Where did the effeminate male look come from in Japan?

[Lucid]

This is a question I've been wondering for a while. The Japanese have some odd things about them, and this current cultural trend seems to be fairly prominent. I just can't think of any historical or psychological basis for it. I'm somewhat of a newb when it comes to Japanese stuff though so..yeah if anyone else would like to share info, by all means.

[Dincrest]

I looked up bishounen in wikipedia and I'm sure doing searches using the term bishounen may find you more comprehensive information.  

Apparently, there is an art history context presenting males as very beautiful, almost like angels.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishounen

The idea of the "beautiful man" is not exclusive to Japanese culture, though.  In Greek historical culture/mythology, beautiful young boys were desirable.  I believe even Hercules had a golden-locked young boy he spent quality time with.  And I don't think I need to mention glam rock.

[Lucid]

Yeah I know the beautiful man concept is not japan only, however they seem to have taken the gender confusion to a greater level. Even western cultures beautiful man can still appear to be males. The bishonen(thanks for reminding me I forgot that term) are usually very close to a female so much so that many people often think they are actually women.

[Eusis]

I half expect that it has it's origins in Kabuki play or whatever it was where they had men portraying women. Where THAT spawned from, I have no idea - sexism that women can't act? I'm not exactly some Japanese scholar, someone whose better versed in their culture can probably make a good explanation as to why it's apparently more prominent there than elsewhere.

[Dincrest]

...in many cultures, for some doggone reason women were not allowed to act in stage dramas.  In Shakespeare's times, all the womens parts were played by young men and boys.  Yeah, imagine the first showing of Romeo and Juliet...

However in more modern times, androgyny seems to impart an air of mystery and a "huh?" factor.  Whether it's David Bowie, Boy George, or Marilyn Manson.  The whole androgynous male appearing akin to a "beautiful" woman is something that will almost always raise an eyebrow.

Even in ancient Indian art, it was not uncommon for the male Hindu gods (and even some male humans) to be drawn with long hair, lipstick, and adorned with jewels.  It's been suggested that the Japanese art took a cue from that so while the Japanese went ga-ga over the bishounen, Indian art mostly abandoned that in favor of "manly" looking men.  Japanese culture has had a fascination with Indian culture for a long time (and Indian culture is much older), so it's not too far off to suggest that they borrowed a few things here and there.

[V-Dawg]

I believe the whole effeminate look in Japan has a lot to do with the advent  of host clubs in the past decade or so. Anyone interested should give this documentary on google video a watch.

[Lucid]

Oh, that doc was on the documentary channel not long ago. It was quite interesting, but somewhat sad. It was basically prostitutes gathering comfort from each other. Though the male ones(the hosts) seemed to be less interested in the comfort level, than the female ones who sought them out. I also loved how the hosts almost all looked pretty much the same, at least style wise and all. They were sort of like asian gigolos. The even ran around streets coming onto girls.

I was also wondering what masculinity is like in Japan. Maybe that has a part to play in this femme look. Do they have a similar concept of it as here in the west. Here it seems masculinty is known by being powerful and in charge, getting things done. This bishonen shows vulnerability as a desired trait, I've noticed. So could that represent Japanese males in regards to masculinity in someway? Like in that doc, the girls who were hanging out with hosts seemed to thrive on a perception of vulnerability from their companions.

[Redeemed]

However in more modern times, androgyny seems to impart an air of mystery and a "huh?" factor.  Whether it's David Bowie, Boy George, or Marilyn Manson.  The whole androgynous male appearing akin to a "beautiful" woman is something that will almost always raise an eyebrow.

Speaking of androgyny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PPWDglTboI

[Ramza]

Redeemed...

!!!!!!!!! OLD GREGG !!!!!!!!!!!!! I try to make everyone watch that. Easily the best character to come out of sketch comedy in years.

Anyway, I read a great article in a GLBT scholarly journal called "The Asian Man's Penis." Basically, they argued that the stereotype that Asian men have smaller penises is now well accepted...thus, Asian men are better off finding their identity in something other than traditional masculinity.

Honestly, other than a pygmy tribe, Asian people (male and female) are known to be smaller in pretty much every respect, especially height. This "diminutive" status may make it seem that petite, small, feminine, is naturally beautiful ::: FOR BOTH GENDERS!

Now, I'm not saying that's HOW IT IS, or that I believe that, it's just some speculation.

Also -- in terms of anime. I just want to say that an anime version of a buff guy looks 1) ugly and 2) stupid. I can see a real-life muscular man and say "yeah he looks cool." But an anime muscle-man looks stupid. The anime character design seems to lend itself to bishounen/bishoujo stuff.

Ramza

[Alisha]

i always thought it was an attempt to appeal to females. i mean i dont think ive ever seen a buff male in shoujo media.

[Prime Mover]

The fact is, modern western culture (specifically american culture), has an unusually limited view of gender. MOST cultures in the world, and throughout history, have had many distinctly defined genders, with their own set of roles, and sexual identity. In western culture, we define them purely by biology: Males and Female. While this is usually the basis for all gendre, most cultures have defined many subsets and crossover genders. We're actually kinda unique in this regard.

So it's actually not that surprising that we would find things, such as Bishonen, to be a little unique. Japan is essentially a very different culture who has been trying, desperately, for the past 150 years, to integrate itself into European culture. So, in some ways, modern Japanese culture has a lot of the same cultural identity issues we have... but there's still a lot of cultural history that's very different from ours, and that doesn't just go away over night. I don't know how gender identity was made up in, say, Tokagawa-era Japan, but it was probably very different from the western view at that time.

[Ryos]

Oh darn, looks like Wikipedia beat me to the point I was going to raise.  While I doubt it was the first instance of the concept of the beautiful man as it were in the Japanese culture, The Tale of Genji was an ancient example of what has remained an important aesthetic.  

I certainly can't recall a western hero with the same sort of emotional quandaries Genji went through time and again, at any rate.  While granted I don't exactly read any romance novels, I would think that western romance novels tend to have fairly buff males as their epitome of the desirable man - not quite Rambo but strong enough that their sense of masculinity is never in doubt.

In any case, since the effeminate male has been a staple of Japanese culture (whether borrowed or not), it would be difficult at best to diagnose exactly when it first appeared, though my suspicion is that it must have been around before The Tale of Genji and possibly before the introduction of writing.

[Sensei Phoenix]

In Japan, if we go back to the days of the Samurai, the retainers to the landed aristocracy, we see that manliness was the gender norm for men at that time. However, over the years, as Japan experienced its 250+ years of internal tranquility (relatively speaking) under the Shogunate, the role of the Samurai changed, even though his status did not. So this idea of the idealistic male figure, the samurai, was now being applied to bureaucrats and scholars, and "men of repose" rather than to rough-and-tumble warriors. These men often times couldn't swing a sword to save their lives, although they wore them, but were more refined, hygenic, and less muscular.

The bishounen probably grew out of this more recent (1800s on) model of the samurai as effete and refined combined with the traditional ideals of the samurai as being honorable and stolid. At last that's the vibe I got from my readings of the subject in college.

[Lard]

Redeemed...

!!!!!!!!! OLD GREGG !!!!!!!!!!!!! I try to make everyone watch that. Easily the best character to come out of sketch comedy in years.

Ever drink Bailey's out of a shoe?