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Author Topic: if it's not broken dont fix it...  (Read 15660 times)
MeshGearFox
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« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2007, 05:29:49 AM »

[Original post accidentally deleted. Sorry].
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Eusis
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« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2007, 05:37:20 AM »

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"
If you spend three years writing an engine to display really realistic water effects for a real-time strategy game, you have absolutely no business being in the game business.

If it's for a single game or at least just your company that'll use it on, like, 3 games, you have something of a point. But the Unreal Engine and all of id's are licensed out to developers, so they're not simply doing it to make their games look awesome, it's part of their business.

Edit: Holy post appendage, just reading the last line rendered my post nigh pointless.

Edit 2: Alright, thinking about this more...

For better or worse, there's certain expectations from games nowadays, and from the console manufacturers that license this stuff. About every game has some level of voicework nowadays, and if it does it usually gets shoved in. Case in point: DQVIII, MS Saga, and the FFT port that will be out this fall all have/will have voice acting added to them. Admittedly, FFT sounds like it might have been planned to have voice acting in the first place but was just too rushed or whatever. And for console games, even if somehow you develop it all for free, and managed to get a devkit despite not being a major publisher (or alternatively, employees somehow not being paid for their time developing), you still have to cover the costs of producing enough copies of the game and shipping them to stores. You'd have a stronger point for the downloading services, but for a full retail product? Namco's said they have to sell 500,000 copies of each game this generation to break even, so they're insane, blow way more money than they really have to, or things are just too demanding for full retail products on the HD platforms these days.

Of course, the downloadable services for all three might be what the industry really needs. I think Sony's got the best idea there, not capping the potential scale of these games like Microsoft is doing.

Edit 3: Oh Jesus Christ more added to respond to.

Exclusivity - in the sense that manufacturer's pay a publisher/developer to release games ONLY on that console? Yeah, fuck that. Exclusivity because they feel a platform is best suited? I don't think it should be dying out. Let's face it, some games can't be done elsewhere, and porting them all over the place means you have to design it with the weakest possible configuration in mind. Only the Wii has waggle, that /needs/ more exclusive, full blown games that can properly use the setup without worrying about making sure it'll work on other platforms. The PS3 has blu-ray, that's an insane amount of memory and it'd be lame to cut back just because the X360 only has DVD. And the X360... Well, that goes into more indepth workings that aren't blatantly obvious like blu-ray or waggle. Vibration, but pft, that's overrated. Wii has it and PS3 probably will in the end anyway.

Plus I want to have some justification for having specific consoles.
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thesearingstar
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« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2007, 08:53:32 AM »

For starters, I don't appreciate being called an idiot. If you can't engage in intelligent discourse instead of lowering yourself to name calling then you really shouldn't waste your breath here. Whether the notion appeals to you or not, image sells and image is what most companies sink their dollars into. Even if they license the Unreal 3 Engine or an established engine, game development still costs way more these days then it did back in the glory days on PSOne. This is where my arguement of "the ass-backwards industry" comes into play. Despite being a vocal detractor of the Wii, I do feel it is the most viable platform for a developer to work with. If the Wii stopped pushing itself as "new gen" so hard and marketed itself as a standard console as well as a "waggle"console, more developers would be inclined to bring their action-adventure titles to the system. Cheaper development costs = quicker production time, which means you can make more games more frequently at less cost and--duh--make more. I don't see how my $400-$600 dollar console is justified when I spend 3-5 years waiting between each "stellar" game simply because developers are under pressure to make photorealistic graphics, animation, and effects over something stylized. I would rather have the PSOne days return, where companies were shitting out decent-to-great games twice a year, Squaresoft in particular. Not only that, but Konami and Capcom, you know, actually existed

And as far as exclusivity, well, if you eliminate their existence you eliminate the need for their being an XBox or a PS3 -- what can they compete over if they all sport the same library? This is a classic "Sonic vs Mario debate". There can be shared games between the two consoles, but ultimately one has to have a pile of exclusives that draw you to it (Halo 3, Too Human, Mass Effectfor XBox or FFXIII, MGS4, and Uncharted for PS3, etc.). This is the nature of the beast, and unless you find a way to get either Sony or Microsoft to drop out of the race--or better yet, get them in bed together, you aren't going to see the eradication of exclusives because it simply makes no sense.

We're sort of drifting off point here. Back to what I was originally saying - the reason developers don't adhere to the idea that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is because in order to survive in an ever-adapting industry one must change and keep up. While turn-based battle systems made sense ten years ago, they really don't so much anymore. This is one of the fastest growing, evolving industries there are. In the span of my short lifetime we've seen blips and bloops become sickeningly realistic models and such. While dredging up the classic Final Fantasy battle system may sell to the expected, established fanbase, it won't do much to broaden interest in their game. By changing things up and making it more user-friendly for up-and-coming RPG fans, or perhaps even gamers who have never given RPGs a chance you create an opportunity to A. Make more profit/success and B. Help expand the genre's fanbase.

Something that never ceases to surprise me is how single-minded gamers are, as if video games are developed just for them and their interests. As if all the work that goes into developing a game, especially one on XBox 360 or PS3, can be justified by a singular purchase. Obviously this is absurd, and with their already limited install bases developers need to make games as accessible to as many different types as audiences as possible to hope to make a sound profit.
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Sagacious-T
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« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2007, 09:16:28 AM »

Here we go..

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"
Then you're an idiot with no sense of economy or efficiency. the concept that you need to spend a lot of money to make a lot of money doesn't really need to apply to games, for one thing. Free art tools exist. Free compilers exist. The only thing you should be paying for is whatever crap proprietary toolkit the console maker is forcing off on you. Unless you're developing for the PC, in which case you really shouldn't have to spend anything.


So you'd rather Game developers give up the high budget, epic, unbelievable technology and genre pushing games to churn out the SAME SHIT with half assed graphics and gameplay? Sorry, maybe in the fantasy land you came from game's dont cost money, but games cost a shit ton to develop these days. You've probably played with RPGMaker, I get it, but real games are developed differently.

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"

Granted, since you're a professional developer, you're probably going to spend several thousand dollars on Adobe products for some reason. Because that's the SMART thing to do.

Also, I especially like how anymore, a game takes like, five or six years to make, instead of one or two, in spite of the fact that modern dev-teams are usually three times the size of what they used to be.


And these games will be the ones pushing Video Games in general in a direction never seen before. Look at a game like Mass Effect, It's raising the bar to make the most realistic NPCs ever, with facial expressions, dynamic dialogue, and more. It's not just a raw gameplay evolution, other assets of video games have to evolve. Maybe you just want to not give a shit, and play the same 2d games for the rest of your life, but some of us want games to become an immersive, deep experience.

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"

Also, I really don't want to sound like one of those oldschool guys that constantly bitches about games being all visuals and soundstuffs anymore, but a lot of this stuff is excessive. If you spend three years writing an engine to display really realistic water effects for a real-time strategy game, you have absolutely no business being in the game business.

If you want money, make games, and then release them. If you DON'T want money, then spend all of your assets on developing a grass engine, and then maybe release one game per decade.


Game Engines and assets are the bread and butter of creating games. Alot of developer studios share their work with one another if they're working under the same banner. Big studios do it all the time, Ubisoft, Capcom, Microsoft Game Studios, etc.  I could go into this more but I don't feel like it, so I'll just call you ignorant here and move on.

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"

Blah blah blah, Oblivion rant


Oblivion was fine, Bethesda is still using their engine for future games.

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"

Also, the concept of exclusivity needs to die and it's not really helping anyone except the console manufacturers.


Your stupid opinions need to die. Exclusivity has VERY strong advantages.  When you make a multiplatform game, you must (almost all the time) work with the lowest common abilities of both consoles. A game developed for a specific console will not only look better, but play better. Lair and Heavenly Sword are both using the seperate processors of the Cell CPU to control groups of NPCs in their large battles to make them perform in a more dynamic fashion. The Xbox 360 is so flexible that developers are building games on it and then porting it over to PC. You cant just say, HURR EXCLUZIVZ ARE DUMB LETZ PUT DEM ON ALL CONOLEZ.
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D-Rider
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« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2007, 10:40:35 AM »

Check your emotions at the door, people.  It's fucking video games.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2007, 01:32:39 PM »

MeshGear, you really have NO IDEA what you're talking about. I may not be a game producer, but I'm a media producer none-the-less (TV). And money DOES matter. If I have a vision, I have to find some way of executing it. Currently, my station is broke, and can't buy additional software or equipment. I have a number of great commercial ideas involveing CG and camera shots that I simply CAN'T DO! There's only so much "duct taping" I can do to get what I want, until it's simply not possible.

We all build on the visions of other artists and producers in the field. Since I study national commercials, many of my ideas are above and beyond the ability of my little station to be able to produce. Similar, there are some great visionary game designers out there who don't have the equipment/dev team/software out there to carry out their visions.

I'm all for the little game developer coming up with some kind of extrordinary but simple game that doesn't require time/money/staff... but many visionaries have big ideas, and that requires big money.
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eelhouse.net
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2007, 01:40:31 PM »

Quote from: "The Darkrider"
Check your emotions at the door, people.  It's fucking video games.
While I agree that people need to "tone it down", I disagree to your reasoning. It's NOT just video games we're talking about, we're talking fundimentals of the creative process, be it any genre. Also, if you were to walk onto a modern music site, you'd see similar threads... how is that any different, here?

I can safetly say that my life revolves around the exploration and creation of media: namely music, film, and games. These ARE important to me, and they appear to be important to some of the other people here too.
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eelhouse.net
- order the new album

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Watching: Star Trek: TOS, Slayers, Doctor Who (as usual)
MeshGearFox
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« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2007, 02:48:42 PM »

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For starters, I don't appreciate being called an idiot.


I didn't call you an idiot. Re-read the post. That bit was not directed at you.

Quote
you still have to cover the costs of producing enough copies of the game and shipping them to stores.


Right, right. I was more talking about development costs. I'd consider the actual printing more of a publishing cost sort of thing. Or at least I'd consider it seperate, since other than adopting a downloadable content method (in which case you're still probably paying for ad listings and bandwidth) it's not really a cost you can do much about.

Quote
So you'd rather Game developers give up the high budget, epic, unbelievable technology and genre pushing games


I haven't seen many games I've called 'genre pushing' released since 2000. I could maybe think of a few games if I spent some time at it, but...

I also have to admit that I'm really not one to be that impressed by technology. I mean, it's nice having really fast processors and tons of memory, but it's nothing unexpected. It's been a pretty steady progression. Software wise, the technology's also being used in a pretty predictable way. They're creating really pretty and quite fast 3D games with hardware that's specifically made to do really pretty 3D games as fast as possible.

I guess my problem is that they're spending all of this money on games, getting the A/V aspects more immersive, but the gameplay's still the same stuff we've been seeing for almost a decade now.

As for exclusives, I meant what Eusis said.

Also, Mass Effect's dialogue system really doesn't sound THAT revolutionary. But it's definitely something I'd like to see in action first before I pass judgement on it. Write-ups are often misleading.

Quote
but some of us want games to become an immersive, deep experience.


There were games that were deep and immersive experience before development costs got insanely expensive.

But I'm not really sure why I need incredibly detailed water shaders or lip animation to be immersed.
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o/` I do not feel joy o/`
o/` I do not dream o/`
o/` I only stare at the door and smoke o/`

thesearingstar
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« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2007, 02:50:31 PM »

Except in order for it to be a working discussion it has to be free of knee-jerk reactions caused by a contributor's inability to keep their emotions at check. It's one thing to have an opinion about something, which is inherently backed by emotions. It's another thing to breech the container withholding them and have it spill across these message boards in a show of vulgarity and tastelessness.

Attacking other community members in a burst of heated emotion is an exercise of poor judgment.
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Eusis
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« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2007, 02:51:32 PM »

Quote from: "Thoren"
So you'd rather Game developers give up the high budget, epic, unbelievable technology and genre pushing games to churn out the SAME SHIT with half assed graphics and gameplay? Sorry, maybe in the fantasy land you came from game's don't cost money, but games cost a shit ton to develop these days. You've probably played with RPGMaker, I get it, but real games are developed differently.

In a way that seems like admitting games are all more or less the same with no innovation, so the only thing to do is pretty up the presentation. It's not like innovation is impossible in 2D nowadays, new stuff can still be done either on a low budget or a high budget. I do feel however that publishers need to take some risks on the cheaper platforms and start allowing new development teams to try out their new ideas on the DS or downloadable services, then work on to bigger budget stuff.

I also went and instinctively fixed a typo because Firefox pointed it out... Despite it being what I'm quoting, not my reply.

Edit: And I seem to have the best luck in this thread with crap appearing between the last post I read and my newest. At least this time there isn't anything I can really think to add to.
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SabreWulf11887
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« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2007, 02:58:02 PM »

*Sigh*  What she will bitch about next?
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D-Rider
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« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2007, 03:07:59 PM »

Quote from: "Prime Mover"
Quote from: "The Darkrider"
Check your emotions at the door, people.  It's fucking video games.
While I agree that people need to "tone it down", I disagree to your reasoning. It's NOT just video games we're talking about, we're talking fundimentals of the creative process, be it any genre. Also, if you were to walk onto a modern music site, you'd see similar threads... how is that any different, here?


I'm not talking about the creative process.  I'm talking about people getting riled up over fucking entertainment.  Don't read any more into what I said than that.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2007, 04:15:42 PM »

Quote
Attacking other community members in a burst of heated emotion is an exercise of poor judgment.


Again, I didn't call you an idiot. It's supposed to read like "When you sink tens of thousands of millions of dollar's into developing a game... Then you're an idiot with no sense of economy or efficiency."

I'm sorry it came out wrong but it really, really wasn't directed at you.
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thesearingstar
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« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2007, 05:15:01 PM »

Or it's simply a matter of how much games costs.... and have cost. Wasn't Final Fantasy VII/VIII 7+million dollars to develop, and that was for the PSOne and the limited capabilities that console could provide? Multiply that to whatever power the PS2 or PS3 boasts. There's so much economics involved in any undertaking, game development included. You're paying various people for various services rendered based on various scales (hourly, salary, royalties, etc.) There's simply no way to skirt around atleast dropping a few million on developing a title given the complexity of video games (programming, 3-D modeling, art design, animation, audio, scripting, etc.).

At the end of the day, we all want to be reimbursed for our hard work accordingly. If making a game a certain kind of way is no longer profitable then it is time to go back to the drawing board. There is a reason the sort of comedy movies prevalent in the 70's, 80's, or early 90's are no longer being made today. Audiences grow up, their tastes change. New generations come into the picture with an entirely different taste then their predecessors. It's the nature of the beast. If whoever makes it possible for you to develop games--say, Sony with Insomniac games--knocks on your door and demands an outstanding First Person Shooter to debut the PS3 with well, you answer their call and just hope to god all the money you sink into the project can be made back.
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« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2007, 07:22:20 PM »

If we're talking economics, and this is a total tangent, I'm still surprised that video games still cost around $50.  A brand new game cost that much in the NES days and with higher production values, more advanced technology, more people to pay (i.e. voice actors) and all those trappings of modern video games, I'm still amazed that video game prices haven't inflated even more.  Although with the price of admission for newer consoles like the PS3 and Xbox360, we're starting to see that some.  

As far as if it ain't broke don't fix it goes, Dragon Quest and Memories Off are two series that follow that credo to a T.  Fans of those series like it fine that way.  Conversely, other video game series do take risks and try to change things up from one game to another (like many modern FF games).  Viva la difference.  There's something for everyone.  People who take comfort in the familiar tried and true usuals can do that in some games.  People who crave the fresh, exotic, and exciting can do that in other games.  

In terms of another tangent, I'm thinking about how McDonald's is trying to market itself toward healthy eating (totally pushing the salads) whereas Burger King is marketing toward the "hard core" fast food eaters or whatever they were called in the film Supersize Me (pushing the BK stackers: meat, cheese, no veggies.)  Yet at their core, both McD's and BK are burger and fry joints.
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