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Author Topic: if it's not broken dont fix it...  (Read 17414 times)
Eusis
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« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2007, 02:13:35 AM »

Quote from: "Leyviur"
Quote from: "MeshGearFox"
Rogue Galaxy's... skill board thing, on the other hand, has you fitting random junk you find into slots to unlock skills. The hell? "I found a tin can, some lipstick, and a pair of earrings! NOW I CAN SPEAK DANISH!"

Best post ever.

Ditto.

Nice post to reach 666 by the way.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2007, 07:35:08 PM »

Well "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a hell of a lot better slogan than the one that my TV station uses...

"If it's broke... DON'T FIX IT!"
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« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2007, 09:14:26 PM »

Quote from: "Dincrest"
Don't get me wrong, I do respect the Dragon Quest titles and have enjoyed some of the games.  One thing I like is that it retains the traditional turn-based gameplay.  Not broken and doesn't need fixing.  Still, there will be people out there who think the series is stagnating because it hasn't "evolved" from the "archaic" turn-based structure.  

And though FF has been experimenting with more realtime and semi-realtime combat systems (i.e. FF12), it's going back to the tried and true ATB for FF13 (or so has been reported.)


Oh, only in terms of the battle system. I see. My mistake and very much agreed.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2007, 09:38:06 PM »

You know, one genre that's really embodied the "if it ain't broken don't try to fix it" is the Japanese visual novel.  The graphic style (2D anime portraits over flat backdrops), the gameplay (read lots of text until it's time to make a choice), and the general interface have pretty much been the same from then until now.  I'm not sure I can foresee the format and interface of those games changing at all.  All 2D, never adopted polygons.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2007, 09:51:25 PM »

Visual novels also don't really qualify as games.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2007, 10:10:43 PM »

Sure they do.  They just have limited gameplay.  In much the same way, Choose Your Own Adventure books are GAMEbooks, even if their interface isn't as complex as other gamebooks like Fighting Fantasy.
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« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2007, 12:18:09 AM »

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"
Visual novels also don't really qualify as games.
Some of the very first games were text based adventures on computers. So yes, they are games.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2007, 03:08:24 AM »

Visual novels and text adventures are... quite different. Not just quite different. Completely different.

Text adventures have puzzles. Visual novels don't. Text adventures let you move around freely in the gameworld. Visual novels don't. Text adventures usually aren't completely linear. Visual novels usually ferry you from one seen to the next. Text adventures are primarily interaction. Visual novels are primarily reading story bits, with very little interaction.
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Eusis
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« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2007, 03:13:17 AM »

From what I hear about Visual Novels, it sounds inaccurate for Nintendo to have labelled Hotel Dusk as such, which is undeniably a game. Free roaming and puzzles, saying it's not a game would be preposterous. Visual novels sound like... What? Pick options on what to say do at any given moment? Well, games like Phoenix Wright and Snatcher seem tob e like that, but they really do have puzzles.
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« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2007, 05:47:50 AM »

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"
Visual novels and text adventures are... quite different. Not just quite different. Completely different.

Text adventures have puzzles. Visual novels don't. Text adventures let you move around freely in the gameworld. Visual novels don't. Text adventures usually aren't completely linear. Visual novels usually ferry you from one seen to the next. Text adventures are primarily interaction. Visual novels are primarily reading story bits, with very little interaction.

I've seen Visual Novels that fit everything you've said about Text Adventures. The line between the two is a thin one.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2007, 11:30:36 AM »

Quote
I've seen Visual Novels that fit everything you've said about Text Adventures. The line between the two is a thin one.


It's not thin. They're just mislabled. And in any case, I was refering to the ones that aren't games (The most notable English-produce one is probably Photopia, actually).
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« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2007, 09:42:32 PM »

This rule is fundamentally flawed, sorry. If you keep to close to the philosophy of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", what you wind up doing is creating a decade of stagnate, redundant gameplay. Case-in-point: the Zelda franchise. Although this is somewhat of a gray matter. I can play any 2-D Zelda over and over again, and they can shit out a bullshit "new" version and I'll embrace it with arms wide open.

Twilight Princess, however, earned my scorn. I felt as though despite growing in scale and being an improvement visually from its predecessors and adopting a more "dark" tone, it was ostensibly the same damn 3-D Zelda experience I've been having since Ocarina of Time. Go dawdle with ridiculous tasks, plunge into a dungeon, collect an artifact, fight a boss, rinse, wash, repeat. I've whooped Ganon's ass more times then I care to count now. I'm not asking for them to redefine Zelda as we know it. But it certainly wouldn't hurt to add to the series. Narrative and characterization, for one, would go a long way. Imagine a Zelda installment with some actual narrative. Imagine Zelda evoking emotional responses from Link in the same vein as Mary Jane and Peter Parker in Spider-Man 2.

If not in storytelling, then just expand Link's abilities. We know he's acrobatic, so why not let him perform more impressive feats ala Prince of Persia? It can remain true to the franchise in its core, but branch out uniquely.

The reality is that Role Playing Games are becoming stagnant, a dying genre. People want bang for their buck and the less-then-engaging turn-based combat system only appeals to a niche crowd. When you pour millions of dollars into a game that will be sold on a platform with a limited install base (XBox 360 or PS3) you have to cater to a wider audience then just the expected RPG Fanatic. This is why we've seen traditionally turn-based/strategy series like Shining Force adopt action-RPG elements. They're trying to expand their audience, and who can blame them? This is also what has killed system exclusives. There's simply no way Grand Theft Auto IV could break even if it released for one console or the other. Only by spreading out to every viable install base can they hope to make a profit. It's simply too early in the game to be putting out exclusive blockbusters on either "next gen" (now gen?) console. Price is the barrier for entry.

But I digress.

There's no way to please everyone. Create "the same game" and some die-hard fans champion it. Others, like myself, are turned off and feel like I might as well go back and replay the original. Balance is the key to everything in life, and that's not something easy to achieve.
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Eusis
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« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2007, 11:17:58 PM »

I half agree with the Zelda sentiment. Personally, I think the story bit's the last thing they need to worry about. They already have been putting more focus in recent ones, but it's screwing up the gameplay. I enjoyed WW, and Midna was an entertaining character, but... Come on. The freedom I had in the old ones was great, being able to sequence break and all, and I'd rather have that than a slightly tighter story, especially as little of that /required/ those dungeons to be gone in a specific order, and I didn't even need to use my items in the following dungeon, that at least would have made the strict order necessary. But then I've already gone on about having too much of a story/movie focus in modern games, but as long as it doesn't get in the way of gameplay and is actually entertaining I don't mind.

What I think Zelda really needs (and this can tie in with the PoP example) is to just mix things up again. The series has been about exploration and discovering new things... How about breaking how formulamatic and routine the games are getting and just shatter convention? Screw the preliminary 3 dungeons, screw staying only in Hyrule. Majora's Mask would be an example of this really. Phantom Hourglass also seems to be doing that with the whole 'go fuck your conventional controls' deal. As for getting out of Hyrule... I don't necessarily mean games like those that take place in a whole other place like LA, MM, and PH, but rather make one that /does/ take place in Hyrule to some degree... Then I also go to a neighboring country or something, develop the setting some more even if it seems contradictory with my first paragraph. See people outside of the country/region, and have a large world. Zelda 2 was the closest the series got, and officially that was all in Hyrule last I checked. There's also the Flagship games, but their placement in all of this is just screwy.

Man, the action RPG thing has been covered way too many times, though those points are why I think the Wii/DS are better platforms for more original and diverse stuff that's released as a retail product. Though for Shining Force... Well, Sega's just fucking retarded.
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« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2007, 12:20:13 AM »

i understand what you are saying about stagnation but thats not what im talking about my beef is series that make big changes after only one installment(xenosaga1/2,FFX/FFX-2) you dont need to reinvent the wheel until it starts to wear out. also that crap about appealing to a wider audience pisses me off because it often results in making the games worse. not to mention shining tears rips crap from shining force such as Anri/Neige,behemoth/dark dragon
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thesearingstar
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« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2007, 12:35:27 AM »

Well, again, your examples are flawed. Not trying to attack you. Xenosaga was received poorly, and criticized very  ruthlessly over its battle system. As a result, Monolith Soft tried to retune the battle system in Xenosaga Episode II to address fan complaints. You may be one of the few unfortunate souls who actually liked the original battle system, but I'd say it's clear through Monolith's actions that the overwhelming majority of their already niche audience did not.

The same happened with Episode II. The battle system once again held the game back from realizing its potential, which led to III's more classic turn-based combat. Incidentally, that has been the most well-received incarnation of Xenosaga's battle system. It's certainly my favorite. I thought of the entire trilogy III was the most well-rounded in terms of story-telling and gameplay. I actually enjoyed playing it.

Final Fantasy X-2, though a sequel, is a unique take on both Final Fantasy as a series and Final Fantasy X's world/characters. They rebuilt the battle system to accommodate the class costumes that the developers wanted to give the heroine's. I never finished the game. I have quite the reputation for being the FFX/X-2 detractor. Although, in the recent years, I've actually gone back and replayed Final Fantasy X and changed my opinion of it. I have yet to give X-2 the same chance, but I've been told by most people who have played it that it is actually one of the better incarnations of FF combat.

My point is, battle systems are changed in order to accommodate to the type of game they are being designed for accordingly, as well as their popularity. FFX-2's unique style required an equally unique battle system. Xenosaga's big budget development and then poor reception required the most unpopular elements to be redesigned.

It all boils down to money. When you sink tens of thousands of millions of dollar's into developing a game--especially for these big blockbuster PS3 and XBox360 games-- you have to try and gain the largest install base possible to atleast break even, or preferably make a profit. Catering to niche audiences and genre enthusiasts isn't smart business.
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