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Author Topic: FFT PSP slowdown "not that bad," says S-E  (Read 8861 times)
everluck
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« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2007, 02:33:03 AM »

Wait- I was under the impression a third party ported the game?
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Eusis
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« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2007, 02:34:59 AM »

Quote from: "everluck"
Wait- I was under the impression a third party ported the game?

SE keeps going to them (Tose) for the ports despite previous ones being shoddy compared to other ports, and they might very well be forcing them to churn them out far too quickly. Either way, SE's fucked up if you ask me.

I'd like to think it's being rushed, personally. I doubt ports are something SE seriously wants to give the proper time, and games like Rocket Slime have no issues running whatsoever that I can discern.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2007, 02:43:30 AM »

Quote from: "Eusis"
Quote from: "everluck"
Wait- I was under the impression a third party ported the game?

SE keeps going to them (Tose) for the ports despite previous ones being shoddy compared to other ports, and they might very well be forcing them to churn them out far too quickly. Either way, SE's fucked up if you ask me.


Did Tose do FF3? At least from a technical perspective, the game seems absolutely perfect in every way... well... I have yet to play a DS game that didn't seem polished.
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Eusis
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« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2007, 02:46:33 AM »

No, Matrix something did, same guys that handled DQV's remake for the PS2 and the Alundra games. Even if Tose did it though, they're much better from what I've seen when it's something freshly developed, not ported. I think they did DQM:Joker too.

Edit: And for my last post, ports =/= remakes. IV-VI will be ported ASAP, and with just enough extras to entice people, but when they want to actually remake the game, they get a lot more serious. III and IV both have as much of the original crew back as possible, and fill up the holes with other good talent they have.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2007, 02:51:00 AM »

Okay, there are a few things that I'm not understanding. How is a sprite going to be larger than a 3D model combined with the associated texture?

Anyway, I don't THINK that Odin Sphere should have much of a problem with a memory bottleneck. On any given area, you're going to be facing maybe three different kinds of enemies, and not necessarily all at once. You'll notice how enemies come in waves, and waves tend to be comprised of similar enemies. So, no, at any given moment, you shouldn't have too many art resources loaded in memory at once.

Also, with the enemies that apparently have some light source which causes slowdown -- I never got that far to encounter them -- the slowdown only occurs once they get on screen. If it was because of memory, wouldn't it be a more consistent slowdown as soon as they were placed in the level? likewise,  it doesn't seem to be all instances of various lighting effects doing it, which would point more at a shoddinly written shader effect or something.

Memory issue or processor issue, though, isn't really the point. If you have a particular shader or lighting effect and it's causing slowdown on a noticable level, rewrite it so that it works better, or just take it out. On a console and without user-controlled performance settings, sacrificing performance for graphics isn't really acceptable

---edit---

Anyway, with the FFIV, VI, and CT ports, I'm almost positive those were just emulated, with very little reprogramming.
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« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2007, 03:43:27 AM »

Okay, here's how it is, as simply as I can explain it according to my limited knowledge of graphics programming:

Let's say a sprite has a value of 1. A model has a base value of 4. At the base value, yes, a model is larger. But you see, each individual sprite has its own value, whereas the model has everything preloaded into it. Now let's say that a basic character needs 6 different sprites to properly animate it (which is bullshit, but bear with me). In this case you would have 6 different sprites, each with a value of 1 associated with said character. So in the end the character's complete value becomes a total of 6, or 1,1,1,1,1,1, each having to be called up separately and instantaneously, whereas the model with a value of 4 is loaded up already and can already do everything it's programmed to do within a specified amount of time.As mentioned before, the PS2 doesn't have enough RAM to use to read the sheer volume for highly complex sprites where the memory allocation becomes even larger.
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Zorbfish
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« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2007, 12:51:04 PM »

The most basic 3D model is simply a collection of positional and textural vertices. The positional data gives the model its shape and the textural data tells the GPU (the hardware processor that draws to the screen) how to map a texture onto the model. Animations are not a part of a model.

The reason 2D tends to be at a disadvantage is because it does take more resources. While a model can animate by moving its positional data, individual 2D sprites must be created and flipped in sequence to create similar movement.

While I have not worked with a PS2 I do know that most hardware no longer supports 2D (video card venders like NVIDIA and ATI caused this). Instead 2D developers have to fake 2D graphics by drawing 3D "flat" graphics to the screen with sprites textured onto them. Now this process isn't the problem, because 2D with 3D can be done very fast and efficiently.

The problem lies in the textures. Because 2D requires much larger textures (to hold detailed sprites) and the GPU's texture memory (NOT RAM) is usually limited there's less room to sqeeze in 2D sprites. So if there's a really large boss sprites its probably going to cause some slowdown because there's either little room left in texture memory after its loaded in or parts of it have to be continually shifted in and out over the bus.

I think I remember even Legend of Mana having this problem on some of its large bosses so it doesn't suprise me that Odin Sphere has problems; especially considering the particle effects and lighting (which slow down 2D a lot).



As for the whole port issue I think it probably was TOSE. S-E needs the port profits to keep its larger projects like FF13 afloat so the faster they can get them out the better. Tweaking and debugging issues caused by the differences in hardware isn't something S-E needs to worry about because there will always be fanboys/idiots who will buy these remakes (even if they own the originals) regardless of the shoddy quality.
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Tria
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« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2007, 01:04:24 PM »

After playing Spectral Souls, FFT looks like the fastest game on the planet. >.>

Oh, and I've always hated TOSE.
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Morwan
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« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2007, 01:40:41 PM »

Now I'm curious if playing it off a memory stick would fix the loading problems. It wouldn't be enough for me to want to buy the game, but it would be a huge improvement from what the videos look like.

Quote from: "Zorbfish"
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Best first post ever.

EDIT: What other games has TOSE done?
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Ashton
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« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2007, 01:46:28 PM »

Quote from: "Zorbfish"
Long explaination.

Ah, that makes it much clearer for me, thanks. I always did know that 3D models took less resources than 2D, I just didn't have a completely clear idea why.
Quote from: "Morwan"
Now I'm curious if playing it off a memory stick would fix the loading problems. It wouldn't be enough for me to want to buy the game, but it would be a huge improvement from what the videos look like.

No. I'm playing it off the memory stick right now. As I mentioned before, the problem isn't with the PSP's capabilities or resources, it's just that the game was optimized for the system poorly.
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Tria
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« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2007, 02:42:44 PM »

Other ports (and remakes) that TOSE has done:

Final Fantasy Chronicles PS1 (Both Chrono Trigger and FFIV)
Final Fantasy Anthology PS1 (FFVI and FFV)
Final Fantasy Origins PS1 (FFI, FFII)
FF I+II: Dawn of Souls GBA
FFIV Advance
FFV Advance
FFVI Advance
Valkyrie Profile: Lenneth PSP

They have developed games before.  And some of their games have actually been pretty good.  A few Dragon Quest spinoffs (Rocket Slime, Monsters, and Monsters: Joker), and Super Princess Peach, and a bunch of  games I've never played.

But their ports haven't been very...Good, per say.  FFV and VI were about the only good ports of their's I've played.
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Ashton
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« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2007, 02:52:53 PM »

VP: Lenneth was fine.
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Eusis
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« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2007, 04:46:26 PM »

Quote from: "Leyviur"
VP: Lenneth was fine.

As fine as FFV and VI were on the PSX. I'd cite CT, but I think that was the most obnoxious of them for some reason.
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John
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« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2007, 12:12:43 AM »

I'm going to go with VP: Lenneth was fine, as well.
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Tria
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« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2007, 03:13:08 AM »

VP: Lenneth was filled with far more load times and bugs than it needed to be, and was really frustrating to play some times.  The PS1 FFV and FFVI were very annoying in terms of load times, as well.  And definitely CT.  

But anyways, FFV and FFVI Advance have been the only decent ports from TOSE I've played.  It's sorta sad that Square puts so much faith in them, when TOSE has put out such criticized crap that other people (including Square themselves) could do better.
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