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Author Topic: GameIndustry.biz writer rips into Manhunt 2  (Read 7965 times)
Ashton
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« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2007, 08:48:30 AM »

Let's make child porn and racist parades by the KKK perfectly acceptable then! I mean, why stop at just a video game? It's a matter of everyone's right for free speech, damn it! Let everyone say and do whatever the hell they want! It's a free country(supposedly)!

This isn't a debate about art. It's not a debate about free speech. It's not even a debate about ambulance chasers. It's about kicking down those who might give the rest of us a bad name. Like race, gender, and age, gaming also carries with it significant social stigma at certain times and in certain places. We really don't need bullshit like this making us look like evil assholes living in our parents' basements fantasizing about ripping off women's titties and wearing them as hats or whatever the fuck Manhunt 2 has.

Censorship? Free rights? Who gives half a dog's shit? This is about the industry and the community as a whole. No one company has enough privelege to stir up shit and get it on everyone else associated with them, directly or not. Sure, you can toss around pretty words like 'closed minded' and 'idiots' but at the end of the day, morons are still making up a majority of America, and stuff like this will only add to their list of reasons to hate gamers and anyone associated with them. ("Some Asian guy shot up Virginia Tech? Damn those chinkies!" "A guy who played video games shot someone? I KNEW video games were evil!") I don't need more fuckers giving me a dirty look just because I mention I play games off handedly. If stifling one company's so called 'free speech' is what it takes, then so be it. If they have to lose money on game after banned game because we don't want to get painted by the same negative brush that they're trying so hard to get, then so be it.

The ends justifies the means.
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Lard
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« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2007, 09:22:56 AM »

No, it doesn't.

And you're a coward for saying so.
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Ashton
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« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2007, 09:27:50 AM »

Prove it.

Oh right, you can't. You only have silly one liners.
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Lard
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« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2007, 09:49:19 AM »

Nothing as deep as "who gives half a dog's shit", no.
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Ashton
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« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2007, 09:54:00 AM »

Then I guess my point stands and yours -- wait, you had no point.
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« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2007, 09:55:36 AM »

I'm pretty sure I've told you two assholes before to keep the personal shit out of your posts directed at each other.  I don't like repeating things twice.  I won't repeat it three times.  If you can't debate without going LOL COWARD, then do the community at large a favor and shut the fuck up.
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« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2007, 10:37:22 AM »

Lard, so far you haven't made much of any kind of argument. You've stated what you believe, and that you think your view is correct, however the opposing views you've childishly labeled, and just lambasted as ignorant or whatever else without providing a why or counterpoint. It's been 'You're wrong I'm right". So why bother joining the discussion if you consider your opinion the penultimate one? If you have an opinion, cool, but after you've stated it you can continue a thoughtful argument or be done with it. Instead you've chosen to throw pedantic one liners at people that have no relevance to the discussion at hand. Calling someone a coward doesn't give any insight into anything here, and makes you just seem insecure about your own opinion. These boards have a reputation for carrying more mature conversation(usually), so if you can't at least try to be cool with that then maybe you'd be happier somewhere else like gamefaqs or 4chan.
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« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2007, 11:00:13 AM »

Quote from: "Lucid"
Lard, so far you haven't made much of any kind of argument. You've stated what you believe, and that you think your view is correct, however the opposing views you've childishly labeled, and just lambasted as ignorant or whatever else without providing a why or counterpoint. It's been 'You're wrong I'm right". So why bother joining the discussion if you consider your opinion the penultimate one? If you have an opinion, cool, but after you've stated it you can continue a thoughtful argument or be done with it. Instead you've chosen to throw pedantic one liners at people that have no relevance to the discussion at hand. Calling someone a coward doesn't give any insight into anything here, and makes you just seem insecure about your own opinion. These boards have a reputation for carrying more mature conversation(usually), so if you can't at least try to be cool with that then maybe you'd be happier somewhere else like gamefaqs or 4chan.


I've made an argument the best I could

Or at least tried to counter Eusis' argument that censorship is okay sometimes...(because he's the only one who's even tried to actually have a conversation without just dismissing the topic at hand)

And been met with:

 "I'm not interested in it, so it doesn't matter if it's banned."

"It's not a work of art, so it should be banned"

"Who gives half a dog's shit?"

I'm not taking all the blame here. (Nor am I blameless)
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« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2007, 11:01:30 AM »

Why am I reminded of that Simpsons episode where Marge successfully crusades against Itchy and Scratchy but when the advocacy groups want her on board to ban Michaelangelo's David from making a tour stop in Springfield, she declines saying "I think everyone should see Michaelangelo's David."  Then there's a huge argument about what is art and how Marge praises Michaelangelo's David yet demonizes Itchy and Scratchy.  

That Simpsons reference is more of a commentary than anything else.  Still, censorship is a complex issue because while many of us would like each "thing" taken on a case by case basis, it will confuse the hell out of legislators who want a more simplistic one-size-fits-all credo with regards to it.  

One thing I see in this thread is that while many of us do not want to see censorship in our media (be it music, movies, gaming, etc.) and/or want to showcase video games in a less immature light, using games like Manhunt 2 as bastions is probably NOT going to strengthen our case any.

As for the banning in England, it is what it is.  I do not know enough about their laws to make an approving, demonizing, or neutral judgment call one way or another.  And the simple fact that this banning is causing such an uproar is just the kind of free publicity that Rockstar thrives on.  Rockstar does what I deem "shallow shock" which is shock simply for the sake of shock.  For all we know, everything surrounding Rockstar could be a whole bunch of elaborately engineered publicity stunts.  (That's obviously taking a silly extreme viewpoint, but still...)

TANGENT: Meh, I just think Rockstar Games is pandering to the lowest common degenerate denominator in much the same way that many Japanese developers do with their often degenerate hentai games.  Seriously, the stuff you find in many of those games is some of the sickest, most twisted filth shit in gaming.  And there are more H-games than most anything else in Japan, if I'm not mistaken.
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« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2007, 11:07:47 AM »

Quote from: "Dincrest"

Meh, I just think Rockstar Games is pandering to the lowest common degenerate denominator in much the same way that many Japanese developers do with their often degenerate hentai games.  Seriously, the stuff you find in many of those games is some of the sickest, most twisted filth shit in gaming.  And there are more H-games than most anything else in Japan, if I'm not mistaken.  


The Simpsons reference is a good one actually.

The point I've been trying to make all along is that it's not an either/or case.

You either have free speech or you don't. It's not incremental. The only cases where it *is* incremental is when it's being taken away.

And, honestly, comparing child porn to a video game is like calling someone a nazi. It's old, lame and misses the point entirely.
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« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2007, 11:12:39 AM »

Quote from: "Lard"
Bullshit

It's funny how you've ignored all but the least important of lines of the all the arguments involved. Looking through all the posts, the only one here dimissing the topic at hand is you, going on tangents about how people here 'make you sad' or are 'cowards.' Sorry, all the blame lies with you, since you're the initial reason this topic derailed in the first place. Everyone's countered every single one of your points and when you couldn't counter theirs, you opted to make thinly veiled insults.

Quote from: "Lard"
The point I've been trying to make all along is that it's not an either/or case.

Okay, now we can have a debate. My response is that the world isn't black and white like you apparently think it is. THere's a whole mess of gray areas in EVERYTHING. Even the smallest things have gray areas. Sometimes you just have to make a sacrifice for the greater good. This is one of those times.

Quote from: "Lard"
You either have free speech or you don't. It's not incremental. The only cases where it *is* incremental is when it's being taken away.

So you're saying it should be legal to say, scream "FIRE!" in a crowded building, thereby causing a panic? Free speech is relative; we don't need people abusing "Constitutional rights."

Quote from: "Lard"
And, honestly, comparing child porn to a video game is like calling someone a nazi. It's old, lame and misses the point entirely.

Actually, it's quite effective. You're going on about free speech, I'm taking your ideal to the next level. It's funny how incremental free speech can get. Like you said, give an inch, take a mile.
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« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2007, 11:13:17 AM »

As I edited into my prior post, in a perfect world, regarding censorship, each "thing" would be taken on a case by case basis.  However, that would confuse the hell out of legislators who want a more simple one-size-fits-all blanket.  

It doesn't work, because of various individual and cultural differences of what should and shouldn't be acceptable.  What flies in New York City is very different from what flies in the midwestern Bible belt.  And in the case of Manhunt 2, it contains material that doesn't fly in England and got banned.  This whole case is what it is and I'm sure Rockstar will still reap the monetary benefits from this publicity.  Forbidden fruit draws attention like moths to a flame.

The whole issue regarding censorship on all levels (personal, academic, political, media, whatever else) is a complex one and though the letter of the law seems more black or white, the reality is an enormous grey area.
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« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2007, 11:24:42 AM »

Quote from: "Leyviur"

Quote from: "Lard"
The point I've been trying to make all along is that it's not an either/or case.

Okay, now we can have a debate. My response is that the world isn't black and white like you apparently think it is. THere's a whole mess of gray areas in EVERYTHING. Even the smallest things have gray areas. Sometimes you just have to make a sacrifice for the greater good. This is one of those times.


Eusis made the same argument, and while I understand the point, this is *not* a time where things should be sacrificed.

Once Thompson and his ilk see that (or think that) they wield some power over the ESRB, they're going to run screaming over anything they don't like and scrutinising every single game that comes out. (And I *have* been saying this since the first page)

This is partially a fight about Manhunt, and it's partly about not letting anybody get a foot in the door regarding the ESRB. That's why it's more black and white than you (and others) think.

Quote from: "Lard"
And, honestly, comparing child porn to a video game is like calling someone a nazi. It's old, lame and misses the point entirely.

Actually, it's quite effective. You're going on about free speech, I'm taking your ideal to the next level. It's funny how incremental free speech can get. Like you said, give an inch, take a mile.[/quote]

It's a completely different situation. It's

A) abusing a child - that's not a speech issue at all. You're getting into rape laws, which is a different kettle of fish altogether.

B) Manhunt isn't being marketed to/nor does it feature children (as far as I know) It's made for adults by adults, featuring adults.
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« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2007, 11:32:36 AM »

Dude, it doesn't matter if this thing will or will not be released. Jack Thompson and his ambulance chasing nimrod pals are gonna take credit ANYWAY. When Eibler was fired from TT? Yep, JT took credit. When a game bill seemingly passed? He sent a press release to everyone he ever sent an email to. It doesn't matter anymore because he'll undoubtedly jump on it even if it's released in the end and say "See? I delayed it! We're having an effect!" Most people are wisened up to his horseshit by now and don't even listen to his senile spiels.

The potential damage that might be caused by the game releasing is greater than the potential damage that the game not releasing might cause. Maybe you're right in that there is no positive effect in keeping it under the rug, and maybe you're not, but even then we're still going to have to choose the lesser of two evils. In this case, it's not letting Rockstar ruin it for all of us.

Besides that, using JT and his ilk as a gauge is a bad move for ANY argument, since he's now a complete laughingstock.

Quote from: "Lard"
A) abusing a child - that's not a speech issue at all. You're getting into rape laws, which is a different kettle of fish altogether.

What if the child agreed to it? Or maybe some asshole is gonna say "it's artistic nudity! FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS YEAAHHHHH!"
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« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2007, 12:14:08 PM »

Quote from: "Leyviur"
The potential damage that might be caused by the game releasing is greater than the potential damage that the game not releasing might cause. Maybe you're right in that there is no positive effect in keeping it under the rug, and maybe you're not, but even then we're still going to have to choose the lesser of two evils. In this case, it's not letting Rockstar ruin it for all of us.


You and Eusis have made the same point - and I understand what you're saying. In the short term, we may be better off. I think in the long run, that no positive effect will come out of it.

Quote from: "Leyviur"
Besides that, using JT and his ilk as a gauge is a bad move for ANY argument, since he's now a complete laughingstock.


Well, that's a fair point - since even Fox News can see through him now. (Or was it MSNBC?)

Quote from: "Lard"
A) abusing a child - that's not a speech issue at all. You're getting into rape laws, which is a different kettle of fish altogether.

What if the child agreed to it? Or maybe some asshole is gonna say "it's artistic nudity! FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS YEAAHHHHH!"[/quote]

Still age of consent laws to deal with.
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