Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
September 01, 2014, 05:03:09 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
RPGFan Community Quiz
Next Quiz Date: January 11, 2014
Subject: 999 (Nintendo DS)
For more information click HERE!
330102 Posts in 13528 Topics by 2179 Members
Latest Member: Lian_Kazairl
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  RPGFan Message Boards
|-+  The Rest
| |-+  General Discussions
| | |-+  Wow.....China bans reincarnation w/o goverment approval
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Author Topic: Wow.....China bans reincarnation w/o goverment approval  (Read 5529 times)
Logick
Posts: 531


Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« on: August 20, 2007, 03:35:38 PM »

http://www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/88872/China_Bans_Reincarnation_Without_Govt_Permission
Logged

"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing."
~Malcolm X
Hidoshi
RPGFan's Open Source Field Agent
Posts: 2901


Built This House

Member
*

clothothespinner@hotmail.com BrandingRune
View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2007, 04:05:10 PM »

I think "Recognition of" instead of "permission" is the right word, but HEY they banned religion in general for like 50 years. "No God/Dao/Buddha unless we say so!"

Dickheads.
Logged
GrimReality
Dark Lord of Nostalgia
Posts: 2812


OK, options aren't SO bad

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2007, 04:45:41 PM »

This is serious? Sounds like something out of the Onion. The government seems to be giving the idea of reincarnation some legitimacy by trying to control it. Considering the whole idea of reincarnation is ludicrous, let alone being able to have control over it even if it were possible, I don't think anyone has anything to worry about. Bizarre.
Logged

Playing:
Reading: Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson
Hidoshi
RPGFan's Open Source Field Agent
Posts: 2901


Built This House

Member
*

clothothespinner@hotmail.com BrandingRune
View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2007, 06:22:23 PM »

I think you may have the whole issue skewed.

Now, ignoring the whole flamebait "reincarnation is ludicrous" statement, the government is not trying to legitimatise reincarnation at all. It's trying to legitimatise its own control over an occupied territory and its culture. Think back to the British Raj and placing restrictions on India, or to France and Viet Nam. It's essentially the same here. The reason the Chinese government wants control over something as difficult to tie down as reincarnation is that it theoretically deprives Tibetans of their cultural heritage and right to choose their spiritual leaders.

In effect, this is little more than a scheme to undermine the religious freedoms of an entire population.
Logged
Hathen
Posts: 1945


FORUM IDIOT

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2007, 11:03:39 PM »

I don't think it's as simple as it seems, the Dalai Lama was driven out of political power several hundred years ago in Tibet, and after a war with India, China successfully regained Tibet. I think this is a (rather inefficient, though) way of preventing the Dalai Lama from attempting to regain political power within Tibet. The Dalai Lama has been working with India to get independence for Tibet for a while now, But that's not really something China is going to allow.

It's not an easy issue, you can't just say "lol china is teh totalitarianism", they have a lot more trouble keeping their regions from going for independence than the US does. The last time that happened was during The American Civil War, and the US wasn't exactly very nice to the South either.
Logged
Ashton
Contributing Editor
Posts: 5066


Lawful Asshole

Member
*


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2007, 11:19:35 PM »

"BLAH BLAH TOTALITARIANISM BLAH BLAH COMMIES BLAH BLAH I LIKE TALKING ABOUT PLACES I'VE NEVER BEEN TO OR SEEN BEFORE!"

Seriously though, this is just gonna end up as one of those "haha funny laws" we see, like those in America, because how do you even control reincarnation? The people who made this law were morons, but so are people who are outraging over it.
Logged

Ryos
I can has demons?
Posts: 1700


Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2007, 01:01:46 AM »

Eh, there were plenty worse things the Communist government did to Buddhists over the years, so I'm not really too surprised at this.  At least it isn't the second Cultural Revolution or something.
Logged

It's never too late to start learning; it's always too early to stop learning.
Lucid
Posts: 315


Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2007, 02:00:35 AM »

I think the Chinese government has much worse issues going on, but this is still quite silly.
Logged
Hidoshi
RPGFan's Open Source Field Agent
Posts: 2901


Built This House

Member
*

clothothespinner@hotmail.com BrandingRune
View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2007, 02:24:20 AM »

Quote from: "Leyviur"
"BLAH BLAH TOTALITARIANISM BLAH BLAH COMMIES BLAH BLAH I LIKE TALKING ABOUT PLACES I'VE NEVER BEEN TO OR SEEN BEFORE!"

Seriously though, this is just gonna end up as one of those "haha funny laws" we see, like those in America, because how do you even control reincarnation? The people who made this law were morons, but so are people who are outraging over it.


Thinly veiled nationalism doesn't negate the reality of political control, Ashton. They are, in effect, saying that only the government may recognise positions like the Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama, Karmapa, etc. Considering how deeply ingrained the spiritual lives of the Tibetan people are with Buddhism, it would be extremely difficult to deal with the government "recognising" its own Buddhist teachers. This has some pretty far-reaching consequences.

Quote from: "Hathen"
I don't think it's as simple as it seems, the Dalai Lama was driven out of political power several hundred years ago in Tibet, and after a war with India, China successfully regained Tibet. I think this is a (rather inefficient, though) way of preventing the Dalai Lama from attempting to regain political power within Tibet. The Dalai Lama has been working with India to get independence for Tibet for a while now, But that's not really something China is going to allow.

It's not an easy issue, you can't just say "lol china is teh totalitarianism", they have a lot more trouble keeping their regions from going for independence than the US does. The last time that happened was during The American Civil War, and the US wasn't exactly very nice to the South either.


While the second part of what you're saying is true, there is some controversy on the first. The Dalai Lama was in political power until the 1950's, when the central government at Lhasa was deposed by the PRC government. While the Chinese government has often cited things like the Qing and Yuan dynasties' relations with Tibet as precedent for "authority", it's a fairly weak argument.

One because neither was a Han government. Jurchans/Manchurians and Mongolians were not part of China proper (and the latter isn't at all), and in fact can be seen as occupying forces. In the Yuan case especially, the Mongolians were seen as an oppressive force who allowed for little actual Chinese involvement in government. Therefore this cannot be a precedent at all.

Secondly, there has never been credible evidence to capitulation on the Tibetan government's part to the Qing authority, and certainly never to a Han Chinese authority. Prior to the Yuan dynasty, the most influence China ever had in Tibetan was the marriage of Wen Cheng to Songtsan Gampo. Being that she was the niece of Emperor Tai-tsung (Li Shih Min) of the Tang Dynasty, this was an important marriage, but has nothing to do with Chinese authority over Tibet.

It is important to note that in this case particularly, Tibet became a complete nation under Songtsan Gampo and would remain so until the invasion by the Mongolians under Guyuk Khan in 1240. Even so, the Mongolians recognised the Sakya (a sect of Tibetan Buddhism) as the sovereign religious authority of their empire shortly thereafter.

Now, on this point, Altan Khan in the 1570's was a subordinate of the Ming dynasty government, and did invite the spiritual leader of Tibet, Sonam Gyatso to modern-day Qinghai. While the current Chinese government claims that Altan Khan bestowed the title "Dalai Lama" upon Sonam Gyatso, no other government recognises this, and there are not actual historical sources to verify it. Therefore even this appointment by another power is suspect, especially considering the source.

The PRC has every interest in controlling Tibetan politics, and by extension, religious and secular affairs. Why is really beyond me, as there is little to be gained through control of Tibet, save perhaps to keep a secure border with India. It may also be seen as something of a historical grudge match dating back to the days when the Mongolians and, by extension the Tibetans, lorded over the Han Chinese. Whatever the reason, this "official recognition of reincarnation" is just another attempt at controlling how Tibetan society works.

Whether or not it will work, it creates some chaos in the Tibetan effort for independence and religious freedom. There's nothing more undermining than someone agreeing with your structure and then virally usurping it. That's essentially what this is. The PRC realised some years ago that it couldn't eradicate religion, least of all Buddhism from its own culture, nor from Tibet, and instead decided to regulate it. The trick is, because Tibet used to be a theocracy, the political and religious powers are somewhat intertwined. This creates a bit of a problem where legitimacy is concerned.
Logged
Hathen
Posts: 1945


FORUM IDIOT

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2007, 02:36:41 AM »

That's the problem, they need to be able to determine who the Dalai Lama because it wasn't very long ago when the Dalai Lama was both a spiritual and political leader, and strived for independence in Tibet, which China doesn't want.

China isn't just doing this for kicks.
Logged
Hidoshi
RPGFan's Open Source Field Agent
Posts: 2901


Built This House

Member
*

clothothespinner@hotmail.com BrandingRune
View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2007, 02:44:22 AM »

That's not a problem. Tibetans aren't Chinese and never were. They're probably closer to Mongolians and Nepalese in culture than anywhere near the Chinese. The 5th Dalai Lama codified Tibetan politics and helped its culture flourish. The 13th and 14th both evaded Chinese attempts to control the Tibetan government and have so far at least preserved the culture. If not for the 14th Dalai Lama's utter refusal to give in, Tibetan Buddhism and culture may very well have disappeared in the wake of the Cultural Revolution and everything since.
Logged
Hathen
Posts: 1945


FORUM IDIOT

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2007, 03:09:56 AM »

Tibetians arn't Chinese, but thousands of Chinese have lived in Tibet for a long time, and the Dalai Lama (Not sure which number, though) once tried to drive them out in order to establish themselves as an independent country. I doubt China's intention is to delete their culture here, it's just difficult to stop something like this from going out of control without looking like an ass.

The argument here is that Tibet has already arguably strongly established itself as a territory of China for a long time, much like Xinjiang, and China is going to do what it takes to keep it that way. It's not a black-white situation where China is a suppressing evil superpower.
Logged
Ashton
Contributing Editor
Posts: 5066


Lawful Asshole

Member
*


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2007, 03:14:35 AM »

Every country exists in order to expand their own political power. I'd be hard pressed to find a country that DOESN'T. It doesn't matter through what measn this power is achieved, countries will do whatever they can to assure themselves more power in the end.
Logged

Hidoshi
RPGFan's Open Source Field Agent
Posts: 2901


Built This House

Member
*

clothothespinner@hotmail.com BrandingRune
View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2007, 03:36:52 AM »

Ashton:
That's a basic justification of imperialism, and not necessarily true in the global marketplace. While wealth has become the commodity, territory is less and less an issue of modern government. We have a standard of human rights, self-determination of a culture, etc for a reason. While some things cannot be reversed given overwhelming circumstances (re: Native American/Canadian status'), others can be (re: Tibetan self-determination).

Hathen:
That would be the 14th's government, who did indeed try that to reinforce Tibetan independence. And there is no saying "arguably". It is only arguable based on 50 years of occupation -- and it is just that, occupation. One might as well say Sikkim or Nepal is a part of India for sharing the Hindu religion, or that Sri Lanka is a part of India as well. They aren't because of their distinct cultures and governments.

Even then, a country which has been occupied for a long time is under no obligation to surrender itself to its occupying power. Otherwise the USSR might still well be one nation (and we all know how badly that went). Or for other examples, Mexico would be part of Spain, the USA, Canada, and other nations part of the British Empire, etc. The Tibetans are no more Chinese than the Indians under British rule were English. Yes there's a genetic link (Indo-European, Sino-Tibetan), but that doesn't really mean anything.

In relation to the Xinjiang/Xinjang issue by the way, the Chinese central government has little interest in oppressing the Uygher population. One because there has never been a central Uygher government to speak of, and two because the Uyghers have been historically intertwined with the Han population. The Tibetans are a different matter completely. Even if Tibet is kept as part of China, the central government has no right to control the religious aspects of a culture. That much should be the right of the culture's own institutions. It is here especially that the PRC has been ill-equipped to deal with multiculturalism, owing to its communist (and therefore somewhat homogenous) policies. That much has to change.
Logged
Ashton
Contributing Editor
Posts: 5066


Lawful Asshole

Member
*


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2007, 03:42:06 AM »

Quote from: "Hidoshi"
That's a basic justification of imperialism, and not necessarily true in the global marketplace. While wealth has become the commodity, territory is less and less an issue of modern government. We have a standard of human rights, self-determination of a culture, etc for a reason. While some things cannot be reversed given overwhelming circumstances (re: Native American/Canadian status'), others can be (re: Tibetan self-determination).

Meaning, it's only justified if you approve of it?
Logged

Pages: [1] 2 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!