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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Eusis
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« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2007, 04:15:50 PM »

As long as you had the appropiate items, you could go somewhere in a Zelda game. At least that's how it was in Zelda 1-OoT (if not OoT, then at least LA) as I recall it. There's some that require certain events, IE beating all 3 of the first dungeons to get the Master Sword then proceed to the second set of dungeons, then beating all of those dungeons to reach the final one or at least one of the last ones. TP uses plot events instead to force the game down a specific order. I don't really mind when the games only have, like, 4 dungeons total like MM (maybe that had sequence breaking too, never really checked), it just felt completely unnecessary for the rigidity gameplay-wise in TP. They could at least let me use the items I just got at these new dungeons. Meh. :P
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« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2007, 05:24:47 PM »

Not really, I don't know about Link's Awakening (I need to borrow a GBA to play it, damnit!) but Link to the Past (which came before LA) had little to no sequence breaking... if there was, they were usually glitches. The major sequence breaking basically ended after Zelda2. OoT had absolutely NO sequence breaking. Seeing as though OoT is 10 years old, "as of late" doesn't really apply... the series has not been about sequence breaking for almost two decades now.
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Eusis
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« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2007, 05:42:47 PM »

Lemme just point out my first sentence again.
Quote from: "Eusis"
As long as you had the appropriate items, you could go somewhere in a Zelda game.

I clearly recall finishing every dungeon in the Dark World BUT the third because I had no clue how to get into the part of the 3rd with the boss, and I'm pretty sure the same happened for the 7th in LA because I didn't know how to get past a puzzle. For the most part, you DO have to at least enter the dungeon and get far enough to get it's requisite item, but that's it. Heck, I think there was nothing stopping me from going to the 4th before the 3rd in regards to LttP's Dark World dungeons.

Unless you don't consider that sequence breaking, but hey, if they slapped a number on it, then that seems to be telling me to get through them in a specific order. You could possibly argue it was just a necessary result of the design of the day, but screw it. It gave the games a more open feel, and not this JRPG-like rigidity, I'd like it if it was kept to the absolutely essential.

Edit: I also think I beat the 3rd pre-Master Sword dungeon before the second just for fun.
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« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2007, 06:43:28 PM »

You do have a point, but I think it's kinda silly to call it sequence breaking. I mean, the item is usually 2/3rds the way through the dungeon, anyway, why not just finish it and get the heart piece? You sorta have to go out of your way NOT to sequence break, in that case.

Also, I don't think anything is stopping you from doing that in OoT - Twilight Princess. The basic construction of how the plot is advanced is the same: get item, and you can go to the next area. Now, the fact that they're putting in a lot of story elements that force certain things to happen in order may cut down on that, but I wouldn't argue that that's a BAD thing. But, yeah, aside from having to get rid of the twilight realm before going into the dungeons, I don't think there's a whole lot stopping you from walking out of a dungeon with the main item, and going to the next.

The original Legend of Zelda didn't rely on items being the thing that would help you solve the puzzles. In fact, if you stood around and slaughtered a bunch of enemies, you could practically buy all the items before ever going into a dungeon.

The one major thing that OoT offered (and this if fairly minor), is that the last two dungeons, the Spirt Temple, and the Shadow Temple, could be done in either order, because they requried the same items to get in. But that was sort of unique to that game.
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« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2007, 07:16:46 PM »

segment breaking fails unless a reward for doing so. example star ocean 3 rewarded the player for exploring each map. however it doesnt have to be that obvious some dungeons have nice treasures if you stray from the path that leads to the goal. also guys dont forget videogames are entertainment before they are art. one of the more artistic games imo shadow of the colossus barely has a story but is still highly entertaining. also these themes you speak of most likely fly right over most gamers heads. when i was playing valkyrie profile 2 i wasnt thinking of any themes. heck i dont even think of them in a game like crono cross,but i do love connecting the dots between CT and CC. i can be quite content accepting things at face value.
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« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2007, 11:00:35 PM »

Quote
OoT had absolutely NO sequence breaking.


It had a part where you could do about three or so dungeons in any order, I think. Water, Fire, and some other temple.

Quote
The original Legend of Zelda didn't rely on items being the thing that would help you solve the puzzles.


Quite. Same for... the second, sort of. The Theme Item Per Dungeon gimmick is a tad oldish... And the whole "Item X has limited use outside of it's intended dungeon" DEFINITELY was in LttP.

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star ocean 3 rewarded the player for exploring each map.


Yeah, but this was, like, broken. While the idea was to "explore" the map,it was based on completely filling in the map. And doing so was stupid, because the area that got filled in on the map was very tiny in relation to your character, and you'd basically have to do two passed per each 'corridor' to fill it in on the map completely.
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« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2007, 05:09:41 PM »

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"
...because the area that got filled in on the map was very tiny in relation to your character, and you'd basically have to do two passed per each 'corridor' to fill it in on the map completely.


Yes, this was really broken. I mean, wasn't the point so that you would go everywhere and explore everything? Seriously, walking down a coridor twice does NOT constitute new exploration. If a game's going to do something like that, have it be based on visual confirmation... have a 60 degree arc (or whatever the field of view is on games these days) that expands out in front of your character for about 20 feet, and fill in everything inside of that. If the hallway is any less than 30 feet wide, and you're walking in the center, it gets filled in as you go, as it should be, because you're actually able to see everything along the walls.
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eelhouse.net
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Eusis
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« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2007, 05:13:24 PM »

I think the real problem there was that there were lots of little, just-out-of-your-reach edge areas that had to be filled in. So you'd complete a map as far as normal gameplay would require, but because tri-Ace is insane there's a lot of crap around the edges that's a pain in the ass to fill in.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2007, 07:10:56 PM »

I also recall a few dungeons where it wasn't really possible to get 100% although maybe I just suck at the game.
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« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2007, 07:50:56 PM »

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"
I also recall a few dungeons where it wasn't really possible to get 100% although maybe I just suck at the game.


It can be done, you have to hug the walls though, a ridiculous gameplay device. The rewards aren't worth it either.
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Alisha
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« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2007, 01:15:57 AM »

whether the device worked perfectly is not the point. exploring fucking sucks unless there is some type of reward. nothing pisses me off more than being stuck because i cant find out where to go next. and if you think it wasnt worth it all i have to say is lol......even at the end of the game i could easily spend all my cash upgrading weapons and/or armor and the statues were a nice source of cash.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2007, 03:14:36 AM »

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whether the device worked perfectly is not the point.


It's not that it doesn't work perfectly. It's that it doesn't work at all.

also, the rewards were usually those goddamn rabbit statues that did all of jack and &**!. Sure, you can sell them. Yey. That's not an interesting rewards. That's money.

It's also an incredibly contrived and meta-game rewards system. You know how to make exploration rewarding? Maybe adopt a system where you get experience for doing quests or just FIND strange, out of the way stuff, like in Deus Ex.

Better yet. You want a reason to explore? Okay. Those chest you usually have in dungeons. Put items in them that are ACTUALLY DESIREABLE. Make dungeon layouts INTERESTING. And maybe make NPCs and special encounters a bit more robust so there's a point in actually finding then.

I know I brandish Ultima 7 a lot, but really, it does pretty much a lot of the stuff I want done. Ultima 7 exploration had purpose because you generally found stuff, and it wasn't just getting paid for map completion. It ranged from bizarre, amusing NPC-related events to party members to the "Hoe of Death."

Telling the player to explore incredibly poorly designed and remarkably empty dungeons, not to FIND stuff int he dungeons, but just to complete some map, and then just dishing out some arbitrary, out-of-game reward, is not a good way to encourage exploration. It is a good way of encouraing me to not give a flying !@#%.
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« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2007, 03:33:33 AM »

i love meta game stuff. in fact that phrase reminds me of a game i loved in high school. magic the gathering. if you really delved into and abused the item creation system money was in short supply. if you knew what you were doing you could make a godly metal pipe.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2007, 09:42:16 PM »

Alisha, dawg, no offense, but nothing in that post made sense.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2007, 03:26:14 AM »

Just because I started playing it again lately... Dwarf Fortress.

http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2006/09/end-of-disenfranchisement-through.html

That blog post is really interesting and I think it hits the nail on the bong on a lot of points.

Here's another idea I'm deriving from that post. People want to influence the world in games? Makes sense. But it isn't exactly feasible. I mean, the world's pretty damn big, so maybe you CAN'T influence it at large, logically.

also, did I already mention that 'emergent characterization' think I was thinking about?

Anyway, in summation, if you do an open-ended game right -- and I mean really, truly, absolutely right -- then it's not just having a linear plotline where you can go off and explore at will, or a semi-linear plotline, ie, preset events that can occur in varying orders.

If you do it really, really right, you don't HAVE any set plot or story. Instead, you have a sort of history that emerges from your actions. That's what dwarf fortress does -- and this isn't just some side thing. It's a definite intent. The sort of "history tracking" the game does is enormous and deep. Even if you can't change the world at large, everything you do ultimately WILL leave some underlying mark on the world. It's this extra step of permanence that changes things completely. Other games HAVE offered this sort of freedom, but only a few work in such a way that allows for stories as emergent behavior.
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