:10:42 AM »

Yay!  Dawn of Mana is coming!
On that note, I heard the game is pretty crappy from importers.

One word comes to mind: FUCK.
Have you noticed a trend of sequels of highly acclaimed games getting sequels n the latest generation console only to be...either crappy/standard games?  I realise high expectations are one problem.

You can make this trend with Hollywood too (sorry to go off-topic, think of it as a example rather).  High budget movies, A-grade stars in a film that just sucks?  Black Dahlia, Alexander, You Me & Dupree, etc.

Star Ocean 3 disappointed people because of its story, Grandia 3 was famous for 15 minutes,  Chrono Cross was shit on all over, and Xenosaga.... you get the idea.

I know some of my points are EASILY debate-able, but try to take it for what is worth.
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2007, 01:23:07 AM »

It sounds like DoM is close to being the worst (worst probably going to Shining Force Neo). Chrono Cross is a controversial title, but by no means is it a genuinely bad game, SO3's arguably better than SO2 despite the stupid story (I had more fun with it anyway), Xenosaga wound up being good in the end (and wasn't really a sequel/prequel to Xenosaga, although it was more connected than most FF and general RPG sequels are), and... Can't comment on Grandia III. But I hear the game was fine and fun until disc 2, and GameArts churns out horrible cliched stories anyways.

A lot of times for games, it seems like the first sequel will be good and improve on mechanics from the prequel, but can go downhill from there. I'm not really citing it as a rule of course, and sometimes that first sequel just completely blows. You can draw examples to both from the same company, Capcom: Mega Man 2 for the former and DMC2 for the latter.
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2007, 01:23:17 AM »

I do agree overall and see your point, though that is a matter of opinion. I do find the #2 to be a bit of a magic number, though its used more on lesser known series.

Grandia II is an excellent sequel in my opinion, and games such as Digital Devil Saga 2 greatly improved from the first, and I still think Suikoden II is the best Suikoden of them all. Dark Cloud 2 is also a lot better than the first.

There is also times where sequels just piss on the franchises name forever.

One prime example: The dreadful Alundra 2.

Just what the hell happened? I really loved the first game, and the second game completely destroyed the reputation of the first. I was stupid enough to get it because of the name.

Sequels is an iffy thing for sure. It can take the series to a whole new level or just screw up, and forget what made the original game so great.
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2007, 04:17:42 AM »

Just judging from legend of mana here as I haven't played dawn.

 The mana series seems a bit different in regards to sequels in general. What people want is pretty simple and it'd be simple to give it to them. But they don't want to just ride on the coattails of secret of mana and SD3. They want to be innovative. Noble enough goal, but there's just two problems here.

One is they aren't very good at it.

Secondly people don't want innovation. Not in a sequel at least. Slow evolution over time maybe, but nothing drastic. As it's the most recent game I played and fits the example perfectly, I'll use The Legend of Zelda:Twilight Princess. I knew exactly what I was getting with it. Sure, It's got the cool wolf dilly. And some of the old tools were given some new flare. But at it's core it's very much a zelda game. If i bought a zelda game and it WASN'T a zelda game I think I'd feel pretty jipped. This goes for just about any series. There's exceptions to the rule, but these are when a series is dying and both the players and developers KNOW it(Hi there Resident Evil)

This could easily be considered a fault with the gaming comunity, not really demanding or wanting more from a series until they're sick of what they have. I feel rather odd saying I don't want originality in a sequel as I know I should. Yet I don't.

On the other hand, maybe there shouldn't be lots of originality in sequels, but lots more original, new games. The standard zeldas and fire emblems to get my fix on that front, but more new experience with original games like shadow of the collosus or Okami(A game actually on my backlog that I should get off my ass and play. Or get on my ass and play...Whatever :P )
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2007, 05:09:17 AM »

You're right about the originality, I think. Thing is, I don't mind just getting more of the same... If that's the only source for that type of experience. If there were more Zelda-like action RPGs like the old Mana games, then it really wouldn't be a big deal what happened with the Mana series. In fact, that was how it was in the 16-bit generation and to a lesser degree the 32-bit. But now those games have more or less dried up, and apparently they don't really give a damn and will just keep fucking around.

Edit: Admittedly, that also means it was done sufficiently in the 16-bit era. However, where are the games more along the lines of OoT's formula but RPG-fied?
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2007, 09:53:52 AM »

Shining Force and Phantasy Star were once my favorite titles...  They are now not.  Due to shitty, shitty games being made.  PSO, PSU, SF Neo...  Compare all this crap to the original titles and they make the series shit beyond shit.

Maybe one day our cherished game companies will be decent again.  :P
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2007, 10:46:06 AM »

Valis X.

Those crappy games don't seem so crappy now do they?
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2007, 11:07:07 AM »

I've got to be the only person in the world who prefered Star Ocean 3 over 2. I guess me prefering 3 wasn't a hard feat though, I simply hated Star Ocean 2 :) .

When it comes down to it though, Star Ocean 3 and 2 are actually rather different from each other. So I suppose it makes sense that for the folk who loved 2, they wouldn't like 3 that much.
(And in my case, a person who hated 2 would end up loving 3.)
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2007, 01:10:44 PM »

Quote from: "Dice"
Yay!  Dawn of Mana is coming!
On that note, I heard the game is pretty crappy from importers.

One word comes to mind: FUCK.
Have you noticed a trend of sequels of highly acclaimed games getting sequels n the latest generation console only to be...either crappy/standard games?  I realise high expectations are one problem.

You can make this trend with Hollywood too (sorry to go off-topic, think of it as a example rather).  High budget movies, A-grade stars in a film that just sucks?  Black Dahlia, Alexander, You Me & Dupree, etc.

Star Ocean 3 disappointed people because of its story, Grandia 3 was famous for 15 minutes,  Chrono Cross was shit on all over, and Xenosaga.... you get the idea.

I know some of my points are EASILY debate-able, but try to take it for what is worth.


You know, it may not matter either way but GameSpot gave this game a perfect 10, and over the whole lifespan of GS's video game journalism, they have only given out 5 perfects. One of the others being Ocarina Of Time. It's a huge call and a strange one at that, I should really give that review another read sometime, was it the fact that it wasn't neccesarily a "true" sequel in terms of theme and plot? Or was it also to do with the game design aswell?

As for Raze and your huge post, I must say I totally agree. Alot of developers rely too much on change, sometimes it's alot better to keep that consistency, but have a certain level of evolution. Keeping a formular doesn't mean it's going to be a carbon copy to it's predecessor, it just keeps the sequel in order, and retains the famliarity and consistency whilst implementing something fresh and new for the player. Sometimes change is great also, so long as it's not a premature "fling" subdued from the developer's initial ideas in the process of it's creation.
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Dice
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2007, 02:11:33 PM »

Chrono Cross....err.  I guess since it take splace in the same world and still kinda touches on elements from Trigger...its a sequel.  Something like The Tales of series or Final Fantasy (new world, aside a moogle and a spell name carrief over) is more like 'another game in the "series" '.

*shrug*

I like the argument raised by Raze and the fact the "2" is a magic number.
Still, I kinda like it when sequels go outside the box.  I'm a big fan of Chrono Cross, Legend of Mana, and Saga Frontier II. :P
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2007, 02:44:19 PM »

Quote from: "Raze"
Secondly people don't want innovation. Not in a sequel at least. Slow evolution over time maybe, but nothing drastic. As it's the most recent game I played and fits the example perfectly, I'll use The Legend of Zelda:Twilight Princess. I knew exactly what I was getting with it. Sure, It's got the cool wolf dilly. And some of the old tools were given some new flare. But at it's core it's very much a zelda game. If i bought a zelda game and it WASN'T a zelda game I think I'd feel pretty jipped. This goes for just about any series. There's exceptions to the rule, but these are when a series is dying and both the players and developers KNOW it(Hi there Resident Evil)


For the most part, I totally agree. Why do developers make a sequel to a game if they are going to drastically alter the original premise of the game? If you want to make something different, start a new franchise, don't just change an old one.

Of course, I'm no fool. I realize they have to name the game after an already recognized series or less people would buy it. Still, each series has its own set of expectations, and often, when you completely change a  sequel people are expecting something else and won't like it.

A great example of this is Legend of Zelda 2 on the NES. A fine game in its own right (maybe that's arguable) but hated by people because it wasn't like the first Zelda. I suspect people would regard the game much more highly if it wasn't lumped in with the Zelda series at all. In fact, just for fun, compare Gamefaqs review scores for Zelda 2 and Battle of Olympus on the NES - both of which are VERY similar games and have many of the same flaws.
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« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2007, 04:20:07 PM »

Quote
Why do developers make a sequel to a game if they are going to drastically alter the original premise of the game?


Because if the first game is a success, they can mix up the formula and at the same time gain greater security because of the franchises name. It's sad really. I'm not against change(at least in most cases)....wait, I take that back. I AM against change. Huh.

But retaining the overall feel for the first game when making the second may backfire as well. A good example is that a enjoyed the first Disgaea and looked forward to a sequel but when I got it I felt pretty bored by it quickly because it felt like they just recycled the first game and gave it a little spin. Then again, that may be a bad example.

I think the biggest problem for developers is knowing when to give up a series. I feel like nowadays, most developers just milk their franchises until the shrivel up and die(Megaman) and give out game after game just trying to get one more drop out of it(Every Final Fantasy VII related movie/game there is and is going to be. Seriously, just leave it in peace!).
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« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2007, 05:07:41 PM »

Quote from: "Crown Clown"
But retaining the overall feel for the first game when making the second may backfire as well. A good example is that a enjoyed the first Disgaea and looked forward to a sequel but when I got it I felt pretty bored by it quickly because it felt like they just recycled the first game and gave it a little spin. Then again, that may be a bad example.

I think the biggest problem for developers is knowing when to give up a series. I feel like nowadays, most developers just milk their franchises until the shrivel up and die(Megaman) and give out game after game just trying to get one more drop out of it(Every Final Fantasy VII related movie/game there is and is going to be. Seriously, just leave it in peace!).


Yeah, Capcom does the opposite of changing the game play for a sequel. They just make the same game over and over. Megaman isn't the only franchise of theirs that does this - Street Fighter, Ghosts & Goblins (literally, many of these games have the same damn levels), and (to a lesser extent, but still annoying) 194X. They are a sequel factory and often it shows in the quality of their games. I don't care about innovation between sequels, but I want to at least be able to recognize that I'm playing a different game.
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« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2007, 07:02:21 PM »

Quote from: "Leyviur"
Valis X.

Those crappy games don't seem so crappy now do they?


Wait a second, is that X similar to the one in Megaman X, or did they actually make ten of those fuckers? :P
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« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2007, 09:08:31 PM »

That's X as in XXX.
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